Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer
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I like that. Thank you as that gave me some things to think about.
So would you say that if a Christian from love in their hearts giving a cup of cold water to someone would be a fragrance of Christ to someone perishing?
What if someone saw a Christian give a cup of cold water to someone but then the next day see them doing a work of the flesh - like "outbursts of anger". Would that make them a non-believer now because they didn't exhibit the fruit of patience?
To use the analogy - Would we then say that they are now not an "orange tree" because there was no full grown fruit of an actual orange yet in a particular area?
So would you say that if a Christian from love in their hearts giving a cup of cold water to someone would be a fragrance of Christ to someone perishing?
What if someone saw a Christian give a cup of cold water to someone but then the next day see them doing a work of the flesh - like "outbursts of anger". Would that make them a non-believer now because they didn't exhibit the fruit of patience?
To use the analogy - Would we then say that they are now not an "orange tree" because there was no full grown fruit of an actual orange yet in a particular area?
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Good gracious I am not talking about what saves us!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am talking about what is expected after Jesus saves you....and not about maintaining my salvation either....
Good grief, it must be really awesome for one to say wow Jesus and his grace saved me and well that's all I need now...I wont go tell others, I will not live my life in the pursuit of reaching others for Jesus, cuz ya know, I got my self taken care off and that's all that matters.....
Either several of you are so selfish you are blind or so glib you have no idea what you are called to do AFTER you get saved and that it has nothing to do with OBTAINING or MAINTAINING your salvation, but bearing fruit for the kingdom!
I am talking about what is expected after Jesus saves you....and not about maintaining my salvation either....
Good grief, it must be really awesome for one to say wow Jesus and his grace saved me and well that's all I need now...I wont go tell others, I will not live my life in the pursuit of reaching others for Jesus, cuz ya know, I got my self taken care off and that's all that matters.....
Either several of you are so selfish you are blind or so glib you have no idea what you are called to do AFTER you get saved and that it has nothing to do with OBTAINING or MAINTAINING your salvation, but bearing fruit for the kingdom!
All born-again Christians are pure in heart. It's the same reason why all water is wet. It's the very nature of it.
There is a working out of what already is in us and that is growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ.
Thank God that the gospel of the grace of Christ has given us believers a new heart which is pure because it is in Christ!
I believe that scripture teaches that we have new hearts now in Christ as a new creation in Him.
In the Old Testament David cried out prophetically - looking into this New Covenant and sais - "Create in me a clean heart O God". Jesus Himself says to "clean up the inside of the cup and the vessel will be clean".
We don't need to search our hearts for wrong things - we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ living in us now.
It's the flesh that "speaks" to us as all the "works" in Gal 5 are from the flesh. We are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 - but we are "in the Spirit" - our inner man in Christ.
We need as Christians to learn to live from this new heart that was "created" in us because of Christ's finished work for us.
I firmly believe we are confusing the "desires of the flesh which still has the law of sin in it" ( Romans 7:23 ) and wrongly calling it our heart.
We have been circumcised with the circumcision of the heart - called the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh. Col 2:11. This is also called "being sealed by the Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13
The Holy Spirit "cut away" ( as in physical circumcision ) the body of the flesh from the inner man who is in Christ - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:23
Here are the reasons why I believe we Christians have a new heart now in Christ and not a corrupted heart. We need to learn how to live from this new heart which is where Christ is in us as one spirit by the Holy Spirit.
The believers new heart in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.
Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heartto that form of teaching to which you were committed,
God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.
Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.
2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.
Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forththe Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
God has cleansed our hearts by faith.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love from our hearts now as it is pure.
1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )
1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.
We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.
There is a working out of what already is in us and that is growing in the grace and knowledge of Christ.
Thank God that the gospel of the grace of Christ has given us believers a new heart which is pure because it is in Christ!
I believe that scripture teaches that we have new hearts now in Christ as a new creation in Him.
In the Old Testament David cried out prophetically - looking into this New Covenant and sais - "Create in me a clean heart O God". Jesus Himself says to "clean up the inside of the cup and the vessel will be clean".
