Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

[dcontroversal]

The blood of Christ.

When God looks down on the mercy seat, He will not see the stone tablets, The rod that budded, or the manna (sybolising all the things God has against me, and condemn me) he will see the blood sprinkled on the mercy seat. that blood of redemption that set me free, and allows Gods justice to be satisfied completely (justification)

for you, Yeah, I guess you will have your works, Good luck with that..

AMEN....the simplicity found in Christ<---WHEN I SEE the blood I WILL PASS OVER YOU (in judgment)

 

[dcontroversal]

I am looking at that and his drivers education comment, And wondering, Is that dumb, or dumber?

Either or......pick<----both would be right..........

 

[dcontroversal]

Many of us did not get it at one time, But we have found the light, We have to pray he sees the light soon.

Amen.....TIME IS SHORT....NO ONE IS GUARANTEED ANOTHER SECOND!

 

[dcontroversal]

Imagine I say I will only accept a pure spotless car to buy.
Someone comes along with a rubbish car with everything shot to pieces but with a note
saying the spotless car says it is ok.

I still have a rubbish car that I will reject.

Now to say the bill for repair has been paid in full, and the rubbish car has been made
completely spotless then ofcourse I am happy, because I have a spotless car.

Now imputed righteousness is the rubbish car analogy, but it fails at the first step.

Jesus gave the analogy of wheat, the precious corn and the chaff.
The corn is the heart of someone remade, purified and made whole in love and with love
pouring out. It is this that the Lord is talking about,

The chaff is just the show, the outer coating, the appearance, the stuff we do and say
and the protection of the inner being and heart of a person.

We cannot make our hearts pure, or bring about birth from heaven, but we are involved
in purification and cleansing, sowing and walking in obedience. These are all part of the
remaking and rebuilding that is needed.

Now for those who know no progress or see the hearts as a place they do not go, all this
language appears meaningless. I speak for those who know this reality inside themselves
and desire to know the Lord like this. Jesus promises for those who open the door He will
come in and eat with them.

So our righteousness is that which Christ builds within us, but it is not imputed.

Imagine believing and acknowledging the truth......and actually using biblical examples instead of imaginary stories with no real spiritual value......

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by eternally-gratefull

The blood of Christ.

When God looks down on the mercy seat, He will not see the stone tablets, The rod that budded, or the manna (sybolising all the things God has against me, and condemn me) he will see the blood sprinkled on the mercy seat. that blood of redemption that set me free, and allows Gods justice to be satisfied completely (justification)

personally I think God will see ALL, but the blood will cover them.

 

[dcontroversal]

I agree. What some believe here in CC is obviously a works-based self-righteousness that use the name of Jesus but in reality they are denying the work of Christ on the cross and resurrection.

Righteousness is received by grace through faith in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection alone.

They stumble in their own works-based belief system which is a self-righteousness based on what they do or don't do.

Righteousness to them is based on them and it is an anti-Christ belief system that denies Christ Himself and His work for us.

All works-based mindsets which are really a product of the world system acting exactly like the Jews thought - if they kept the law of Moses - then they will be righteous.

Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

I know.....Imagine the fallacy of trying to establish your own righteousness.....ME <---I will gladly plead the righteousness of Christ, because anything less is exactly that....LESS

 

[dcontroversal]

Your right, A baby who leaves his mothers womb, before he even starts crying is dead to God, Because they are IN ADAM. which means Adams sin was imputed to you and I at birth before we committed 1 sin.

John the baptist is a special case. in a special time.. he had a purpose to serve from birth. He still needed a savior.

AMEN to that........did not David say, "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

 

[dcontroversal]

personally I think God will see ALL, but the blood will cover them.[/B][/COLOR]

This reeks of error....Their sins will I place as far as the East is from the WEST and....Their sins and iniquities I will remember no more.....

It is clear that when God looks at a true believer he sees the RIGHTEOUSNESS of his SON JESUS.....wake up man!

 

[valiant]

Now all I am suggesting is your imputed ideas are not right, but the result
is the same, and these really matter.

God imputes Christ's righteousness to us. We are reckoned as righteous though we are not in practise (Rom 4.4-5).

