Lord we need you! Foundational truths

[Ariel82]

Wait Peter who teaches this?

"What is obvious is as a group they deny walking righteously, and continually go back to
sin which is impossible to be free from"

Because I know for a fact Grace777 doesn't and neither does EG.., so who is this group?


You see this is what I mean by hyprocrisy.

 

[Ariel82]

Can you prove the slander? I saw nothing in what Grace said that says that could be construed as a tirasde against good works. The context of what he spoke of was how to be saved.

I think your trying to see things which are not there.

No I am trying to show how an honest miscommunication can deevlove into a name calling, mud slinging mess because people are too prideful to ask questions and too busy proving a point to actually listen.

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel - I ask for a little patience. I express my faith simply, and connect each concept
with biblical theology. I am then told I am a works salvationist and need to repent,
and believe differently. The words I use are repeated back at me, and then I realise
the theology is the same except they imagine differences and decide to say I am anti-Christ.

Now I have no clue what they are, just playing games with words, denying one set of ideas,
and then including them back in a different context. So it is just about antagonism and authority,
which they believe they deserve and others like myself should be excluded as we are leading
people to hell.

In their world I hope they are happy but this double speak has nothing to do with me,
and I will still share and witness to the reality in my heart.

What is obvious is as a group they deny walking righteously, and continually go back to
sin which is impossible to be free from. God bless them, for they sit in a prison of their
unbelief. The cross is about impossible victory and fulfilled dreams of knowing love working
through our whole being. This is what the gifts of the spirit are for and how we minister
one to another.

For a group not under condemnation, and not aware of sin but righteousness, is it not totally
hypocritical when all their preaching is about the failure of others "legalists", how evil they
are and how they totally fail. And when you ask them about their walk, it is always sin
which they are aware of, because without this condemnation, they would not know they needed
Christ so much. Now if you understand this total failure you know what walking in Christ is.
And that is the problem, they are attacking the people of God.

Now when I walk with Christ I know I need Him because He is love and I desire to express this
love to others. When I see need, my heart opens and wish to meet it, to bring healing and hope,
to lift up the broken hearted and offer a future with Jesus and His ways.

Notice the difference, and our calling in Christ.

I agree both "groups" are being blind and hypocritical.

Most of the accusations leveled against the other person is clearly reflected in the log of their own eye and their and your behavior reveals that neither of you live what you preach to others.

For you do to others what you claim they do to you.
.You say they have a false vospel, neither listens to what the other truly believes but declares false statements about what the other believes

Then both parties hell SLANDER!

Then when someone like me comes along and says "why are you arguing, I have spoken to both of you and know that you don't believe what other person accuses you of. You both just have a really different way of expressing your beliefs. God is teaching you each a different lesson from the Bible at this time in your life and that's okay. Why are you fighting?"

Then both turn and attack me and basically call me blind.

When I get frustrated and start yelling, I am asked to be patient.

In truth I am just weary and need new reading glasses..pcked the wrong one for my camping trip and 10 hours from home.

I have a sick boy scout who had to be picked up today. Diaherrea ..,prayers for him appreciAted.

Anyway back to reading the thread..,,

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I agree both "groups" are being blind and hypocritical.

Most of the accusations leveled against the other person is clearly reflected in the log of their own eye and their and your behavior reveals that neither of you live what you preach to others.

For you do to others what you claim they do to you.
.You say they have a false vospel, neither listens to what the other truly believes but declares false statements about what the other believes

Then both parties hell SLANDER!

Then when someone like me comes along and says "why are you arguing, I have spoken to both of you and know that you don't believe what other person accuses you of. You both just have a really different way of expressing your beliefs. God is teaching you each a different lesson from the Bible at this time in your life and that's okay. Why are you fighting?"

Then both turn and attack me and basically call me blind.

When I get frustrated and start yelling, I am asked to be patient.

In truth I am just weary and need new reading glasses..pcked the wrong one for my camping trip and 10 hours from home.

I have a sick boy scout who had to be picked up today. Diaherrea ..,prayers for him appreciAted.