We don't need to search our hearts for wrong things - we need to have our minds renewed to the truth of Christ living in us now.
It's the flesh that "speaks" to us as all the "works" in Gal 5 are from the flesh. We are not "in the flesh" as Paul says in Romans 8:9 - but we are "in the Spirit" - our inner man in Christ.
We need as Christians to learn to live from this new heart that was "created" in us because of Christ's finished work for us.
I firmly believe we are confusing the "desires of the flesh which still has the law of sin in it" ( Romans 7:23 ) and wrongly calling it our heart.
We have been circumcised with the circumcision of the heart - called the circumcision of Christ and the body of flesh. Col 2:11. This is also called "being sealed by the Holy Spirit" Eph 1:13
The Holy Spirit "cut away" ( as in physical circumcision ) the body of the flesh from the inner man who is in Christ - the new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:23
Here are the reasons why I believe we Christians have a new heart now in Christ and not a corrupted heart. We need to learn how to live from this new heart which is where Christ is in us as one spirit by the Holy Spirit.
The believers new heart in Christ is created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.
Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )
Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.
Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heartto that form of teaching to which you were committed,
God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.
Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.
2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.
Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forththe Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
God has cleansed our hearts by faith.
Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
We love from our hearts now as it is pure.
1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. (this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )
1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.
There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.
We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.
Yes! now you are getting it....
Heavens no, they are still a believer!
Luke 13.6-9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; [SUP]9 [/SUP]and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”
The person is still an orange tree, but a more mature saint need to fertilize them, water them and help them cultivate fruit of peace....so they will not resort to fits of anger....by doing this you are bearing fruit that remains...
I hope this shows what I have been saying......
Heavens no, they are still a believer!
Luke 13.6-9
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ [SUP]8 [/SUP]And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; [SUP]9 [/SUP]and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”
The person is still an orange tree, but a more mature saint need to fertilize them, water them and help them cultivate fruit of peace....so they will not resort to fits of anger....by doing this you are bearing fruit that remains...
I hope this shows what I have been saying......
The other aspect is - what if this orange tree dies for some reason before it has those blossoms or produces mature fruit in the form of an orange. Does this mean it never was an orange tree to begin with? the Maker of the orange tree knows it's identity.
The thief on the cross had no blossoms or full grown fruit and yet he is with the Lord in paradise now.
The thief had the full grown fruit of repentance....remember what John the Baptist said to the self-righteous?
Matt 3.7-10
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; [SUP]9 [/SUP]and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
The thief confessed Jesus as Lord with his mouth and believed in his heart God was going to raise Jesus from the Dead....This is bearing fruit in keeping with repentance....The thief's repentance perfectly Illustrates Romans 10.9-13
Matt 3.7-10
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; [SUP]9 [/SUP]and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. [SUP]10 [/SUP]The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
The thief confessed Jesus as Lord with his mouth and believed in his heart God was going to raise Jesus from the Dead....This is bearing fruit in keeping with repentance....The thief's repentance perfectly Illustrates Romans 10.9-13
Fruit is a very interesting subject.
The fruit of learning is being able to repeat ones understanding.
So if you know Christ and have given your life over to Him, listening to His words
and following them is just natural.
It is why anyone really wonders about the fruit, because it is where we should be.
All the ideas about which type of tree are you etc. indicates so many people turn
up to meetings, have a faith experience and then wonder why nothing changes in
their life when the preacher implied it is like a magic relationship, rather than it
is simply starting to become aware of what sin and life and love actually are and
starting to walk in love from the heart.
It is not surprising when people just have a few words in their heads they think
this is it.
The fruit of learning is being able to repeat ones understanding.
So if you know Christ and have given your life over to Him, listening to His words
and following them is just natural.
It is why anyone really wonders about the fruit, because it is where we should be.
All the ideas about which type of tree are you etc. indicates so many people turn
up to meetings, have a faith experience and then wonder why nothing changes in
their life when the preacher implied it is like a magic relationship, rather than it
is simply starting to become aware of what sin and life and love actually are and
starting to walk in love from the heart.
