DANGER OF A FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE

[joaniemarie]

Hi Billy: You obviously did not read my post, it is very dangerous to believe in a false pre-trib rapture. You will be judged by God for rejecting the truth and accepting a lie, and for the souls of people who fell away because of your teaching.

The reason I believe Jesus is coming for His bride the church is because He has taken all judgment upon Himself for us on the cross. There is no wrath to come for the believer. There is no fear of judgment for the believer so there is a proper interpretation about 1 Thess.4 We have to see all Scripture in light of the cross.

When a Christian doesn't know this major important truth about their relationship with God., he will mistakenly be looking for judgment instead grace. Grace has been poured out on us and it's for us to learn about what that means. We do not deserve His grace but we have it.

When a believer tries to earn grace, he makes it not grace. He falls from grace and ends up living a life on earth of working to earn God's love. That is something we can never do because our life here will be one of doubt and a fearful expectation of judgment.

We have been given such great and precious promises in Christ. We have Jesus righteousness and He took our sin. Jesus died on the cross for us and we take His righteousness as a gift because we can't have it any other way. There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1

 

[samuel23]

Hi Joan: Paul said that Israel is a tree and that the church was branches IN THAT TREE. Paul did not make the distinction that you seem to be making. The church is made up of the chosen of Israel and the chosen of the gentiles. So the bible never separates Israel from the church as some have tried to do. The church contained the chosen of Israel, the saved of Israel, with the saved of the gentiles. There is a prophecy that in the last days what is left of the nation of Israel will turn to Jesus Christ, however right now the church are the branches of the tree of Israel with the gentiles grafted in.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Joan, Everything you said in your post is true, however the pre-trib rapture is still false because Jesus taught a post-trib rapture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ok popey, I think it's time for bluto too school you on a couple of things. I know you pretribulation/rapture believers like you and ahwatukee love to quote 1 Thessalonians 5:9,10 where you just quoted vs9 above. My question is did you guys really look at the context starting at 1 Thessalonians 5:1-10 because the topic has to do with salvation proper, and not salvation/deliverance by the rapture.

Hello Bluto,

First of all you are incorrect on two counts. Let's look at the scriptures in question:

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

In the scripture above, Paul is revealing to the us the event of the gathering of the church, where the dead will be resurrected first, with the living in Christ being changed and caught up with in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. After this Paul speaks about what follows after the resurrection and catching away:


"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. 5For you are all sons of the light and sons of the day; we do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6So then, let us not sleep as the others do, but let us remain awake and sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night; and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation.
9For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The destruction mentioned above that they (unbelievers) will not escape, is in reference to the God's wrath on this earth and not eternal destruction. In the first scripture, Paul is revealing the gathering of the church dead and living, then he mentions the wrath, which follows, stating that "when they say peace and safety destruction will come on them suddenly." Then he says, "But you brothers are not in darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief." Just reading the words "But you brothers" would infer the opposite of not escaping.

So Paul is writing about the gathering of the church, which he then follows with the mentioning of God's coming wrath, that time of sudden destruction, which will take place like a woman having birth pains. Regarding birth pains, they start off mild and father apart and continue to increase in intensity and growing closer together. So Paul's use of this phrase is demonstrating that time of destruction as a period of time during which God's wrath is being poured out upon the inhabitants of the earth during that time of tribulation and not the judgment referring to the lake of fire.

The second count, which I have shared with you before is that, regardless of whether wrath referring to the time of God's wrath here upon the earth or wrath proper in hell, as you claim, the church is not appointed to suffer any wrath at all. And so it still stands that believers are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God during the tribulation nor the his final wrath in the lake of fire.

The fact remains that, from right now until Christ returns to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. We, the church, are not appointed to suffer that wrath nor the wrath of condemning judgment in the lake of fire. Therefore your argument is moot. For the since the wrath of God is coming upon this earth first and believers are not appointed to suffer any wrath, then the gathering must take place prior to the on-set of that wrath. And the reason why believers are not appointed to suffer wrath, is because the wrath that we deserve was poured out on the Lord, satisfying the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins.

