The Rapture explained in two minutes

MattTooFor · Apr 4, 2017

Matthew 24 (excerpts) --

"As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

...they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...

... then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.

But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.

And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

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Obviously, Peter, James and John believed what Jesus told them. When they asked what would happen in the end times, Jesus told them they would encounter the Abomination of Desolation (an event which happens in the exact middle of the "70th Week" seven year period.

But according to the PreTrib viewpoint...THAT is a false doctrine. It claims believers can NOT expect to encounter the Abomination and the subsequent "great tribulation". It asserts there is this mythical pre-70th Week "rapture" event".

PreTrib therefore must concede the most utterly absurd concession...which is that Jesus taught false doctrine to Peter, James and John. He taught them to live with an expectation of encountering the Abomination, the Great Tribulation, followed by the glorious "Gathering".

Peter, James and John believed Jesus. Therefore, according to PreTrib, these disciples believed false doctrine. And Jesus taught false doctrine.

PreTrib is a horrifically tragic and utterly invalidated doctrine...and which has caused millions to snooze and nap and snore, five minutes (give or take) before the darkness of the Great Tribulation commences and we head for the end of the world and the return of the King.

In that regard, Jesus predicts elsewhere in Matthew 24 (the Olivet Discourse is also found in Mark 13 and Luke 21) that "at that time many will fall from the faith" and will turn out NOT to have been genuine believers.

Jesus also advises that He does NOT know the timing of these events ("no one knows the day or the hour, but only the Father in heaven"). In other words, He did not know if Peter, James, John or the rest of the first generation of the Christian era would themselves survive to see these events...or whether these events might happen 2000 years into the future.

I could guess which verses you're referring to but...give me a specific passage. Long story short -- NO, there is no passage in the Bible which teaches a PreTrib rapture.

MattTooFor · Apr 4, 2017

Bladerunner said:

Where do you come up with some of these cockamamie perceptions about me?? I absolutely love, love, love the Book of Revelation. I just haven't gotten there yet. I've been discussing the Olivet Discourse.

The Olivet Discourse is virtually the "Rosetta Stone" for the Book of Revelation.

Once you accept the Olivet Discourse at simple face value...and accept the simple fact that Jesus taught His followers (believers) to expect to encounter the Abomination, followed by the Great Tribulation and only THEN would there be this great Gathering (i.e. a "rapture)...it opens up the Book of Revelation like a can of peaches!

What kind of crazy conspiracy theory about me have you come up with?? Holy Mackerel! I don't accept God's Word as God's Word? Whatever floats your boat, brother.

The scriptures you are citing in no way shape of form indicate a PreTrib rapture. My goodness.

And in any case, the MOST you can hope for is to create a gigantic train-wreck contradiction in the Bible...with the Olivet Discourse proposing a post-"Great Tribulation" rapture and the Book of Revelation supposedly indicating a PreTrib rapture.

For you to argue that the passing reference to "seven lamps" means there is a PreTrib rapture...it's pure fantasy. Pure fabrication. What you need (and don't have) is a simple, plain, straightforward statement found somewhere in the Bible which says: "And the Lord raptured all the believers before the beginning of the 2520 days of the 70th Week of Daniel".

But you don't have that. PreTrib does not exist in the Bible. There is no passage in the Bible you can turn to and teach a PreTrib rapture. Such a passage does not exist. What your left with is...a fantastic distorting, twisting and conjuring...with your claims about a reference to seven lamps as an example.

Johnny_B · Apr 4, 2017

MattTooFor said:

I don't care what pre-trib says I want to know what it is that you believe because to me it sounds like you believe that the disciples would see His coming and that can't be. Luke 17:22-24 "Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it. 23 People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. 24 For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other."

Please quit saying what pre-cribbers believe and how you think it's false doctrine, why can't you just explain what you believe with Scripture of course in context, not isolated. This wold really help understand what you believe.

What does this mean? "For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

dcontroversal · Apr 4, 2017

GaryA said:

The idea of "taking the red pill" means you want to know the truth "at all costs" ( and, you are not satisfied with "anything less" ); whereas, "taking the blue pill" means you would rather not face it, deal with it, etc. ( and, you are completely satisfied with that decision )

'red pill people' want to know the truth

'blue pill people' would rather be 'comfortable' than 'knowledgeable'

Amen to that and I agree.....

Dan_473 · Apr 4, 2017

Johnny_B said:

yes, an interesting phrase, "delivers us from the wrath to come."

which 'wrath'? I would assume all kinds of God's wrath.

yes, God will discipline us, that's a good thing.

HEBREWS 12:11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

imo, God's wrath is directed towards non-Christians

ROMANS 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.

