Not By Works

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fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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The rightousness of Messiah is from obeying the law and having no sin. The "good deeds" preordained for man from God is the law of life and freedom. This is bought for us with the blood and by the resurrection of Messiah. The rightousness of the scribes was the religious practice they command over God's Torah, (instruction). Yes my righteousness exceeds the scribe's because my faith is purfected through obedience to Messiah. In other words I keep the commands and testimony of Messiah as you should. The word of YHWH is this fact. To obey...
Did Paul says to that of the Philippian Jailer, obey and etc. in order to be saved?

Thanks
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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1 John 5:11-18New International Version (NIV)

11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
______________________________________________

"....We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil cannot harm them."

"This is the message we have heard from Him and declare to you: God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all.If we claim to have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the Truth. But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin......"

"....if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

So what must we do? We must believe in the things we cannot do and that Jesus did by way of the Cross, by way of believing the reality of Redemption., and we must be true to our word, as Jesus' Word is true to us; and live according to the Spirit's command over anything shy of it, for we are not co-masters in Christ, we are co-heirs in Christ Jesus. And Jesus is the only author of Wisdom, and Salvation.

We know we have Him to back us up in so doing our new doings. We have been made innocent once more from Jesus on a Cross. But this is not the end of the story, it is the beginning, for now what do we DO with that He has equipped us to become?

Notice how the last verse quoted there doesn't say, "purify us from all Sin."....It says, "...purify us from all unrighteousness." Meaning Jesus has victory over Sin and as long as we let God rule us via Jesus Christ, we too will remain in victory over Sin via Jesus Christ. But never think our proper-alignment with God doesn't make our faith any less a verb than Jesus' life.
Hi

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Did Paul says to that of the Philippian Jailer, obey and etc. in order to be saved?

Thanks

 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,025
940
113
The rightousness of Messiah is from obeying the law and having no sin. The "good deeds" preordained for man from God is the law of life and freedom. This is bought for us with the blood and by the resurrection of Messiah. The rightousness of the scribes was the religious practice they command over God's Torah, (instruction). Yes my righteousness exceeds the scribe's because my faith is purfected through obedience to Messiah. In other words I keep the commands and testimony of Messiah as you should. The word of YHWH is this fact. To obey...
1 Thes. 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

"The "good deeds" preordained for man from God"

Prove this please...
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,025
940
113
Yes my righteousness exceeds the scribe's because my faith is purfected through obedience to Messiah. In other words I keep the commands and testimony of Messiah as you should. The word of YHWH is this fact. To obey...
You said because my faith is purfected through obedience to Messiah.

1 Thes. 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Prove your statement above please...
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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John Talmid
Who is this Messiah you are referring to? Is this the same as our Lord and Saviour Jesus, the YHWH in the Old Testament?

Thanks
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
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1 Thes. 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

"The "good deeds" preordained for man from God"

Prove this please...
An unknown New Testament writer describes the purpose of the Torah. “[The Torah] is given by inspiration of G-d, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of G-d may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” –Thessalonians. In this passage the Torah is not provided for Salvation.

As for the Gospels, “Yeshua [is come to] save his people from their sins.” –Matthew. And, “[Yeshua] is able to save completely (or, to the uttermost) those who come to G-d through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them.” --Hebrews

Christians who read Paul’s epistles often conclude that he opposes the Torah. This is not the case. He was protecting it. He was following rabbinic instruction. He diligently showed early Gentile believers that there is a difference between the Torah and gospel teaching. His primary issue is that the non-converted Gentile believers do not use the Torah as a means of Salvation.