Anyway back to reading the thread..,,

Praying for your boy

 

[Ariel82]

Yes.........for sure the Law doesn't save and that it reveals the truth that without Christ we are not righteous. It reveals our need for a Savior which we know is Christ Himself.

We don't need the law of Moses now. We live in the New Covenant now. God doesn't preach us the Law of Moses once we come to Christ - He preaches to us the "gospel - the good news of His Son and what He has done".

Colossians 3:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16[/SUP] Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you, with all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Well how do we live now if we don't live by the Law of Moses? That is a good question.

People often say to those that speak of the grace of God and that they are not under the law of Moses anymore that they believe they are without "laws" now.

We do have laws in the New Covenant. They are exciting laws that bring life and wholeness to us all - because these are all Christ Himself in us.

We now live by:

1) The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. ( Romans 8:2 )

2) The law of love ( Romans 13:10 James 2:8 )

3) The law of faith ( Romans 3:27 and the law of Moses is NOT of faith - Gal. 3:12 )

4) The law of liberty ( James 1:25 )

5) The law of Christ - which is Christ Himself in us. ( Gal. 6:2 )

We can trust the Holy Spirit in us to lead us in all affairs of life. We don't go back to the law of Moses that were a shadow of the real thing which is Christ in us.. Jesus is more then enough.

Yes...we glory in the laws that we have in the New Covenant because they are all Christ Himself living in and through us. ( Gal.2:20 and Col. 3:3 )

We also have the sermon on the Mount.

There is no "law of Moses"

There is God's laws given to Israel under the old covenant of slavery because they rejected God speaking to them face to face and demanded that Moses be a mediator so they didnt have to directly hear from God again (thus all the ceremonial laws, etc.)

And we have the spirtual laws God gives to His people who believe in the Gospel from Adam and Eve and Abel to John the Baptist and Anna the prohetess.

The 'gospel" has always beer Goes promise to Adam and Eve, Abraham and. Moses to send the promised Seed to redeem God's people of their sins.

The OT saints looked forward to Christ on the. Cross and we look back in time to God's accomplished plan I reclaiming His people.

 

[Ariel82]

Repentance, confession and walking righteously is law.

Gospel is the knowledge that all the Power and Blessing contained in the law is freely given by the Lord Jesus Christ.


Most people kind of blur the lines between cause and effect causing the proverbial cart to be placed before the horse.

If you are saved do you repent? Yes...
If you are saved do you confess? Yes...
If you are saved do you walk righteously? Yes...

So they are obviously part of Salvation and therefore the gospel. No... They are the product of Salvation. Fruit.

The Law is only part of the gospel in that it brings us to Christ and the knowledge that He is All-Sufficient. Otherwise, law can be and is, anti-gospel.

How can you say the law is antigospel and the fruit of the gospel in one post and expect that to make sense?

I don't believe the law is anti gospel..

Yes it leads one to Christ, yes you follow God's spiritual law after being saved, yes putting the cart before the horse is works salvation.....

But how do you then make the leap to say the law is anti gospel?

If you said works salvation is anti gospel, okay I agree.

If you said people who believe the law can save them are deluded, then I would agree.

But to call God's holy laws, anti gospel, no that is a lie.

God's laws are holy and good even if corrupt men twist and misuse them to condemn and judge people falsely.

Perhaps you could clarify your meaning, because I find it hard to believe you would say that. So I must be misunderstanding something.

 

[Ariel82]

Praying for your boy

He isn't my son, but until his mom gets here tomorrow, I guess I can adopt him.

She has a 5 hr drive, so around lunch time.

 

[Ariel82]

This is where the language goes south. If we are Christs work and we can do nothing
without Christ, then all good works we do are Christs good works, end of story.

You forgot the most important part:

With God anything is possible and that God made us uniquely for a divine purpose, we just have to keep seeking Him and he will teach and equip us for the good works He intends for us to do.

The thought still amazed me.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

How can you say the law is antigospel and the fruit of the gospel in one post and expect that to make sense?

I don't believe the law is anti gospel..

Yes it leads one to Christ, yes you follow God's spiritual law after being saved, yes putting the cart before the horse is works salvation.....

But how do you then make the leap to say the law is anti gospel?

If you said works salvation is anti gospel, okay I agree.