Johnny_B · Apr 4, 2017

Dan_473 said:

I agree, Ephesians 2:3 "among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

We no longer are children of wrath by His grace. It's been so long since I've studied the rapture that I forgot what I believe, because I've been studying about God's nature and His love for us, while growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. It's been about thirty years since I studied end time prophecies. Jesus does say that as it was in the days of Noah, but in Luke 17 He adds Lot to the same story, it's not part of the Olivet Discourse, but it is about the nature of His coming.

Luke 17:28-32 "Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. 32 Remember Lot's wife."

This always has made me think "remember Lot's wife", here's the context of both stories people are living life as though everything is normal, that God's judgement is a far off thing. Also wrapped up in those stories is God rescuing His people from His judgement on the wicked world, does this represent the rapture? If it does then Matthew 24 does talk about the rapture because, He mentions Noah in that chapter. Which would make it before the great tribulation, since it's God's wrath on the world. At the moment I can't remember what Scriptures that seem to lead to the idea of a post GT rapture, that's why I can't be dogmatic on either one, I've also seen Scripture that seems to say there's going to be a mid-trib. But, at that time I was not familiar with reading verses in context. I had a KJV which separates all verses from each other, so it made me think that they all stood alone, they don't.

I need to go over those Scriptures again since I've come to view the Olivet Discourse from the one I was taught, which was dispensational which I don't hold anymore after that study of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and 17. Luke adds lots of clarification to Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Bladerunner · Apr 4, 2017

MattTooFor said:

In reference to the sentence above, it seems you have disregarded what John tells us in Revelation 4:4..."And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

Above the 24 elders represent the Church(es). NOTICE:::they are sitting on thrones around/before GOD's THRONE

In Revelation 4:5...." And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. (here the 7 spirits represent Completeness)

The above is a representation of the seven lamps and the 24 elders or the CHURCH(es) Rem,,,there are SEVEN OF THEM

The Churches:
In Rev 1:4....John tells us " John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

***in Rev 1:20 (KJV).." The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

***in Rev 1:20 (NASB).."As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

I give you two different versions of the same scripture, just in case you balked on the seven Candlesticks.

*************
Do the Lampstands (candlesticks) represent the CHurches. Below is a verse where Jesus threatens to remove their lampstand if they do not repent. WHere is he going to remove it......In HEAVEN??????????????

Rev 2:5..KJV..."Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

*************

Overall, what John is telling us here in Rev 4...The Churches (all seven of them are represented), the seven lampstands, the seven candlesticks or the 24 elders are present in HEAVEN. The Tribulations are not yet started and will not be until Rev 6:12 where the 6th SEAL is open and all hell breaks loose.

Now HOW did the Church(es) get to Heaven before the 2nd coming. Rev 20

Does one think that the WORD of GOD in 1 Cor 15:50-54, 1 Thess 4:13-18, etc maybe mean something beside a pretty figurative picture or something.

Matt.....If you and others cannot see the above, then there is no hope.,,,I do wish you all the Luck in the world after the Rapture but "LUCK" is one word I am afraid the Good Lord failed to put in the Bible.

OH, before you go, in Matthew 24:22 KJV ....Jesus tells us just how bad the days after the Rapture will be.

"And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened."

Yes, Matthew 24:22 is part of the Olivet Discourse,,,,but you already knew that ---NO?

Johnny_B · Apr 4, 2017

Here's who the 24 elders are Revelation 21:12-14 "It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The lamp stand represents the Church or seven Churches

MattTooFor · Apr 5, 2017

Johnny_B said:

You're not even close. Apparently you didn't even read my long and carefully-composed post to you into which I put considerable effort. Oh well. Here again is what I said on the subject of whether or not Peter, James and John would live to see these events which Jesus described to them:

MattTooFor said:

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Johnny_B said:

Well, if you can quit "yelling" at me long enough to settle down, you will notice that ONCE AGAIN, I had already described my beliefs in careful detail...not only in the post I had directed to you...but numerous times throughout this thread...although, perhaps you should be forgiven for not reading through 12 pages of a thread.

Here again, are my beliefs on the subject:

MattTooFor said:

There it is. That is EXACTLY what I believe. I believe EXACTLY what Jesus said to Peter,James and John in answer to their questions about the end times: That there would be [1] the Abomination, followed by [2] the Great Tribulation, followed by [3] the Gathering.

OK. So? What are you saying? That Jesus contradicts Himself? - First telling the disciples to look for the end of the age...then (according to your erroneous interpretation) that they won't see the end of the age?

First of all, Jesus did not know either way. He clarifies that with His comment "no one knows the day or hour". When He makes the statement about "longing"...He isn't contradicting Himself. He is saying (if you look at the context and compare with the 2 other versions of the Olivet Discourse) that people will be so desirous to see the Lord's return, it will lead to them being seduced into deception - "do not go running after them".

