The Rapture explained in two minutes

[popeye]

Hi Pop, I did not call anyone Satan(why do you make these things up), I said that the false pre-trib rapture TEACHING is a demonic teaching and a fable and an endtime deception. Why would I call YOU Satan, you did not come up with the idea of pre-trib.

Connecting us with the demonic.

Pretty desperate on your part. It really hurts your deal,going to such desperation.

We both know why you guys need to demonize the opposition.

You are told over and over your methods are hurtful. It does not stop you.

Speaks to your character.

 

[notuptome]

It clearly states the angels gather the believers "from the four winds"...a clear reference to earth. But yes, the angels ALSO gather believers from all across God's kingdom..."from one end of the heavens to the other". Wherever any of the saints who have gone on before us are residing...they will at that time be gathered together with all other believers.

Actually its talking of re-gathering Israel into the land. Israel has been scattered into the four corners of the earth as a form of judgment for their unbelief.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[popeye]

Hi Pop: You want verses...Immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS...shall appear the sign of the Son of Man(Jesus) in heaven..and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven and He shall send His angels with the sound of a trumpet and they shall gather His chosen(Christians) Matt 24:29-31 read it and weep.

It is amazing your ONLY VERSE,we actually agree on.
You borrowed it from the pretrib doctrine.

We both believe he returns post trib. He returns WITH his saints.

No post trib rescue. You guys literally made that up.

That is WHY you have no verses. You MADE IT UP.

PLEASE, show us one,just one, post trib RAPTURE verse.

 

[popeye]

I would hate to have to defend that anemic post trib rapture "doctrine"

A "doctrine" with ZERO scriptural basis.

 

[popeye]

Remove the anti pre trib rapture rhetoric,and they are whittled down to one non verse.

One non verse.

Wow

 

[Bladerunner]

The one Jesus warned of. (He wasn't walking around the area in the late 580's BC.)

I don't know, He spoke of it (167BC) in LUKE 21.......

Having said that, I have not read his article/book.. Does he claim that there was a AoD during this destruction of the temple. It really is important..

We know that an Aod happened in 167BC. and it has to happen again. there are some (maybe you are included) that this event took place in 70AD. NOT so, and in Matthew 24, Look to verse 15.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand"

Here he calls Daniel some 500 years earlier a prophet and to be specific, it is about Daniel prophecy about the AoD.
Emphasis Added

Daniel 9:26-27...."And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, (we know this happened) but not for himself(we know why He died): and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (Who destroyed the city, Titus, Rome-the eastern LEG, Assyrians soldiers); and the end thereof shall be with a flood (surrounded by the the Roman Army), and unto the end of the war desolations (complete destruction) are determined.

27 And he (who is HE, certainly not Titus) shall confirm the covenant (Confirm not MAKE)with many (Israel,,,, see Isaiah 28:14-15)for one week(7 years): and in the midst of the week (middle of 70th week) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease (HE Breaks the Covenant), and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation (The overspreading of His Army and his declaration that he is GOD, 2 Thess 2:4)
, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.(poured out His wrath on Israel to the point that a full 2/3 of them will die)

Did this Happen in 70AD..... If so who is the Anti-christ..he is still around........

 

[MattTooFor]

People don't understand the severity of what God's wrath entails.

What in the world are you talking about? Which Bible student who has read Revelation doesn't understand about God's wrath? And why do you dodge the original question in the OP?

Realize this: You and all other PreTribbers (inadvertently or otherwise) are consigning the very pillars of the Christian movement...the original leaders of the Christian era...as believers in false doctrine. PreTrib is forced to concede it believes Peter, James and John upheld false doctrine.

Peter, James and John believed what Jesus told them...which is that they should look out for the Abomination of Desolation, followed by great tribulation, followed by the "gathering".

For PreTribbers, that is false doctrine. PreTribbers believe Peter, James and John upheld false doctrine.

PreTrib, therefore, is an absurdity.

 

[MattTooFor]

When you skirt such a simple question,I interpret that as "hiding"

Something about that simple concept really gets to you doesn't it?

Lets try it again.

Do the dead rise first as i 1 thes 4. (that would mean,simply,they precede the living in the rapture event)

I answered your question. What do you want from me? I have absolutely no idea what your point is. I already told you, yes, the "dead in Christ" rise first. So what?? Good grief, bro. Make your point. Spit it out! LOL.

 

[MattTooFor]

BUMP --


The question I have asked the various supporters of the alleged (and non-existent) "PreTrib" rapture is this:






If you could pull Peter, or James or John aside some 15 or 20 years later after this Olivet Discourse in which Jesus instructed them to live with an expectation of the Abomination of Desolation, followed by the Great tribulation, followed by the Gathering of the believers...






...and ask them: "Do you still heed the words Jesus gave you that day? Do you still live with the expectation of possibly having to encounter those events?"