As sinners convicted of sin, we obviously feel rejected by God.

Initially yes.

But as we walk closer to His image and character, more and more of our lives become a reflection of His will.

But this is only possible after we have been justified and reborn,

It then becomes clearer that our sin is the result of the separation, and when
we are born apart from God, we are born without communion.

we are separated because of our sin,

What complicates this is being deemed holy through the believing parent.
So as a child before we reach the age of majority, we are deemed saved,
destined for glory.

That is pure assumption, and in fact wrong.

If we walk away from God then we loose this salvation or communion.

Never. Nowhere is that suggested.

So it is not a simple idea of imputed sin from adam, because then children of believers have no grace if they die before the reach the age of responsibility.

who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Now we know why you are so wrong!!

 

[valiant]

This reeks of error....Their sins will I place as far as the East is from the WEST and....Their sins and iniquities I will remember no more.....

It is clear that when God looks at a true believer he sees the RIGHTEOUSNESS of his SON JESUS.....wake up man!

you can think that God is blind. I do not. He remembers their sin no more, He does not forget them.

He sees the righteousness of Christ, but He is fully aware of what lies before,

 

[Utah]

Imputed righteousness is a neat trick, but in the end, it does not work.

You hear that Jesus? What you did on the Cross wasn't good enough. But thanks for giving it the old Boy Scout try.

 

[Rockrz]

Amen.....TIME IS SHORT....NO ONE IS GUARANTEED ANOTHER SECOND!

Not according to what the Lord says in Psalms 91... but, the promise of long life is only available to those that dwell in the secret place of the Most High and to those that set their love upon Him and call upon Him in trouble expecting to be delivered of the Lord.

In the New Covenant this is a picture of walking in the Spirit and not after the flesh.

[FONT=&quot]Psalms 91:1-16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
He that dwells in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty....I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in Him will I trust....surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler (devil), and from the noisome pestilence (wicked and perverse plagues)....He shall cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you shall trust: His truth (God’s Word) shall be your shield and buckler....you shall not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flies by day....nor for the pestilence (plague, disease) that walks in darkness; nor for the destruction that wastes at noonday....a thousand shall fall at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand; but it shall not come near you....only with your eyes shall you look and see the reward of the wicked....because you have made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, your habitation....there shall no evil come near you, neither shall any plague come near your dwelling....for He shall give his angels charge over you, to keep you in all your ways....they shall bear (help, hold up) you up in their hands, lest you stumble your foot against a stone....you shall tread upon the lion and adder (the twisted): the young lion and the dragon (serpent) you shall trample under foot....because he hath set his love upon Me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he has known My Name....he shall call upon Me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honor him....with long life will I satisfy him, and show him my salvation (deliverance).


People still believe all of God's Word, right?

There's some serious promises in Psalms 91... but it does appear that one must engage the Lord in a close personal relationship in order to live [/FONT][FONT=&quot]in the secret place of the Most High.

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

Now, the exception to having a long life would of course being caught up in the Lord's catchin away of His faithful in which case... one would be bypassing death altogether which is a win win!
[/FONT]

 

[Rockrz]

You hear that Jesus? What you did on the Cross wasn't good enough. But thanks for giving it the old Boy Scout try.

Did Jesus not control what went in to the Book of James?

Lots of scriptures tell us that ultimately our responsibility is to actually turn away from darkness and walk with the Lord, as His grace empowers us to be in an actual relationship with Him... those that don't will be shocked to find Jesus was serious in what He said here:

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I've heard some popular preaches claim this is not talking about Christians... even though sinners out in the world don't call Jesus Lord.

 

[Grace777x70]

Notice that in Matt 7:19-33..Jesus said:

"I never knew you "...these people were not believers...

( Jesus never said " I used to know you once.". He said I NEVER knew you at all...).

Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....because He is Lord and will be for eternity.

Jesus said that He "knows" His sheep so those in Matt. 7:19-33 are not true Christians.

John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.


Everyone will call Jesus "Lord" when they see Him because He is Lord - including those that think they did their own works to be righteous. It is only the righteousness of Christ that counts in the kingdom of God.