I have no real idea what you're talking about. I have been explaining myself blue for thirteen pages of this thread. You're just jumping in here. And telling me to quit discussing my chosen topic for a thread I started?? Why? Why would I do that? It's a subject that is of interest to me. (??)

Well, again...you're just now jumping in here but...OK, let me re-state:

Peter, James and John are told by Jesus that the believers will be "gathered"/raptured just moments after the appearance of great cosmic signs.

By the same token, the Scriptures elsewhere clarify that the time of God's wrath does not begin until the appearance of these cosmic signs.

If you look carefully at the Olivet Discourse, the "gathering" occurs just moments after these cataclysmic "cosmic signs" make their appearance:

Matthew 24:29-31 -- "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.

THEN notice Joel 2:31 -- "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

You see that?

The great cosmic signs explode across the planet...the believers are "immediately" gathered...and ONLY THEN does God's wrath commence.

This is further confirmed in Rev 6: 12,13,16,17 -- "

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth...and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come...".
-----

First there is the Abomination, followed by the Great Tribulation, followed by the Gathering (rapture)...followed by the day of the Lord...the wrath of God. Believers are not subjected to the Day of the Lord.

GaryA · Apr 5, 2017

Bladerunner said:

I believe that what you see in "the above" is in error...

First:

It is reasonable to say that the candlesticks represent the 7 churches specified in Revelation; it is not reasonable to say that they are the churches specified in Revelation. A candlestick in heaven - in a vision - representing a church - does not necessitate in any way that the represented church is / was /ever-will-be in heaven.

Also - if you are going to be that specific - then, you should recognize that those seven candlesticks represented those seven churches -- and, not any other churches ever in existence other than those specified churches.

Second:

Everything concerning the churches in Revelation is / was in very specific regard to the particular churches specified - in existence at the time John wrote Revelation - and only those churches. It is a fantastic "leap" in-of-itself to assume that those churches represented in Revelation somehow directly "extrapolate" into "The Church" or all local churches that ever came into existence after that.

If you think about what Jesus is saying --- what the candlestick represents about [ the church it represents ] - is expressly existent at the time that Revelation was written - and is expressly about the church that was existent at the time that Revelation was written.

At best, each of the churches represents a prophetic shadow of different "phases" that "The Church" would go through during the rest of human history - up until the time of the Second Coming of Christ.

However, it is erroneous to "automatically extrapolate" out of Revelation anything placing [ actual ] churches in heaven at any given point in time. That is not what is revealed in Revelation. It is simply not there...

The fact that - in the same 'letter' - John writes to some currently-presently-existent-churches - followed by some prophetic stuff ----- it takes some pretty "out there" fantasy to come up with the idea that this somehow translates into "rapture of the church before any of [ the prophetic stuff ] takes place...

It is pure fantasy.

And, 'pre-trib' is "chock-full" of this kind of fantasy.

With God's help - you can train yourself to not be "taken away" by this fantasy - away from what the Bible actually says...

It is this same kind of fantasy that keeps you from understanding what Daniel 9:24-27 is actually saying.

If I explain it to you --- will you understand it? Probably not...

Not until you are ready to give up the fairy-tale.

It is not your fault that you were taught to believe in the fairy-tale. But, you are going to have to ask God to help you escape it...

I am not trying to insult you; I am trying to "wake you up" --- you are "caught in the 'pre-trib' matrix", and you need to get out of it...

GaryA · Apr 5, 2017

MattTooFor said:

When Jesus makes a / the statement regarding no one knowing the day or hour, He is referring specifically to His Second Coming.

GaryA · Apr 5, 2017

The 'OOPS!' was an OOPS!

Somehow, "OOPS!" got into the post #212 Title...???

"It's no tellin'..."

( It was not intended, for what it is worth... )

MattTooFor · Apr 5, 2017

Bladerunner said:

Blade, this thread is about a question I have asked in the OP. You guys are dodging, dodging, dodging. It's hilarious at this point. You discuss my question...in this, my thread...in which I would be interested in my chosen topic...and maybe if you do that, I will get out my Bible machete and hack my way through your artificial PreTrib jungle. Just maybe.

It's amazing -- you guys won't touch the central question with so much as a hundred foot pole. And I don't blame you. There is absolutely zero rebuttal to the Olivet Discourse scenario.

And you know...I looked through this brief Rev. 4 chapter, just to see if there is anything that a PreTribber might try to take and by twisting, wrenching and conjuring, be able to torture the passage into some sort of PreTrib interpretation.

But there is absolutely nothing. Wow - not a whisper of a prayer...even if you were to mangle the passage to death. Blade, Blade, Blade. Come on, bro.