The wrath of God will take place on this earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The wrath of condemning judgment will take place at the great white throne judgment where everyone whose name is not written in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. The church is not appointed to suffer the wrath that is coming upon this earth and that because we have been reconciled through the blood of Christ and have been credited with righteousness. Likewise, believers will not appear at the great white throne judgment, because we are not appointed to suffer that wrath. Believers will have already been judged at the Bema seat, not for sin, but for our works, whether good or bad.

The bottom line is, the church is not appointed to suffer any wrath at all. And since the wrath of God upon this earth takes place before the condemning judgment in the lake of fire, the church will be gathered prior to the on-set of that wrath which takes place upon the earth, which is what Paul is taking about in those verses that you listed.

The gathering of the church takes place, followed by the time of destruction upon the earth. That time of destruction is what the information regarding the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all about in the book of Revelation. This coming wrath is what the book of Revelation is proclaiming in the very first verse:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him to show his servants the things that must soon take place."

The majority of the book of Revelation is given to that time of wrath, the day of the Lord, the time of vengeance, the hour of trial, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

 

[joaniemarie]

Hi Joan: Paul said that Israel is a tree and that the church was branches IN THAT TREE. Paul did not make the distinction that you seem to be making. The church is made up of the chosen of Israel and the chosen of the gentiles. So the bible never separates Israel from the church as some have tried to do. The church contained the chosen of Israel, the saved of Israel, with the saved of the gentiles. There is a prophecy that in the last days what is left of the nation of Israel will turn to Jesus Christ, however right now the church are the branches of the tree of Israel with the gentiles grafted in.

God is not finished with Israel and prophecy has to be fulfilled about Israel here on earth. All prophecy has to be fulfilled., that is God's way, He always finishes what He starts. That is what is going on with Israel.

The church is made up of anyone who personally receives Jesus while in this time before He comes for His bride (the church) Israel will not accept the Messiah during this time., but individual Jewish believers have accepted Jesus as Messiah., as their personal Savior just like we who have been grafted in.

But the bride (the church) will not be here when the tribulation begins. We will be with Christ in heaven. Later when He comes back a 2nd time., we will be with Him. The church is not Israel and Israel is not the church. There is a difference between the nation of Israel in prophecy and individual Jewish people who have and who will receive Christ before the tribulation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hey Pop: Margaret Mc Donald is partly responsible for the false pre-trib rapture, it is true that she did not say that the church had to go before the tribulation, however she had the rapture invisible except to believers, something not taught in the bible but taught by pre-trib folks.

Yeah, the problem with your claim samuel23, is that one would have to read and follow Margaret McDonald as their primary source of interpreting scripture. You people continue to go to these apologetics stating Margaret, Darby and Calvin, etc.. I am happy to disappoint you, but I have never read anything by any of these people. All information regarding the church being gathered prior to God's wrath has been garnered strictly from the word of God.

 

[joaniemarie]

Yeah, the problem with your claim samuel23, is that one would have to read and follow Margaret McDonald as their primary source of interpreting scripture. You people continue to go to these apologetics stating Margaret, Darby and Calvin, etc.. I am happy to disappoint you, but I have never read anything by any of these people. All information regarding the church being gathered prior to God's wrath has been garnered strictly from the word of God.

Amen to that. To appreciate the fact that Jesus has done all there is to secure us as saints is a wonderful thing. We are also the sheep of His pasture. Knowing this truth allows us to stand in the face of whatever comes here on earth.

To know the love of God in Christ gives believers confidence and a boldness to walk by faith knowing the One who keeps us neither slumbers or sleeps! He is our great High Priest who sat down because His work is finished. No more sacrifices needed anymore for sin. All the earthly high priests never sat down and always had to come back with new blood sacrifices.

Jesus is the only High Priest who sat down. That is why He is called the Great High Priest. He went into the Holy of Holies for us. No more blood sacrifices needed. We have better blood than that of bulls and goats.

He is for us and not against us. If we don't have this confidence we would be tossed two and fro with every wind of doctrine. We would be open to the devils constant lies of condemnation that says we are not good enough. Jesus took care of our unworthiness by giving us His righteousness. We have already been judged when Jesus died on the cross for us.

There is so much JOY to be had knowing this. I hope our brethren here will have their eyes open and walk in light of His love for their well being even NOW as well as LATER.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hi Billy: You obviously did not read my post, it is very dangerous to believe in a false pre-trib rapture. You will be judged by God for rejecting the truth and accepting a lie, and for the souls of people who fell away because of your teaching.