If you said people who believe the law can save them are deluded, then I would agree.

But to call God's holy laws, anti gospel, no that is a lie.

God's laws are holy and good even if corrupt men twist and misuse them to condemn and judge people falsely.

Perhaps you could clarify your meaning, because I find it hard to believe you would say that. So I must be misunderstanding something.

The law is far from anti gospel the OT teaches us who God is and we have to remember the OT is the only thing Jesus and the early church taught from. That has to say something in itself.

 

[Ariel82]

BINGO!!! To deny sanctification as part and parcel to the Gospel will cause those who do so to fall under 2 Timothy 3:5 as it is what they are doing - denying the transforming power of the Gospel, which is godliness, and leaves these as only having a "form of godliness". It is to deny the truth of the Gospel and preach a truncated version. Note 2 Timothy 3:12 as well.

Those who preach "believe" and leave it at that, and, reject other passages that show evidence of salvation, and reject passages that qualify what a true believer looks like are preaching again, a curtailed message and another gospel. This is why churches are in trouble, not because of those who preach the whole Gospel. Conflating the true Gospel with legalism is a misnomer and blatantly false.

My church isn't in trouble. Visted a Methodist church here in the mountains for Palm Sunday in my camping gear.

Is it strange that not being raised Christian, I didn't think twice about what I wore to church?

The older couple with me was self concious and said they almost didn't go because they didn't pack "church clothes"


No one at the church cared. They were so warm and welcoming and even let my daughter who is 9 pass out the palms and greet people. She had so much fun.

The pastor said I could bring my dog to Bible study Tuesday since I brought her camping with us and you can't leave a dog alone in a state park.

Antway, praying we can go and that the boys will be safe and maybe go to their breakfast for dinner on Friday. They invited the other local churches to come and fellowship.

Sound like fun, but we take it day by day...sometimes minute by minute when running base camp for a 50 mile backpacking crew....from Table Rock to Grandfather mountain on the MTS trail...

Lord Jesus, i pray that you keep bears and calamity far from them.

 

[JustWhoIAm]

John said to Jesus, “Master, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he isn’t in our group.” But Jesus said, “Don’t stop him! Anyone who is not against you is for you.”

...

 

[Ariel82]

The above is what happens when one assumes what others have said, and are not addressing what was actually said. It is so sad to see this over and again on this forum, the perpetual knee jerk accusatory reaction. It is hardly Christian in wisdom or response...

As soon as someone mentions the entire Gospel, such as evidence, the walk, sanctification, fruit the knee jerk response and false accusation is "WORKS SALVATION!!!". Utterly ridiculous, callow, short-sighted and false. No wonder there is little real dialog with this talking past one another nonsense. This is what takes place with the truncated gospel crowd, and it is sad.

I liked your post until I got to the end with the name calling as well.

There is nothing wrong with EG or Grace777 gospel theology. They do not have a "transacted gospel." they just see in others what Jesus just recently revealed to them.

It reminds me of a story when I spent 3 hours. Trying to teach my 2 year old that his toy car was black and not blue..,leave to go shopping for 39 mind...my son runs up to me and says "mom,car black!" as if I had told him all wrong and he had to teach me it right via Dadddy told him.

Asked my husband how he got him to realise it was black.,hubby gave confused look, said. "He walked up,held up his care and said BLUE! And I said "no black"

He laughed when I told him I had tried for 4 hours to teach him that,

That's how God does things in my life. Folks tell me for years that something is this way and I stubbornly reject it until God comes and tells me once and it's all clear. Then I want to tell everyone else too. Ignoring the fact they might have already said it or was trying to tell me it for years.

Did any of that make sense?


To continue the list of precincieves notions some people have..,

PeterJens doesn't teach works salvation. He may need some help with believing in or understanding what is truly meant by eternal security of the saints,which is a different topic ...(note saying someone is in "Unbelief" or calling them a works salcatiknamist siesnt not help make them feel secure and loved by God.) this defeating any awrmin about Gids love and the pwrservance of saints)

Stephen doctrine come strafe from Pentracostal handbook. Can't really find fault I. His theology since he follow denominational lines.

