The Rapture explained in two minutes

[MattTooFor]

"Causes all the wicked in the world to mourn?" Honestly? The history isn't in on what the wicked did. History is written by the victors

The Bible is "written" by God. Matthew 24:30 -- "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory."

At the time of this ultra-spectacular, ultra-supernatural transporting ("gathering") of the believers...the wicked will mourn.

See also Rev. 6:15-17 -- "Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

BUT the sun moon and stars? As in "blotted out?" Happened.

Really? Link me to some historical information. (Why can't you guys start your own thread, by the way? I'm attempting discussions with PreTribbers in this thread. Oh well.)

 

[MattTooFor]

"Causes all the wicked in the world to mourn?" Honestly? The history isn't in on what the wicked did. History is written by the victors, so they thought it was "triumph!" I would imagine it was quite a bit like Germany in the 1930's and 40's though -- quite a bit of shame on the part of the people for what they saw happening and they kept quite.

Then again, we know the wicked won't all be coming to God, right? (Maybe you don't, because you're stuck on this hobby of yours.)

BUT the sun moon and stars? As in "blotted out?" Happened.

Jerusalem! They utterly and completely destroyed everyone in Jerusalem and as far as humanly possible on the structures. First they blockaded it. No food could get in and no people could get out. And they waited. And waited. The food was eaten. After the food, the rats and roaches were eaten. And then they waited a bit longer and went in to take it down.

A mother was roasting her baby to eat. They killed her and everyone else. They stacked the bodies in the temple's outer courts. Monstrous location, and yet the bodies were stacked four feet high. The gutters in the streets were ankle deep in blood. "Rivers of blood." Then they set them and it on fire. The entire city of Jerusalem was on fire. The smoke rose and blotted out the sun, moon and stars until the smoke abated. Been decades since I read this, so I don't remember how long, but no one saw the sky until there was no more fuel for the fire.

It happened. Past tense. It happened. A shame no one is taught the evilness of Man anymore. Rome tried to wipe out Christians and Jews. Thus another "great disbursement." And since Rome chased down Christians to kill them all for 200ish years, truly a Great Tribulation! Yet this travesty is covered up by lesser travesties like Stalin and Hitler.

At one point in time, they gathered the Christians to take them back to Rome. To light the way of the leader, they impaled them at regular intervals, and lit them on fire as street lamps. They'd grab another one, set him or her on fire and drag the body behind a chariot as a "headlight" for the leader's chariot. And when that body went out, they grabbed the next Christian and do it again from Jerusalem to Rome!

And what was left when they got to Rome was put into the Coliseum as sport. 30 days. (Possibly 60. Like I said it's been a long time since I read this.) 24/7 any Roman could go down to the Coliseum to watch lions eating Christians. The only problem was they had more Christians than lions, and lions don't eat when they're full. So a bunch of Christians were put in at a time, lions would eat a some, and then lie down to rest. The rest of the Christians were stuck there waiting for the lions to get hungry again. Parents comforting their children with full understanding the entire family would, eventually, be eaten by the lions. Some were stuck waiting for up to two weeks.

100,000 Christians per day for 30 days! And then they went on to try and wipe out the rest. Can you really think of anything that would be greater than that Great Tribulation?

Why did Jesus, and then John, warn the people? Because God didn't want people to lose heart when they were facing this. THEY were facing this. Why tell what someone thousands of years late MIGHT face when it was already happening by the time John got his vision? It DID happen in their lifetime. It did happen. It continued to happen for 200 years!

What? You might get someone laughing at you for being a Christian? Sure beats being lit on fire, speared and then burned in the temple, hung on a cross, beheaded, and all the other disgusting ways the Romans really did kill Christians. If you think the left scoffing at Christians is tough, then you simply don't know what tough is! And, judging by how much time you pour into this hobby of yours (because again, it really has nothing to do with God, it has to do with your comfort), you really don't have any idea how tough it can get.

You didn't answer my question about this rapture/"gathering" event. (?)

 

[MattTooFor]

From heaven.

Not earth.

You left that part out.

It clearly states the angels gather the believers "from the four winds"...a clear reference to earth. But yes, the angels ALSO gather believers from all across God's kingdom..."from one end of the heavens to the other". Wherever any of the saints who have gone on before us are residing...they will at that time be gathered together with all other believers.

 

[MattTooFor]

Lets try one more time.