Believing that the Lord will gather his church prior to his wrath is not dangerous. What is dangerous, are those who do not acknowledge that believers have been reconciled and credited with righteousness and that because Christ already took upon himself the wrath that we deserve and are therefore excluded from the coming wrath and the final wrath as well.

True believers are looking forward to the blessed hope, the Lord's appearing to gather his church prior to his wrath. You people on the other hand are not truly recognizing that the Lord has already experienced God's wrath on our behalf and are instead looking forward to going through it.

The on-going error is that you're not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath and not recognizing that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to end the age as being two separate events.

The wrath of God upon the entire earth, will be against those who have continued to reject His Son and who continue to live according to the sinful nature. So why would the Lord leave his church here on earth during that time? Since the church has already received Christ and has repented, why would God still send his church through his wrath with the unrighteous?

You don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath upon this earth! Nor are you believing in the promise of the Lord, nor are you recognizing what Christ has truly done for believers. For if you did, you would not be insisting that the Lord is going to put his church through his wrath first and then gather them afterwards.

 

[bluto]

I get all that ahwatukee regarding the context of 1 Thessalonians 13-17. What I'm saying is that the Apostle Paul is changing gears or bottom lining his discourse by saying at chapter 5 that the "wrath" specifically has to do with those that are not saved in opposition to those that are saved.

If you read the rest of chapter 5 starting at vs11 to the end you will see Paul is admonishing and encouraging them to live upright lives, pray, be faithful, listen to their teachers so (vs23) "the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body BE PRESERVED complete, without blame as the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Vs24, "Faithful is He who CALLS you, and He also will bring it to pass."

In other words, because God is faithful believers can depend on Him to do what He has promised (which includes His coming) and to act in carrying out His great plan and purpose of "REMEMPTION." I like to keep things simple and in order. Btw, I was not the one that brought up mary macdonald, it was popey who brought her up. I too am not interested in the dreams or visions of others telling me what is suppose to happen at the end.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Ahwatukee]

Amen to that. To appreciate the fact that Jesus has done all there is to secure us as saints is a wonderful thing. We are also the sheep of His pasture. Knowing this truth allows us to stand in the face of whatever comes here on earth.

To know the love of God in Christ gives believers confidence and a boldness to walk by faith knowing the One who keeps us neither slumbers or sleeps! He is our great High Priest who sat down because His work is finished. No more sacrifices needed anymore for sin. All the earthly high priests never sat down and always had to come back with new blood sacrifices.

Jesus is the only High Priest who sat down. That is why He is called the Great High Priest. He went into the Holy of Holies for us. No more blood sacrifices needed. We have better blood than that of bulls and goats.

He is for us and not against us. If we don't have this confidence we would be tossed two and fro with every wind of doctrine. We would be open to the devils constant lies of condemnation that says we are not good enough. Jesus took care of our unworthiness by giving us His righteousness. We have already been judged when Jesus died on the cross for us.

There is so much JOY to be had knowing this. I hope our brethren here will have their eyes open and walk in light of His love for their well being even NOW as well as LATER.

Amen to that Joaniemarie! I would love nothing better than for believers to be in agreement with the truth. The fact that the word of God is under attack regarding every Biblical topic, tells me that we are nearing the time of the Lord's appearing, with his wrath to follow. If believers were to be gathered after God's wrath, it would be no blessed hope, nor could we comfort each other. It would only be a blessed hope and a comfort to us if the we are gathered prior to God's wrath.

Surly believers should always be prepared to keep their faith under persecution and even under the threat of death. But the coming wrath of God should not be confused with the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have. There is a big difference between the two. Currently all believers are susceptible to the trials and tribulation that Jesus said we would have. But coming wrath of God is something completely different, which believers are not appointed to suffer and that because Christ already suffered God's wrath on our behalf. This is what I have been attempting to convey to those who believe that we will not be gathered until after God's wrath.

Because they don't recognize the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two different events. And because they don't recognize the difference between the common trials and tribulation that comes at the hands of mankind vs. God's coming wrath, they continue to err in their interpretation of the Lord's promise to gather us and take us back to the Father's house.