I have seen bad behavior from everyone in this forum,myself included.

The world is full of sinners, CC is no different.

However what is different is the chastenment of the holy spirit.

You noticed I sometimes post and then delete things because God convicts me of my words and tells me that I am wrong and not speaking His love to the world as I should.

The difference between God's people and the world is that God causes our heart to be sorrowful and repent when we sin.
He makes us place down our offerings and make ammenda with a brother or sister we offended.

 

[Ariel82]

To add to my post re graces comments,

If people would ASK him what he meant, instead of AASSUMING they know. There would be ALOT less misunderstanding

Communication is a two way street.

We try our best to express our beliefs in a language the hearer can understand and they restate and ask questions.

We affirm or gently correct a misunderstanding and then listen to what they believe in the subject.

That is how a civil discussion and bible study works.

However CC more often works like this.

Person A: this is what I believe, it's God's truth. To question me is to deny God.

Person B: wait what do you mean when you say...

Person A: heretical wolf, you have rejected God!

****

Yeah an extreme example.

Let's try a more realistic one?

Person A: I want to talk about how the Holy Spriit is calling me to live a godly life, but am still learning what all these terms mean so might confuse the words at times but I really just want to live a godly life and follow Jesus because he has done so much for me, I really do love him and I love y'all too. Let's talk about how we can glorify God and how God has freed us of our sins and how we no longer have to follow old sinful patterns of behavior because we are new creations! Through Gids power we can learn to live holy lives and follow God's laws and commandments.

Person 2: did you say laws and commandments? God just freed me from the lie of works salvation, do you need to,be freed too? Here let me help you how I was helped, let me tell at you and keep telling you how wrong you are because it worked for me so it must work for everyone, the way God made me see must fit everyone,because everyone knows there is only one prescription for the CORRECT way to see things. CUZ YOU HAVE TO HAVE HAD THE SAME BLINDNESS AS ME AND NEED THE SAME TREATMENT I GOT TO FIX MY ISSUES! What do mean you don't eant,my help? That your issues are not the same as my issues?WHAT YOU WOLF, YOU WORKS SALVATIONIST, UNSAVED..,.PERSON.

Person 1: no you are the wolf,you don't want to teach people about godliness and you are attacking me so I will attack you back because I am right and if you don't agree with me even when I say things I. A confusing manner and have a hard time explaining my beliefs, then you are fighting with God not me.,,I will now put everyone into boxes of for and against me and label everyone against me with all the sins of the others and not care if my version of them is true or just a made up figment of my hurt pride.

 

[Ariel82]

Imagine the discussions that are happening here, and Jesus walks by.
One person runs up and asks, Jesus, do you do good things?

Would he say no, I just believe in good things, or ofcourse good things flow
from me because that is what goodness is, the seeing and doing good things.

Now if this is true for Christ it is also true for His followers who take Him
as their example. And if they are Christ on earth to the world one expects
no less.

I would imagine he might mention not digging holes for others to fall into or just right in the sand like he did when folks wanted to stone the adulterous woman.

Let me say it s.......l.....,o.....w......l...y

NO
ONE
IS
AGAINST
GOOD WORKS
AFTER SALVATION!


They are against works righteous and constant slander.

 

[Ariel82]

John said to Jesus, “Master, we saw someone using your name to cast out demons, but we told him to stop because he isn’t in our group.” But Jesus said, “Don’t stop him! Anyone who is not against you is for you.”

...

And in this world some who claim to be for you, are secretly against you.

 

[Ariel82]

This is where the language goes south. If we are Christs work and we can do nothing
without Christ, then all good works we do are Christs good works, end of story.

Why does language go south? They sound the samw,.,gonna keep reading

 

[JustWhoIAm]

Communication is a two way street.

We try our best to express our beliefs in a language the hearer can understand and they restate and ask questions.

We affirm or gently correct a misunderstanding and then listen to what they believe in the subject.

That is how a civil discussion and bible study works.

However CC more often works like this.

Person A: this is what I believe, it's God's truth. To question me is to deny God.

Person B: wait what do you mean when you say...

Person A: heretical wolf, you have rejected God!