With that in mind, consider the epistles of rabbi Paul. He lived during a time where there was considerable fear as to whether Israel could remain a nation. Greek philosophy had already begun to influence many leading Jewish teachers. Roman oppression had placed over Israel their own puppet government, and Israel was in the middle of the trade routes to Europe, Africa and Asia. New religious teaching, philosophy, and culture showed up daily. The pressure to give into external influence and pervert the Torah was at its peak. Therefore, the need to protect the purity of the Torah and Oral law was at an all-time high. This was the world rabbi Paul grew up in. It is also the reason why Paul place so much emphasis that non-converted Gentiles are NOT to observe the Torah. The Torah would be perverted and integrated into their previous pagan culture – as was happening at the time. It is important that Christians understand this.

All of this is to try and show anyone reading this that I understand who I worship and teach others to worship. When Christian believers celebrate in a Holy,(set apart) day in the name of Messiah and the name of foreign gods together they are bringing a curse on themselves to an extent just as disobedience led to the distruction then so it will again today especially as the great and terrible day of YHWH Elohim.

So what does Israel say?

Until just recently Jewish authority generally banned the teaching of the Torah and Talmud to non-Jews. The primary concern was that gentiles would pervert the wisdom of the Torah. They would either form a new religion, or integrate Jewish wisdom into their religions. We see this today in many messianic groups like Sacred Name and Hebrew Roots.
The following from the Jerusalem Post,
“The Torah states, ‘Moses has commanded us the Torah, an inheritance for the community of Jacob (Deuteronomy 33:4). Deeming this inheritance, the exclusive property of Jews, the sages prohibited gentiles from learning Torah and Jews from teaching it to them…
In this spirit, Rabbi David Tzvi Hoffman argued that one may teach non-Jews the narrative portions of the Torah which will inspire belief in the grandeur of G-d. Beyond that, rabbis Naftali Berlin and Tzvi Hirsch Chajes contended that the prohibition only applies to aspects of the Oral Law but not to the written Scriptures…
Rabbi Yehiel Weinberg, who himself taught at a pre-World War II German university. He contended that the proscription only banned gentile study intended to form competing religious ideals and rituals. It remained perfectly permissible, however, to teach even an exclusively non- Jewish audience if the goal was simply to spread Jewish wisdom.” -- Jpost.com - The Jerusalem Post newspaper's online edition

With this said. Where does it say "good works" is the law of spirit and life and freedom?

EVERYWHERE

In love of Messiah Yeshua John Talmidim

Special thanks to Ron
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
4,025
940
113
An unknown New Testament writer describes the purpose of the Torah. “[The Torah] is given by inspiration of G-d, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of G-d may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” –Thessalonians. In this passage the Torah is not provided for Salvation.

As for the Gospels, “Yeshua [is come to] save his people from their sins.” –Matthew. And, “[Yeshua] is able to save completely (or, to the uttermost) those who come to G-d through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them.” --Hebrews

Christians who read Paul’s epistles often conclude that he opposes the Torah. This is not the case. He was protecting it. He was following rabbinic instruction. He diligently showed early Gentile believers that there is a difference between the Torah and gospel teaching. His primary issue is that the non-converted Gentile believers do not use the Torah as a means of Salvation.

With that in mind, consider the epistles of rabbi Paul. He lived during a time where there was considerable fear as to whether Israel could remain a nation. Greek philosophy had already begun to influence many leading Jewish teachers. Roman oppression had placed over Israel their own puppet government, and Israel was in the middle of the trade routes to Europe, Africa and Asia. New religious teaching, philosophy, and culture showed up daily. The pressure to give into external influence and pervert the Torah was at its peak. Therefore, the need to protect the purity of the Torah and Oral law was at an all-time high. This was the world rabbi Paul grew up in. It is also the reason why Paul place so much emphasis that non-converted Gentiles are NOT to observe the Torah. The Torah would be perverted and integrated into their previous pagan culture – as was happening at the time. It is important that Christians understand this.

All of this is to try and show anyone reading this that I understand who I worship and teach others to worship. When Christian believers celebrate in a Holy,(set apart) day in the name of Messiah and the name of foreign gods together they are bringing a curse on themselves to an extent just as disobedience led to the distruction then so it will again today especially as the great and terrible day of YHWH Elohim.