Do the dead in Christ per 1 thes 4 rise and meet Jesus in the air immediately before the believers rise as in rapture?

Do the dead resurrect before the living are gathered?

Why is that a problem for you?? I'm pretty sure this is one of the very few areas of agreement between PreTribbers and PreWrathers...which is that the "dead in Christ" rise first...then we who are alive and remain, meet the Lord in the air. I don't get what point you're trying to make. Sorry, man.

Anyway...what about my question? I started this thread with a specific question in mind. Not a single PreTribber has dared come within a country mile of my simple question. Oh well.

 

[MattTooFor]

DC please answer a Question for me....Is the PostTrib Rapture Imminent.

No, it's not "imminent". Jesus told Peter, James and John that there would first be the Abomination of Desolation, followed by the Great Tribulation which has an unknown length. Could be 2 years or so...3 years or so..."no one knows" the length of the Great Trib.

But when you have this monumental Abomination event and this massive Great Tribulation phase...and ALL of this happening before the "gathering"...that would make this "gathering" the furthest thing from "imminent"...to answer your question.

PreTrib has no such thing as "imminency" either. For one thing, Jesus told Peter he would live to old age, at which time he would be martyred. That means the ENTIRE first generation of the Christian era had no "imminency". Thus, the Doctrine of Imminency is null and void.

 

[buddyt]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorantbrethren concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not even asothers which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died androse again even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring withhim.
The subject here in verse 13 refers towhere the dead are. Verse 14 clearly tells us where they are. Theyare with the Father. Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the wordof the Lord that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of theLord shall not prevent them which are asleep. What we are being toldhere is that at the Lords return he will bring those that have diedin him with him. Simple to understand. Verse 16 doesn't readcorrectly it should read : For the Lord himself shall descend fromHeaven with a shout with the voice of the Arch-Angel and with theTrump of God and the dead in Christ shall RETURN with him. We alreadyknow where the dead are so no need to say shall rise first. Thiswritten the way it is leads people to believe they'll be popping outof holes in the ground. The Trump of God refers to the last Trump youfind in the book of Revelation. I have read here on this Forum thatthere are other Trumps other than those spoke of in Revelation. Iasked for someone to tell me where but as expected I've never beengiven an answer. If you know please tell me. Verse 17 tells us whathappens at Christ's return. 1 Cor.15:52-53 Verse 18 is just simplytelling us to not worry about where the Dead are as the subjectstarts out in Verse 13.
Nowhere in Gods word does it say Christwill return twice. If you are one of those who believe this yoursetting yourself up to be in Satan's wagon when he tells you hes hereto rapture you away.
2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Thessalonians 2:1-5 Paulwrote a second letter to explain himself and exactly what he meantin the first. Verse 1 Now we beseech you brethren by the coming ofour Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together with him. Paul istelling us here to listen very closely pay attention to this. Verse 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled neither by spiritnor by word NOR BY LETTER FROM US as that the day of Christ is athand. This verse is telling you don't be worried or confused don'tmisunderstand even the first letter written to you as to when Christwill return. Verse 3-5 Let no man deceive you by any means for THATDAY SHALL NOT COME except there come a falling away first and the manof sin be revealed the son of perdition. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped so that heas God sitteth in the temple of God shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not that when I was yet with you I told you these things.These verses are simply telling us we are not going to see Jesusagain until Satan comes claiming to be Jesus.
Finally Ezekiel 13:20 tells us what Godsays about all this. It reads: Wherefore thus saith the Lord God Behold I am against your pillows wherewith ye there hunt the thesouls to make them FLY and I will tear them from your arms and willlet the souls go even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly. Howcan any man not understand what is being said here. The Rapturetheory is a very DANGEROUS false teaching my friend. If you are onewho has been thought this do some in-depth study on the subject onyour own don't believe this Man or any other Man. Bless you andplease study this its very important.

 

[Johnny_B]

BUT the sun moon and stars? As in "blotted out?" Happened.

You believe that these things have already happened?

6:12-17 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Luke 21:25-28 And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

 

[MattTooFor]

Matt, let me ask a few things, because I was a dogmatic pre-trib dispensationalist at the beginning of my walk with the Lord. I thought I knew it all, but it was reading Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 17 & 21 that caused my view to change. I used to go to Calvary Chapel if you know who they. They are total dispensationalist, one day one of the brothers ask me about Matthew 24. I began to explain it to him as I understood it at the time and the first thing out of his mouth was, so you don't believe like Calvary Chapel or what Chuck Smith does. He didn't ask me to explain how I came to that interpretation or how that lined up with the rest of Scripture on the end times.