As I have repeatedly said -- what ELSE would you expect Peter or James to say other than "well, of COURSE we still heed His words from that day! Why would we not?? Has someone come along with words that contradict Jesus' words? And how could that be possible that someone could contradict Jesus with this so-called 'PreTrib' doctrine you speak of??"


Some of the PreTrib proponents on this discussion board might very well counter with...


"First of all, you guys are the top leaders of the Christian movement. So you absolutely HAVE to be PreTrib. And by the way, Tim LaHaye, John MacArthur, David Jeremiah...these guys are a pretty big deal".

Peter: "Really? They're a 'big deal'?? Are they bigger than the Lord of Glory?"

 

[Bladerunner]

No, it's not "imminent". Jesus told Peter, James and John that there would first be the Abomination of Desolation, followed by the Great Tribulation which has an unknown length. Could be 2 years or so...3 years or so..."no one knows" the length of the Great Trib.

But when you have this monumental Abomination event and this massive Great Tribulation phase...and ALL of this happening before the "gathering"...that would make this "gathering" the furthest thing from "imminent"...to answer your question.

PreTrib has no such thing as "imminency" either. For one thing, Jesus told Peter he would live to old age, at which time he would be martyred. That means the ENTIRE first generation of the Christian era had no "imminency". Thus, the Doctrine of Imminency is null and void.

First let me give you some reading work about the Imminency of the Rapture. 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 John 3:2,3, Philippians 3:20; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 9:28; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 4:18; 5:6; Revelation 22:20, 1 Thessalonians 4:15,17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,1 Timothy 6:14,Hebrews 10:37,2 Thessalonians 3:10-12,James 5:8

To question your one answer....... "Jesus told Peter, James and John that there would first be the Abomination of Desolation," OK when did this happen...or has it happened....... You do know it has already happened once before. AoD that is.

 

[MattTooFor]

First let me give you some reading work about the Imminency of the Rapture.

Some "reading work"?? Just quote me a verse. We'll go from there. One verse at a time.

I already pointed you to scriptures -- the one about Peter needing to live to old age and then suffer martyrdom. How does "imminency" come back from that one??

John 21:18,19 -- [Jesus speaking to Peter] "Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to gird yourself and walk wherever you wished; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will gird you, and bring you where you do not wish to go.” Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he [Peter] ​would glorify God."

 

[Bladerunner]

I lean pre-trib but aren't bothered if that's wrong. It's a bridge waaaay too far for me to get to believe that the Rev. and vast multitude of O.T. prophecies of God's wrath have been fulfilled. You have to allegorize huge chunks of Scripture,

It is sad you are giving up to the false teachings. and two you are running out of time and three do you really realize what it is actually going to be like after the Rapture.?


My Pre-trib tidbit of the day.

God uses models or similitudes all through Scripture. The classic example is God modeling His Son being sacrificed using Abraham and Issac. But there are untold similitudes in the Bible. Here's a possible Pre-trib one.

Here you are somewhat right.... God did foretell in the Old Testament the sacrifice of His SON (ie. Abraham and Issac).. Certainly there are 'similitudes' in the Bible... Since you are using a general description and not actual verses I cannot even tell where you are at.

Having said that, There are numerous scriptures in the Bible that tells us Jesus will return "IN THE CLOUDS" (NOT EARTH) and take his church with him.

You will find that Rev. 1-6 are Chronilogical aligned. The rest is read chapter by chapter, verse by verse. OK... Once you see it,,It all fits together without leaving out anything as some suggest. Either use the WHOLE Bible or Don't use it at all.



Enoch was Pre-tribbed raptured before Judgement. Noah and his family were those protected THROUGH the judgement. In BOTH cases, the Flood, and wrath poured out in the Great Tribulation, God's judgement on unrepentant sinners who scorned His SOLE Way of Salvation, are destroyed.

Do you understand the scope of the coming Wrath of GOD>...Please take the FLOOD......ONLY 8 (eight) people lived through it. ONLY 8....... Now do you understand!!!!!!your not playing games here.

Your Body is made to live forever. It just depends upon where you want to spend that eternity. The Great Tribulations according to the FLOOD has not happen YET!


Still love you all! So please try not to eat me for breakfast!

Yes, sometimes it appears that I get impatient. I do and for all the right reasons. I see people who will be left behind when the Rapture happens because they think it is a JOKE, have been taught that it is not true and Do not really care about expanding their knowledge to FIND out (Acts 17:11).