So what does Israel say?

Until just recently Jewish authority generally banned the teaching of the Torah and Talmud to non-Jews. The primary concern was that gentiles would pervert the wisdom of the Torah. They would either form a new religion, or integrate Jewish wisdom into their religions. We see this today in many messianic groups like Sacred Name and Hebrew Roots.
The following from the Jerusalem Post,
“The Torah states, ‘Moses has commanded us the Torah, an inheritance for the community of Jacob (Deuteronomy 33:4). Deeming this inheritance, the exclusive property of Jews, the sages prohibited gentiles from learning Torah and Jews from teaching it to them…
In this spirit, Rabbi David Tzvi Hoffman argued that one may teach non-Jews the narrative portions of the Torah which will inspire belief in the grandeur of G-d. Beyond that, rabbis Naftali Berlin and Tzvi Hirsch Chajes contended that the prohibition only applies to aspects of the Oral Law but not to the written Scriptures…
Rabbi Yehiel Weinberg, who himself taught at a pre-World War II German university. He contended that the proscription only banned gentile study intended to form competing religious ideals and rituals. It remained perfectly permissible, however, to teach even an exclusively non- Jewish audience if the goal was simply to spread Jewish wisdom.” -- Jpost.com - The Jerusalem Post newspaper's online edition

With this said. Where does it say "good works" is the law of spirit and life and freedom?

EVERYWHERE

In love of Messiah Yeshua John Talmidim

Special thanks to Ron
Hi Sir John,

If you are a Jewish, I pray for you and I love you in the Lord. However, it seems you have not yet established your position on what my question is.

Thanks anyway for the response.

1 Thes. 5:21a "Prove all things"
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
28
Hi Sir John,

If you are a Jewish, I pray for you and I love you in the Lord. However, it seems you have not yet established your position on what my question is.

Thanks anyway for the response.

1 Thes. 5:21a "Prove all things"
What? The very first part of this response was Thessalonians and I was just showing that the concept of salvation is from Messiah as we know it. Christianity and religion that takes from another is Not the Elohim of Scripture. I spent hrs by the way looking into this for you. And you don't take the time to even reflect on the meat of my response. You took all of what 5 min. To scan through. To be clear!

If you know John's written word you should identify as a Jew if you do follow the true Messiah for one. Second I am not Jewish nor can I identify as Christian because my Lord has a Temple made without human hands. I thought you might be interested enough to try at least to hear. Instead you"pray" for me if I'm Jewish. Judged Much? Love you but that's rude.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest

Okay, I'll let that go instead of proving otherwise.
And I never said faith was a work. I said in order for believing to be faith or for faith to be faith, it requires a corresponding work, otherwise it's dead, according to James.
Would you agree that anything we do physically would be considered a work?
Would you say verbally speaking or confessing is a work?


1Jn1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we havefellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Soncleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth isnot in us.
1Jn1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Walking in the light still requires you to do physical acts, and according to the above verses, the blood of Jesus will cleanse you of all sin.
But it doesn't stop there. If we verbally CONFESS our sins, God is faithful and just to FORGIVE US OF OUR SINS, AND TO CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.
So we are not forgiven UNTIL we actually verbally confess our sins, which is a work.
That should be proof enough that a work in faith is required for one's forgiveness.
But I have more if you would like me to continue.
Let's take a look at how to get saved, which requires one's sins to be forgiven.


Rom10:5
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That theman which doeth those things shall live by them.

Rom10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Saynot in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bringChrist down fromabove:)
Rom10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christagain from the dead.)
Rom10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, evenin thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which wepreach;
Rom10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shaltbelieve in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thoushalt be saved.
Rom10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with themouth confession is made unto salvation.