Unfortunately, that's the way it is so many times: You're expected to get in line...or else you are no longer welcome. I am very familiar with CC and Chuck Smith. I have even written up an article on Smith and Calvary Chapel on one of my blogs. I invite any and all discussion about the man and his church (maybe on another thread).

Do think the Abomination has already happened in 70 A.D., it's gong to happen and do you see a difference between the sign of His coming and His second coming?

No. Personally, I do not believe the Abomination of Desolation has already happened. I believe this is how the Antichrist is going to introduce himself to the world with astonishing ferocity and (as the Bible says) with accompanying "signs and wonders". It will be "shock and awe". Revelation says "the whole world immediately follows" the Antichrist.

I see a continuity in those three things -- the Abomination followed by the Great Tribulation followed by the great Gathering of the believers.

I know Chuck Smith and Walter Martin, would go round and round about the rapture.

I strongly believe in the 'ultra-simplicity' of Bible prophecy. Go back to my previous post and think over the question that is raised: If PreTrib were actually true...then Peter, James and John upheld false doctrines.

But that isn't possible.

The simple message which Jesus gave to those men...of an Abomination event,. followed by the Great Trib, followed by the "gathering"...is the message they believed...and a message WE therefore should believe.

It's that simple...in my view.

 

[Johnny_B]

Matt some times the simple things are not so simple. What do you think the destruction of the Temple by Titus was? Because it was one of the question that the disciples posed to Jesus and the only place He seems to answer it is in 24:15-28. I really wonder if this doesn't have a double fulfillment, like the one about the Jews being taken to nations then they return. What happened with the Assyrian, Babylonian and the 70 A.D. with 1948 being the fulfillment of that. The 10 tribes ended up with the two tribes because Babylon defeated the Assyrians, those the 10 tribe in Babylon.

Any way what do you think, because it really does seem like Jesus was using the Abomination of Desolation to describe the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

 

[PennEd]

I lean pre-trib but aren't bothered if that's wrong. It's a bridge waaaay too far for me to get to believe that the Rev. and vast multitude of O.T. prophecies of God's wrath have been fulfilled. You have to allegorize huge chunks of Scripture,

My Pre-trib tidbit of the day.

God uses models or similitudes all through Scripture. The classic example is God modeling His Son being sacrificed using Abraham and Issac. But there are untold similitudes in the Bible. Here's a possible Pre-trib one.

Enoch was Pre-tribbed raptured before Judgement. Noah and his family were those protected THROUGH the judgement. In BOTH cases, the Flood, and wrath poured out in the Great Tribulation, God's judgement on unrepentant sinners who scorned His SOLE Way of Salvation, are destroyed.



Still love you all! So please try not to eat me for breakfast!

 

[Grandpa]

I lean pre-trib but aren't bothered if that's wrong. It's a bridge waaaay too far for me to get to believe that the Rev. and vast multitude of O.T. prophecies of God's wrath have been fulfilled. You have to allegorize huge chunks of Scripture,

My Pre-trib tidbit of the day.

God uses models or similitudes all through Scripture. The classic example is God modeling His Son being sacrificed using Abraham and Issac. But there are untold similitudes in the Bible. Here's a possible Pre-trib one.

Enoch was Pre-tribbed raptured before Judgement. Noah and his family were those protected THROUGH the judgement. In BOTH cases, the Flood, and wrath poured out in the Great Tribulation, God's judgement on unrepentant sinners who scorned His SOLE Way of Salvation, are destroyed.



Still love you all! So please try not to eat me for breakfast!

It also seems to be Gods Way to pull people through a seemingly impossible situation, unscathed.

Such as leading Moses and the people through the Red Sea. It looked like Gods Wrath was going to be poured out upon the Israelites, but instead God led them through miraculously and instead poured out His Wrath onto the Egyptian army.

Same with Noah.

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. (Always in that order, never in a different order...lol)


My point in pointing all this out is that the pre-trib rapture theory all hinges on Gods People not being around for His Wrath. But that's not the Way God has Worked in the past. God protects His People but doesn't prevent them from going through some fearful things that sure look like wrath as they are happening.