It is not surprising when people just have a few words in their heads they think
this is it.
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Hi Peter,
I never said that teaching makes us righteous.
What I was saying is that if took the teaching of Jesus to mean that we could be sinless then there would have been no need for him to die.
I based that on quote I made in an earlier post
Trust me my friend I have experienced this big time and on a ongoing daily basis.
However I would just like to say that even though I don't want to sin in reality I will.
When I do that does not mean that I am no longer abiding in the vine, I come before say sorry and ask for his help, his pruning plyers and his refining fire.
I hope this clarifies what I ww trying to convey
I never said that teaching makes us righteous.
What I was saying is that if took the teaching of Jesus to mean that we could be sinless then there would have been no need for him to die.
I based that on quote I made in an earlier post
Trust me my friend I have experienced this big time and on a ongoing daily basis.
However I would just like to say that even though I don't want to sin in reality I will.
When I do that does not mean that I am no longer abiding in the vine, I come before say sorry and ask for his help, his pruning plyers and his refining fire.
I hope this clarifies what I ww trying to convey
You just want someone to say...."they must bear fruit to maintain salvation".....I never have said this...
Jesus said in John 15 they will....
Jesus said that if we abide in him we will bear fruit, we don't bear fruit if we do not abide in him , he further states that the Father is glorified in this, that we bear much fruit, and doing so we prove to be his disciples....Jesus appointed us to go and bear much fruit and that our fruit would remain...
If you continue to refute this you refute Jesus own words in John 15...
And let me be crystal clear to you...I do not believe that fruit is required for salvation, evidence of salvation, or will maintain salvation....
Fruit bearing glorifies the Father and in doing so proves us to be his disciples and abiding in Jesus Christ....anything you say different is refuted loudly and solidly by John 15...if you say one who abides in Jesus does not bear fruit, then he doe snot abide in Jesus Christ...these are not my words they Jesus words in red in John 15...
JOhn 15:
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
Jesus said in John 15 they will....
Jesus said that if we abide in him we will bear fruit, we don't bear fruit if we do not abide in him , he further states that the Father is glorified in this, that we bear much fruit, and doing so we prove to be his disciples....Jesus appointed us to go and bear much fruit and that our fruit would remain...
If you continue to refute this you refute Jesus own words in John 15...
And let me be crystal clear to you...I do not believe that fruit is required for salvation, evidence of salvation, or will maintain salvation....
Fruit bearing glorifies the Father and in doing so proves us to be his disciples and abiding in Jesus Christ....anything you say different is refuted loudly and solidly by John 15...if you say one who abides in Jesus does not bear fruit, then he doe snot abide in Jesus Christ...these are not my words they Jesus words in red in John 15...
JOhn 15:
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
E
SMH, Is it really that hard. Why do you feel you have to be defensive?
I want you to say Yes, A person can be saved and not produce fruit, or NO, a person who is saved will produce fruit..
So your answer is no? there is no possibility a person who is saved will not produce fruit?
Those passages speak of people who are saved, Not to people who are not saved.
Can you please answer, Yes or no. Is there a possibility a person who is saved will never produce fruit.
Thats how I understand it
The spiritual gift of great faith is not the faith required for salvation but an unusual ability to trust God for special needs.
1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Matthew 17:19-20
Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
Acts 6:5-6
And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them.
The laying on of hands was not for these men to receive the Holy Spirit, because the seven men were already “full of the Holy Spirit” Instead the apostles were conferring on these men the responsibility of carrying out the ministry. The laying on of hands was a meaningful tradition that dated back to the days of Moses and it identified people with the ministries to be performed.
The spiritual gift of great faith is not the faith required for salvation but an unusual ability to trust God for special needs.
1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Matthew 17:19-20
Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?”
So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.
Acts 6:5-6
And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them.
The laying on of hands was not for these men to receive the Holy Spirit, because the seven men were already “full of the Holy Spirit” Instead the apostles were conferring on these men the responsibility of carrying out the ministry. The laying on of hands was a meaningful tradition that dated back to the days of Moses and it identified people with the ministries to be performed.