Think about the FLOOD people. GOD told the people he was going to destroy the earth and they did not listen. Does that not sound like what we are hearing today. Why then would we think that GOD would be easier on us than on those people back in 4500BC.. COME ON People WAKE UP

 

[samuel23]

Pre-tribbers are the equivalent of liberals in the world, and post-trib folks are the equivalent of conservatives in the world. Like the liberals, the pre-trib people are all passion and talk while attacking the post-trib folks, while the post-trib folks, like the conservatives, just keep pointing out the simple easy to recognize truth. I feel sorrow for the pre-trib folks because they are resisting the Holy Spirit. In their desperation to defend the indefensible they subject themselves to depraved actions, denying the very words of Jesus Christ(Matt 24, Mark 13), wrestling obviously false meanings from scripture(claiming the tribulation is the wrath of God). To Christians who see what they are doing it seems absurd that they could do what they are doing. I see it as a spiritual problem, all pre-trib folks at one time read where Jesus said that He would return in the sky, with angels, and gather the Christians, after the tribulation. When they read that place in scripture, and by an act of their will, chose to reject that truth, they then became under the spirit of deception, so that they actually believe that which has no scripture to back it up. I feel sorry for the die hard pre-trib folks because I do not see them as ever repenting and without repenting they face the judgment of God both in this life and in the judgment to come. Many folks who do not know tend to lean to pre-trib simply because so much of the leadership in the church today are pre-trib. If I was offered anything I wanted in this life, and a hundred years of perfect health to enjoy it, if only I would take the place of a pre-trib teacher at the judgment, I would not even consider it...it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[p_rehbein]

The RAPTURE can be explained in the "twinkling of an eye."

 

[wsblind]

I feel sorry for the die hard pre-trib folks because I do not see them as ever repenting and without repenting they face the judgment of God both in this life and in the judgment to come.

This Kind of garbage gives me even stronger conviction that pretrib is the correct doctrine.

There is no judgement for a believer, only an evaluation of our works at the Bema seat of Christ.

 

[PennEd]

It also seems to be Gods Way to pull people through a seemingly impossible situation, unscathed.

Such as leading Moses and the people through the Red Sea. It looked like Gods Wrath was going to be poured out upon the Israelites, but instead God led them through miraculously and instead poured out His Wrath onto the Egyptian army.

Same with Noah.

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. (Always in that order, never in a different order...lol)


My point in pointing all this out is that the pre-trib rapture theory all hinges on Gods People not being around for His Wrath. But that's not the Way God has Worked in the past. God protects His People but doesn't prevent them from going through some fearful things that sure look like wrath as they are happening.

Ah! But WHO are God's people today? I would submit that they are the gentile Church and Messianic Jews. Enoch WAS NOT Jewish. He was raptured as a non Jew, representing The Church in the Model.

I believe those saved DURING the Great Trib. will be the Jews converted to accept Jesus by the 144,000,who flee to Petra, representing Noah and family in the Model.

 

[popeye]

Pre-tribbers are the equivalent of liberals in the world, and post-trib folks are the equivalent of conservatives in the world. Like the liberals, the pre-trib people are all passion and talk while attacking the post-trib folks, while the post-trib folks, like the conservatives, just keep pointing out the simple easy to recognize truth. I feel sorrow for the pre-trib folks because they are resisting the Holy Spirit. In their desperation to defend the indefensible they subject themselves to depraved actions, denying the very words of Jesus Christ(Matt 24, Mark 13), wrestling obviously false meanings from scripture(claiming the tribulation is the wrath of God). To Christians who see what they are doing it seems absurd that they could do what they are doing. I see it as a spiritual problem, all pre-trib folks at one time read where Jesus said that He would return in the sky, with angels, and gather the Christians, after the tribulation. When they read that place in scripture, and by an act of their will, chose to reject that truth, they then became under the spirit of deception, so that they actually believe that which has no scripture to back it up. I feel sorry for the die hard pre-trib folks because I do not see them as ever repenting and without repenting they face the judgment of God both in this life and in the judgment to come. Many folks who do not know tend to lean to pre-trib simply because so much of the leadership in the church today are pre-trib. If I was offered anything I wanted in this life, and a hundred years of perfect health to enjoy it, if only I would take the place of a pre-trib teacher at the judgment, I would not even consider it...it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

So,basically,you are saying Lot,and the Christ child were out of God's will and not as smart as you since they CHOSE a pretrib deliverance.

 

[popeye]

I answered your question. What do you want from me? I have absolutely no idea what your point is. I already told you, yes, the "dead in Christ" rise first. So what?? Good grief, bro. Make your point. Spit it out! LOL.

Ok,I wasn't sure since you skirted it so many times.

Was it you or someone else that asserted there is no bodily resurrection?

 

[samuel23]

Like I said in my post, I don't see the die hard pre-trib folks repenting because they have read the scriptural truth and rejected it. I point out the false pre-trib rapture for those who still have an open mind. This issue is much more serious then a lot of people think that it is...Jesus said post-trib gathering, so a pre-trib gathering is a contradiction of what Jesus Christ gave us. All the pre-trib talk in the world cannot change the fact that Jesus gave the church a post-trib gathering of the church. It is written in Matt 24 and Mark 13. Those who want to know the truth take heed.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Pop...trying to muddy the water.