 

[Ahwatukee]

It also seems to be Gods Way to pull people through a seemingly impossible situation, unscathed.

Such as leading Moses and the people through the Red Sea. It looked like Gods Wrath was going to be poured out upon the Israelites, but instead God led them through miraculously and instead poured out His Wrath onto the Egyptian army.

Same with Noah.

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. (Always in that order, never in a different order...lol)


My point in pointing all this out is that the pre-trib rapture theory all hinges on Gods People not being around for His Wrath. But that's not the Way God has Worked in the past. God protects His People but doesn't prevent them from going through some fearful things that sure look like wrath as they are happening.

Hello Grandpa,

The key to this, is understanding God's coming, unprecedented wrath. One of the major problems today is that people do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. It will be like nothing the world has ever experienced, with the majority of the population being decimated, which is supported by Jesus when he said that if those days were allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive. Some attempt to cite the trials and tribulations that the apostles and first century church, as well as those who are suffering now, stating that "why should the church escape if those people didn't?" The answer is that none of those people suffered the wrath of God, but suffered and are suffering the common trials and tribulations the Jesus said we would have as a result of our faith in him.

What is coming is specifically God's wrath and that upon a Christ rejecting world. As the information contained in seals, trumpets and bowl judgments makes very clear, there will be no where to hide on this planet during the time of God's wrath.

A believer has already received Christ and has repented, has been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. There is therefore no reason for the church to be here on earth during the time of God's wrath. Not to mention that the church is not mentioned even one time after the end of chapter 3. And also not to mention the fact that scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and that because Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10) There is nothing honorable about a believer in Christ going through the time of his wrath. For those who do, it will mean that they were not watching or ready when the Lord came to gather his church.

I'll give you some examples: At the blowing of the 5th trumpet, an angel opens the Abyss releasing those demonic beings who's sole purpose is to torment the inhabitants of the earth with stings like that of scorpions for five months. The only group that is mentioned as being excluded from that plague are those who will have been sealed with the seal of God on their foreheads, which will be those 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. That means that if the church were here, they would not be excluded from this.

When the 1st trumpet sounds, a third of the earth and trees are burned up. What is not stated in scripture, is how many fatalities will result from this. For if you have a third of the earth and trees being burned up, then there will be many fatalities.

At the pouring out of the 4th bowl, the sun scorches the inhabitants with intense heat, searing them. There is no meniton of anyone being exempt from that plague of wrath.

These are just a few of the plagues of wrath. Do you actually believe that the Lord would build his church and then send them through his wrath with the unrighteous? Those who do, are not trusting in the fact that the Lord took upon himself the wrath that we deserve, satisfying God's wrath.

People don't understand the severity of what God's wrath entails.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Johnnyb, It is very frustrating for some who have chosen to actually believe the biblical account of Christ return, to watch other professing Christians act as if they cannot see it. I have said the same thing myself many times, your average 12 year old can easily understand by simply reading Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, along with 2Thess 2 that the gathering of the church will happen after the tribulation. The literal NT teaches very clearly a post-tribulation gathering of the church, this was believed for hundreds of years until around 1830 a man named John Darby listened to Satan and created a pre-trib gathering, one where we all get a free pass. He went around the country preaching it and the rest is history. Pre-trib is an end time deception, a doctrine of demons, the fable that Paul warned us that many would turn from the truth and accept. The danger in it is the great disappointment when Christ does not appear and that will cause a great falling away from the faith. It is like this, Satan came to Jesus and offered Him the crown without the cross, Jesus refused the offer of Satan. Satan has came to the modern church and offered them the gathering without the tribulation, the modern church has accepted the offer of Satan.

 

[popeye]

Why is that a problem for you?? I'm pretty sure this is one of the very few areas of agreement between PreTribbers and PreWrathers...which is that the "dead in Christ" rise first...then we who are alive and remain, meet the Lord in the air. I don't get what point you're trying to make. Sorry, man.

Anyway...what about my question? I started this thread with a specific question in mind. Not a single PreTribber has dared come within a country mile of my simple question. Oh well.

When you skirt such a simple question,I interpret that as "hiding"

Something about that simple concept really gets to you doesn't it?

Lets try it again.