Matt. 7:23 - Those that work iniquity ( which is lawlessness ) are those that are not relying on the righteousness of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection. Unbelief in Christ's work is lawlessness.

 

[Grace777x70]

Also if we take the time to read Matt. 7 "in context" - we will see that the subject is false prophets - not real Christians that have been saved and sealed by the Holy Spirit. Eph. 1:13

We are safe in Christ. He is our Savior - not ourselves. That is called "works-righteousness" but the true Christian lives by "faith righteousness" which is all based on grace through faith in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

It is important we read all scripture in context and through the finished work of Christ or else we can make the scriptures say anything we want.

Matthew 7:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.


There is a whole thread about this here in the link below.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/149811-fruit-works.html

 

[Rockrz]

Yes, and He also pointed out that in John 15:2 ... Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away

Jesus said "In ME" so He is definitely speaking about those that have been translated from darkness into the Kingdom of God's Dear Son speaking of those that are In Christ (see Colossians 1:13)

 

[zone]

Romans 3
Righteousness through Faith
…22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.…

 

[wsblind]

This reeks of error....Their sins will I place as far as the East is from the WEST and....Their sins and iniquities I will remember no more.....

It is clear that when God looks at a true believer he sees the RIGHTEOUSNESS of his SON JESUS.....wake up man!

I can see both points being made.

Christ is going to have the only man made things in Heaven.........His scars and being true humanity forever.

When He looks at us, it is true that we are seen as clean as snow,because of His righteousness. But He will forever carry those scars, and be true humanity for eternity.

 

[JesusRules1]

Notice that in Matt 7:19-33..Jesus said:

"I never knew you "...these people were not believers...

( Jesus never said " I used to know you once.". He said I NEVER knew you at all...).

Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....because He is Lord and will be for eternity.

Jesus said that He "knows" His sheep so those in Matt. 7:19-33 are not true Christians.

John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.


Everyone will call Jesus "Lord" when they see Him because He is Lord - including those that think they did their own works to be righteous. It is only the righteousness of Christ that counts in the kingdom of God.

Matt. 7:23 - Those that work iniquity ( which is lawlessness ) are those that are not relying on the righteousness of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection. Unbelief in Christ's work is lawlessness.

These people that said Lord,Lord,but could not dwell with Jesus,were not unbelievers,for they labored for the kingdom of God,but Jesus said they did not do the will of the Father,so there was more to it than what they believed claiming to be a Christian,and they fell short,for many are called,but few are chosen.

No person calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit,which these people were not part of the people that will bow before Jesus,that did not do it on earth,but they claimed Jesus as Lord on earth,and was surprised that they could not dwell with Him by stating we labored for the kingdom,and put forth an effort to extend the kingdom,so why can't we dwell with you.

Jesus said He never knew them,for they confessed Jesus as Lord,but they did not receive the Spirit because of their wrong attitude concerning Christianity,that they did not put forth too much of an effort to be Christlike so the Spirit would not lead them.

The Bible says they have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth,and that is why Jesus never knew them,because they never came to the truth to be able to receive the Spirit,for the Spirit would not lead them with the wrong attitude they had concerning being a Christian,and they never had a relationship with Christ,for if you do not have the Spirit you do not belong to Christ.

They were believers,but you could say they were unbelievers,for they did not believe all that they should of believed.

 

[Rockrz]

Yes, and He also pointed out that in John 15:2 ... Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away

Jesus said "In ME" so He is definitely speaking about those that have been translated from darkness into the Kingdom of God's Dear Son speaking of those that are In Christ (see Colossians 1:13)

In this next scripture Jesus plainly tells us it's entirely possible to receive God's Word and later it is choked out and there is no fruit:

Mark 4:13-20
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
The sower soweth the word.
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

What do we do with Hebrews 11 that teaches us that if we are without His correction (His leading, guiding) we are not legitimate children of God?

The reason Hebrews 11 says this is because Romans 8:14 says those led by God's Spirit are God's sons... and Romans 8:13 says if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify (put to death, turn away from) the deeds of the body, you shall live.

All very clearly written to Christians