Take note, that salvation is NOT made UNTIL one CONFESSES WITH THEIR MOUTH, the Lord Jesus.
Faith require one to believe in their heart first, and then they MUST CONFESS WITH THEIR MOUTH BEFORE they can be saved. That is what is written without taking it out of context.
We believe unto righteousness and when we confess what we believe, then it is done.
Faith always requires and act that corresponds to what you believe in your heart.
If you believe and don't act on that believe, nothing will happen. Which means, no salvation.
If you don't believe but still act it out, again, nothing will happen. which means, still no salvation.


2Co4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, Ibelieved, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and thereforespeak;

I have given you two sets of scripture verses that proves a work must be done for one's sins to be forgiven. The testimony of two or more witnesses makes what I said earlier, true.
I named more than one work or act one can do that does indeed cause their sins to be forgiven.
So you can't not name one work which will remove one sin Thanks That speaks volumes.

Confessing is not a work let's get serious here.. I can not boast of self because I confessed Jesus.. That's boasting I Jesus..

As for physical acts which ne can do and boast of. They can not save us.. of course y have not shownone physical act which will remove the pentaly of one sin, So by your silence you must agree
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
The rightousness of Messiah is from obeying the law and having no sin. The "good deeds" preordained for man from God is the law of life and freedom. This is bought for us with the blood and by the resurrection of Messiah. The rightousness of the scribes was the religious practice they command over God's Torah, (instruction). Yes my righteousness exceeds the scribe's because my faith is purfected through obedience to Messiah. In other words I keep the commands and testimony of Messiah as you should. The word of YHWH is this fact. To obey...
So your perfect?

You better study the law again. Better yet. read John, who claims you deceive yourself if you think you have (present tense) No sin
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
28
O man what a great and terrible day of YHWH Elohim we have all been storing judgments for ourselves. I have never said I am without sin. If so please don't conceal it.
 
Mar 7, 2016
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So you can't not name one work which will remove one sin Thanks That speaks volumes.

Confessing is not a work let's get serious here.. I can not boast of self because I confessed Jesus.. That's boasting I Jesus..

As for physical acts which ne can do and boast of. They can not save us.. of course y have not shownone physical act which will remove the pentaly of one sin, So by your silence you must agree
One work would be to pray for Forgiveness
 
Mar 7, 2016
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Sooooooooooooooooooo

How about this scripture...
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [SUP]9 [/SUP]to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [SUP]10 [/SUP]to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[SUP][a][/SUP] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.



Ive bolded out the most important part.... Now why would the spirit give the gift of faith to one and not the other..

Now is it because one gift leads to another or is it the full measure of faith :)
 
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It's not a lie. I'm sorry if you don't want to accept the truth. Which is, that the daily bread we ask for each day, is stuff like the strength to get through the day, for God to provide what we need. NOT to ask for daily salvation. Salvation is NOT given daily, it is a one-time gift. A ONE time gift. :)
i like the sound of that daily salvation me like cookies too :)
 
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Generalized statements bro....and I am not attacking you per se....but rather any and all doctrines and dogmas that are contrary to the word........works and or immersion embellished salvation are two such dogmas.....
oh your just so money supermarket :rolleyes:
 
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can a sinful man pay for the debt of eternal death, with a mortal body?
can we pay for one sins penalty?

No we can't because we are death walking by grace. .
yes he can give his body to the church :)
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
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Sooooooooooooooooooo

How about this scripture...
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [SUP]9 [/SUP]to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [SUP]10 [/SUP]to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[SUP][a][/SUP] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]11 [/SUP]All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.



Ive bolded out the most important part.... Now why would the spirit give the gift of faith to one and not the other..

Now is it because one gift leads to another or is it the full measure of faith :)
why did God give the gift of faith to George Mueller ad Hudson Taylor and not to Jimbo? Because they would use it rightly.
 
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as the saying goes ashes to ashes and dust to dust..


But remember that healing comes from baptism of fire :) tho i walk through the valley of death i know that mercy and grace follow me..