Do the dead rise first as i 1 thes 4. (that would mean,simply,they precede the living in the rapture event)

 

[popeye]

Hi Johnnyb, It is very frustrating for some who have chosen to actually believe the biblical account of Christ return, to watch other professing Christians act as if they cannot see it. I have said the same thing myself many times, your average 12 year old can easily understand by simply reading Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, along with 2Thess 2 that the gathering of the church will happen after the tribulation. The literal NT teaches very clearly a post-tribulation gathering of the church, this was believed for hundreds of years until around 1830 a man named John Darby listened to Satan and created a pre-trib gathering, one where we all get a free pass. He went around the country preaching it and the rest is history. Pre-trib is an end time deception, a doctrine of demons, the fable that Paul warned us that many would turn from the truth and accept. The danger in it is the great disappointment when Christ does not appear and that will cause a great falling away from the faith. It is like this, Satan came to Jesus and offered Him the crown without the cross, Jesus refused the offer of Satan. Satan has came to the modern church and offered them the gathering without the tribulation, the modern church has accepted the offer of Satan.

Theresurrection.
In 1 thes 4
The dead precede the living in the gathering of ch 4?

Did Jesus body come to life at his resurrection?
Those that raised with Jesus,the patriarchs,did they come to life bodily?Were they seen by the residents of Jerusalem ,walking around?

 

[popeye]

Why is that a problem for you?? I'm pretty sure this is one of the very few areas of agreement between PreTribbers and PreWrathers...which is that the "dead in Christ" rise first...then we who are alive and remain, meet the Lord in the air. I don't get what point you're trying to make. Sorry, man.

Anyway...what about my question? I started this thread with a specific question in mind. Not a single PreTribber has dared come within a country mile of my simple question. Oh well.

Did Jesus body come to life at his resurrection?
Those that raised with Jesus,the patriarchs,did they come to life bodily?Were they seen by the residents of Jerusalem ,walking around?

 

[popeye]

Hi Johnnyb, It is very frustrating for some who have chosen to actually believe the biblical account of Christ return, to watch other professing Christians act as if they cannot see it. I have said the same thing myself many times, your average 12 year old can easily understand by simply reading Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, along with 2Thess 2 that the gathering of the church will happen after the tribulation. The literal NT teaches very clearly a post-tribulation gathering of the church, this was believed for hundreds of years until around 1830 a man named John Darby listened to Satan and created a pre-trib gathering, one where we all get a free pass. He went around the country preaching it and the rest is history. Pre-trib is an end time deception, a doctrine of demons, the fable that Paul warned us that many would turn from the truth and accept. The danger in it is the great disappointment when Christ does not appear and that will cause a great falling away from the faith. It is like this, Satan came to Jesus and offered Him the crown without the cross, Jesus refused the offer of Satan. Satan has came to the modern church and offered them the gathering without the tribulation, the modern church has accepted the offer of Satan.

You do not have a single postrib verse. You REPEATEDLY pull that weak,weak twist out of mat 24,that you PERSONALLY reconfigure to hold up as YOUR SINGLE BANNER,against a barrage of verses that make your deal impossible.

Your repeated calling us satan,is the final indicator you are batting the air.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Pop: You want verses...Immediately AFTER the TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS...shall appear the sign of the Son of Man(Jesus) in heaven..and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven and He shall send His angels with the sound of a trumpet and they shall gather His chosen(Christians) Matt 24:29-31 read it and weep.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Pop, I did not call anyone Satan(why do you make these things up), I said that the false pre-trib rapture TEACHING is a demonic teaching and a fable and an endtime deception. Why would I call YOU Satan, you did not come up with the idea of pre-trib.

 

[popeye]

It also seems to be Gods Way to pull people through a seemingly impossible situation, unscathed.

Such as leading Moses and the people through the Red Sea. It looked like Gods Wrath was going to be poured out upon the Israelites, but instead God led them through miraculously and instead poured out His Wrath onto the Egyptian army.

Same with Noah.

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. (Always in that order, never in a different order...lol)


My point in pointing all this out is that the pre-trib rapture theory all hinges on Gods People not being around for His Wrath. But that's not the Way God has Worked in the past. God protects His People but doesn't prevent them from going through some fearful things that sure look like wrath as they are happening.

The Christ child was removed,escaped wrath,as did lot,and Noah.

You need an example of a REMOVAL/RESCUE ....AFTER judgement.

You guys just plain have nothing. Nada.