****

Yeah an extreme example.

Let's try a more realistic one?

Person A: I want to talk about how the Holy Spriit is calling me to live a godly life, but am still learning what all these terms mean so might confuse the words at times but I really just want to live a godly life and follow Jesus because he has done so much for me, I really do love him and I love y'all too. Let's talk about how we can glorify God and how God has freed us of our sins and how we no longer have to follow old sinful patterns of behavior because we are new creations! Through Gids power we can learn to live holy lives and follow God's laws and commandments.

Person 2: did you say laws and commandments? God just freed me from the lie of works salvation, do you need to,be freed too? Here let me help you how I was helped, let me tell at you and keep telling you how wrong you are because it worked for me so it must work for everyone, the way God made me see must fit everyone,because everyone knows there is only one prescription for the CORRECT way to see things. CUZ YOU HAVE TO HAVE HAD THE SAME BLINDNESS AS ME AND NEED THE SAME TREATMENT I GOT TO FIX MY ISSUES! What do mean you don't eant,my help? That your issues are not the same as my issues?WHAT YOU WOLF, YOU WORKS SALVATIONIST, UNSAVED..,.PERSON.

Person 1: no you are the wolf,you don't want to teach people about godliness and you are attacking me so I will attack you back because I am right and if you don't agree with me even when I say things I. A confusing manner and have a hard time explaining my beliefs, then you are fighting with God not me.,,I will now put everyone into boxes of for and against me and label everyone against me with all the sins of the others and not care if my version of them is true or just a made up figment of my hurt pride.

We don't have to agree 100% with other people, do we? There are always arguments over terms and interpretations and we have good reason not to compromise what we believe a lot of the time but is it something to quarrel over?

I'm thinking the answer lies in submission to God.

 

[Ariel82]

Hidden realities. Now the idea is religion people will hate the truth so hide it.
Good works are the point of judgement because sin has been removed, so evil works
are ones done not from the spirit, so they must be of the self.

So the odd thing is, good things then become evil. How can we go from the normal
world with obvious definitions into this alien world with non moral judgements or
conclusions, and ways that are just absurd.

Followers of this way end up trying to diagnose reasons why they do everything,
double guessing stuff but without any guide or sense. So not surprisingly most
of what they do they now regard as evil. No condemnation is a pretty mean
place in their world.

Ummm. You totally missed his point.

Let me translate to Peter language:

He is saying that whe, Muslims do what the world calls "good works" by feeding the poor or clothing orohans,God may not consider that good because they use that as a mean to lead people to the false religion of Islam.

One example when "good works" may not be from God.

 

[JustWhoIAm]

Ummm. You totally missed his point.

Let me translate to Peter language:

He is saying that whe, Muslims do what the world calls "good works" by feeding the poor or clothing orohans,God may not consider that good because they use that as a mean to lead people to the false religion of Islam.

One example when "good works" may not be from God.

Hm. Yeah, and Cyrus was a nonbeliever.

Not arguing, picking your brains.

 

[Ariel82]

The flesh manifests itself in a few forms in scripture. One common one is it is just talking about the body itself. Other times it is talking about doing things from our own self-effort and will-power.

Here we see that it has a "will".

John 1:13 (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We can judge after the flesh - which is by "outward appearance".

John 8:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

Doing righteous deeds by the flesh such as the keeping of the Law of Moses does not make one righteous in God's sight. This is a manifestation of "good looking flesh".

Romans 3:20 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Nothing good dwells in the flesh.

Romans 7:18 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

The mind set on the things of the flesh bring death.

Romans 8:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

No flesh shall glory in God's presence - thus we have wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption because of Christ alone and it is all God's doing - not anything we do or don't do in the flesh.

1 Corinthians 1:29-30 (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] That no flesh should glory in his presence.

[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Some think that we can be perfected by the flesh - which is foolishness. This is talking about our own self-effort and will-power to "do things" - like the keeping of Laws and doing "good deeds". Galatians is full of this truth. Again this is "good looking flesh".

Galatians 3:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul says that he puts no confidence in the flesh.

Philippians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,

It's good thing that when Jesus comes all flesh will be destroyed and we get new bodies.