The Lord is going to remove his church so that he can unleash his full wrath upon this earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

 

[samuel23]

Hi Joan: You would have a hard time convincing the first church that were all of Israel that Israel and the church are totally separate. Ever read the book of Hebrews? It was sent to the Israel that believed in Jesus Christ. Your assertion that there is a difference between the nation of Israel and individual Jewish Christians is absurd and does not agree with the bible, Paul was a Jewish Christian who clearly defined himself as a member of the nation of Israel, as did all the early church who were members of the nation of Israel. Paul said, I was taking money to MY NATION(Israel). You are right in one respect, at a point in the future the rest of the nation of Israel will come into the body of Christ where all the other members of Israel who have accepted Christ are along with the gentile believers. One of the most goofy ideas to come down the pike is that a Israelis who believes in Jesus Christ ceases to be a national Israelis. That is like saying an American Indian who becomes a Christian ceases to be an American Indian...goofy stuff, however if you want to believe it then enjoy it while you can.

 

[Agricola]

Hi Billy: You obviously did not read my post, it is very dangerous to believe in a false pre-trib rapture. You will be judged by God for rejecting the truth and accepting a lie, and for the souls of people who fell away because of your teaching.

So God is going to judge people based on what theology they subscribe to? Really? is that what you mean?

The only danger I can think of is that people will not identify the Anti-Christ thinking they will be raptured out. But we are still a long way off from that.

 

[Rondonmon]

The people were restless in the large and beautiful sanctuary, Pastor James Hardin was nervous himself, so many strange things had been happening. It had been some time now since the man who people called The Master had taken over control of all the governments, some of the big TV Ministries had welcomed him with open arms, but not his people, the man could not complete a sentence without cursing God. At first his people had been thrilled by the developments because the looming tribulation and what seemed to be the Antichrist caused them to know that the rapture had to happen any day. However the days came and the days went, and no raptured occurred. A crowd had formed around a particular Deacon and he seemed to be their spokesman. Presently he stood up and asked to speak, the Pastor nodded and he begin. Pastor, you know that we all believe just like you do, that the rapture has to occur before the tribulation and the Antichrist, but Pastor this certainly seems to be the tribulation and that man who they call The Master certainly seems to be the Antichrist. Our question to you is, how come Jesus has not returned to rapture us? The Deacon continued, we heard just this morning that the little church at Sunnydale were all arrested last Wednesday and no one has seen any of them since. Pastor we are in a panic, did Jesus forget to come? Is Satan actually stronger then God? Many people have just given it up and joined the government, there is talk of this happening right here. Pastor give us some hope, what is wrong, where is the rapture? Pastor James Hardin felt the most awful fear enter his heart, what could he possibly say to these people, hold on it could happen any day? That had been his sermon for more times then he cared to count, but the reality was that nothing happened, he wished he had the power to call Jesus down to rapture those poor confused souls, but he did not. What could he possible say, he was totally confused himself. How could God let them down when they had believed so faithfully? Finally he said to the people, I don't know why Jesus did not return, I simply do not know. Suddenly one of the members jumped up, he was obviously very angry, YOU DON'T KNOW, he screamed, all the lives of these people are in your hands and you tell us you don't know! At this point Past James Hardin had to flee for his life.

This again? SMH.....

When you make the Rapture, or if you are raised from the Dead and see the Raptured joining you I hope you have an amazed look on your face. This is not that difficult.

 

[Johnny_B]

Thank God for His grace, whether He transforms me before the GT or whether He takes me up after, His grace will be sufficient for me. If He takes me before I will be with Him for eternity, if not I know He will in a few years. I'm not sure where I stand, I was a strict pre-trib. Here's where no one seems to have an answer. The story of Noah and Lot, they were both taken out of the judgement on the wicked, with Noah he was in the Ark the day the flood came, yet he was also preserved through that judgement. Lot the fire and brimstone did not rain down until he left the city, then the judgement came, he was rescued from the judgement he was totally taken out. In Luke 17 Jesus put both of them in His teaching on the coming kingdom.