I already told you that the absolute BEST you could hope for is to create a gigantic, train-wreck of a contradiction in the Bible....with the Lord teaching a post-"Great Tribulation" rapture in the Olivet Discourse...and then supposedly this mythical "PreTrib" rapture being indicated in the Book of Revelation.

But it ain't happenin'. Not...even...close.

Against my better judgment, I will say this much: The believers who attended those seven churches thousands of years ago...all DIED thousands of years ago and yes, they are indeed all in heaven at the present time. And they all arrived long before any rapture has taken place. So I guess now you are resorting to some sort of weird preterist-style non-literal make-it-up-as-you-go-along interpretation method...to try to argue these seven churches indicate a PreTrib rapture?

Yes, there are 24 elders. But it doesn't say they represent "the Church(es)". You made that up. And the passage certainly doesn't say there was a rapture - LOL. If these "elders" do represent believers, that's fine. Why would that mean a "rapture" had to have happened?? You've made that up. It's not in your text.

God can't scrounge up 24 elders out of all the hundreds of millions and billions of believers who have been collected up into heaven over the last 6000 years...and previous to any rapture? Why not? You mean to say...God will have no representative leadership among the believers for these past 6000 years? In any case, where is there a scripture which states a "PreTrib" rapture? It doesn't exist.

My man, you don't get to say "Oh, there are 24 elders seen in heaven. That means there is a PreTrib rapture!" Good grief.

As I said before...what you need is a verse which says "and Jesus raptured all the believers to heaven before the 70th Week of Daniel".

No such Bible verse exists. There is no passage in all the Bible which teaches a PreTrib rapture.

MattTooFor · Apr 5, 2017

GaryA said:

Makes no sense, Gary. Anyone who experiences the Abomination of Desolation will know there is exactly 1260 days until the end of the 2nd half of the 70th Week. Unless...I'm not getting your meaning.

GaryA · Apr 5, 2017

Here are some [ somewhat 'random' ] "noteworthy" past posts related to the current "conversation"...:

GaryA said:

In the following post, the word this is referring to "[ from now ]" in the above post.

GaryA said:

GRA said:

GaryA · Apr 5, 2017

MattTooFor said:

What you are stating here - and, are suggesting - and, the timing of it -- is not Biblical.

There is no "7-year tribulation" in the Bible.

( Which is beside-the-point; the context and 'grammar of the language' show us the meaning of His day-and-hour phrase... )

MattTooFor · Apr 5, 2017

Let me put this another way:

What should Christians believe about the end times?

Well...as for myself, I want to make certain that I am believing EXACTLY the same beliefs as Peter, James, and John, after they went out from hearing the Olivet Discourse.

What did Peter, James and John believe? They believed what Jesus told them.

What did Jesus tell them? Well...in answer to their questions about what would happen in the last days, Jesus said the first thing they should look for is...the Abomination of Desolation, followed by the Great Tribulation, followed by the great Gathering of the believers.

Obviously therefore, that is what Peter, James and John believed.

They went out from this Olivet Discourse (Jesus went to the cross two days later) and on to their earthly ministries, HEEDING Jesus' words. I mean...what ELSE were they going to do -- NOT heed His words??

Therefore, I want to have EXACTLY the same beliefs as Peter, James and John.

Whatever beliefs Peter, James and John held to regarding the Olivet Discourse...how is it even remotely conceivable that any other believer would have views and beliefs which are at odds with the beliefs of the founding and originals leaders of the Christian movement??

That would be absurd and dangerous in the extreme.

If you have views on this subject other than the views held by Peter, James and John which they received from the Olivet Discourse...you ought to consider yourself in grave spiritual danger.

GaryA · Apr 5, 2017

popeye said:

Yes - I might have been eating at the time...

popeye said:

Of course not. This isn't Skype, ya know...

popeye said:

The light I was eating under... While I was eating...

MattTooFor · Apr 5, 2017

GaryA said:

Oh boy. This is too much for this one thread. Gary, I can't keep up with all your strange stuff AND the PreTribbers' strange stuff AND the Preterists' strange stuff. Ya'll need your own threads! Come on now.

Please, please, please...don't even try to explain to me why you don't believe in the 70th Week of Daniel. I'm still trying to figure out how you think you dodged the whole "moon upside down in Perth and right side up in Seattle" death blow. Sigh. I think I'm not long for this wacky, crazy CC world. Other fish to fry and irons in the fire.

GaryA · Apr 5, 2017

MattTooFor said:

Yes -- when studying prophecy, it is vitally important to first establish an Order of Events -- based on what scripture actually says...

I agree.

( Of course, Jesus actually told them more than what they asked for -- but, that is another issue...

)

The Rapture explained in two minutes

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