I think calling it a false doctrine or of the devil is dangerous because if it is true where does that put you. Paul said prophecy is in part, but when the perfect cones we will fully know or as Daniel put it in 9:24 all prophecy will be fulfilled. So no one fully knows what is going to happen. Sure we can say, but the prophecies of His first coming were all true, of course they were but, we are looking at them after they were fulfilled. After Jesus explained the destruction if the Temple, the sign of His coming and the end of the age to the disciples and what did they think about those things? In Acts 1:6 “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

So after the Lord Himself explained it all to them, somehow it seems that they thought that His resurrection was His return and He was going to judge the world, I did say it seems. Whatever they believed they had in their minds that His resurrection somehow lead to the restoration of the kingdom of Israel. There were more then like people that viewed the suffering servant prophecies as it being a picture of Israel's sufferings (an assumption) and that why the Messiah would come in triumph. So don't be so sure about your eschatology, here's something to think about. God has always delivered the just from judgement on the wicked.

Here's what Peter says II Peter 2:4-9 "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,10 and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority."

Which one is it, preserve or rescue, doe He preserve us through the GT or does He rescue us from the GT?

 

[JustWhoIAm]

Which one is it, preserve or rescue, doe He preserve us through the GT or does He rescue us from the GT?

Both men lived through the disaster they were facing by taking action when warned. Noah built a boat, Lot fled out of the city and both remained on the earth while judgement was happening. They appear to mean basically the same thing in the scripture you just gave.

 

[samuel23]

The story of Jonah and Noah was to point out that the wicked people of the world would not understand the judgment of God until it was too late...does anyone actually read the bible? They knew not until the flood came and took them all away, and, on the day Lot left Sodom they were all destroyed by fire. The part about how the righteous was saved is of a secondary importance, the main point Jesus made was that the ungodly people of the world would not understand the judgement of God until it was too late. One man escaped in a boat and the other man escaped by walking out, so what?...Jesus already said in Matt 24, and Mark 13 that the church will go through the great tribulation. Also Paul said we cannot be gathered until after the Antichrist is revealed. John described the church in Heaven after having gone through(not saved during)the great tribulation. It is all right there in the bible...fight it if you must but you cannot change the mind of God.

 

[Johnny_B]

Both men lived through the disaster they were facing by taking action when warned. Noah built a boat, Lot fled out of the city and both remained on the earth while judgement was happening. They appear to mean basically the same thing in the scripture you just gave.

Thanks, at the time of the GT there will be no safe zone (for lack of a better term) on earth, during the GT the judgement is on the whole face of the world, right or is it just in/on Israel?

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question, is the Noah and Lot stories, do they represent the Church or what do they represent, if anything? I see that God judges wickedness and rescues/preserves His people from it's wrath and I see, "delivers us from the wrath to come" and "God did not appoint us to wrath" this is not judgement, other translations have "God"s anger" so it's not talking about us being saved from God's judgement. I am not using these as a proof text, I'm looking for some help to understand.

Does Noah represent the Jews and Lot the Church? Any help will be appreciated, I was in dispensationalist Churches before, but I don't believe their interpretation of the Olivet Discourse.

 

[Rockrz]

Hey, if you wanna stay here when God pours out His wrath upon all mankind... enjoy!

Whatever cooks yo chilli man...

 

[Johnny_B]

The story of Jonah and Noah was to point out that the wicked people of the world would not understand the judgment of God until it was too late...does anyone actually read the bible? They knew not until the flood came and took them all away, and, on the day Lot left Sodom they were all destroyed by fire. The part about how the righteous was saved is of a secondary importance, the main point Jesus made was that the ungodly people of the world would not understand the judgement of God until it was too late. One man escaped in a boat and the other man escaped by walking out, so what?...Jesus already said in Matt 24, and Mark 13 that the church will go through the great tribulation. Also Paul said we cannot be gathered until after the Antichrist is revealed. John described the church in Heaven after having gone through(not saved during)the great tribulation. It is all right there in the bible...fight it if you must but you cannot change the mind of God.

Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.For we know in part and we prophesy in part,but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

 

[Johnny_B]

DERP.

Since we are still decades away from said taking place, shouldn't we be concerned about more urgent matters?

Amen!!! Growing in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Equipping the saints to reach the lost souls that are appointed to eternal life, that are commanded to repent by God.

Come to mind.