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M
Bro, you're double-talking at this point - LOL. You're saying it's OK to get input...but that to ask for input is to have a "crutch". I have asked you to show me some input from knowledgeable sources. You say it is OK to do so...but NOT OK to do so -- LOL. You say it is OK to factor in other people's opinions...but then I should NOT factor in others' opinions...that I should rely only on my opinion. Good grief, man. Is it YOUR opinion that I should rely only on MY opinion?
Yes, I'd like to see some "input" from knowledgeable people...who are able to break it down a little bit for me...give some background history...and so on. You can keep making your silly condescending remarks about (for example) your 'novel' idea that I attempt my own personal Bible study (thanks, by the way - I'll look into that)...and I am still going to be interested in the biblical concept...of getting input from knowledgeable people.
And when I want to study the Bible, I try always to include input from potentially knowledgeable people.
Ah. More of that double-talking. - You say "much of the time". You can't quite close the door on the possibility some have it right...but you're still trying to close the door. I already told you, I "roll up my sleeves" and do the hard work of tracking down good teachers. It's like finding gold. You're right - "much of the time" they're 'clunkers. Doesn't stop me from the biblical process of trying to track them down...in contradiction to your advisory. I'll take the Bible's advice to track down wise men, over your "advice" any time! Sorry.
Yes, I'd like to see some "input" from knowledgeable people...who are able to break it down a little bit for me...give some background history...and so on. You can keep making your silly condescending remarks about (for example) your 'novel' idea that I attempt my own personal Bible study (thanks, by the way - I'll look into that)...and I am still going to be interested in the biblical concept...of getting input from knowledgeable people.
And when I want to study the Bible, I try always to include input from potentially knowledgeable people.
Ah. More of that double-talking. - You say "much of the time". You can't quite close the door on the possibility some have it right...but you're still trying to close the door. I already told you, I "roll up my sleeves" and do the hard work of tracking down good teachers. It's like finding gold. You're right - "much of the time" they're 'clunkers. Doesn't stop me from the biblical process of trying to track them down...in contradiction to your advisory. I'll take the Bible's advice to track down wise men, over your "advice" any time! Sorry.
G
If there is no other 'gift' that I have ever received from God -- I have most certainly received this one ----- "attention to detail"...
I am very detail-oriented.
And, I am telling you with all manner of confidence that most people "miss" a lot of what is in the Bible because they do not pay close enough attention to the 'detail' written in the verses of scripture -- especially, with regard to the 'grammar of the language'. ( according to whatever language it is written in )
Every 'colon' and 'semicolon' is important.
The way verses are worded is important.
You have to understand the 'grammar of the language' properly, or you will be susceptible to error.
I am very detail-oriented.
And, I am telling you with all manner of confidence that most people "miss" a lot of what is in the Bible because they do not pay close enough attention to the 'detail' written in the verses of scripture -- especially, with regard to the 'grammar of the language'. ( according to whatever language it is written in )
Every 'colon' and 'semicolon' is important.
The way verses are worded is important.
You have to understand the 'grammar of the language' properly, or you will be susceptible to error.
M
Hey buddy, YOU'RE still reading the thread...and so is "Ahwatukee"...LOL!
But...not sure what to make of your comment. You're probably one of these 'hit-and-run' guys anyway...and who will disappear into the mists once you see my response.
As a matter of fact, I did explain the rapture in "2 minutes"...so it's a bit of a cheap shot to say it's taken "2 pages and 2 weeks". I'll explain it to you again and this time in 20 seconds:
Jesus told Peter, James and John to expect the Abomination of Desolation. Those three went out from that Olivet Discourse...believing Jesus' words. And so, either they were believing erroneously...were believing false doctrine...OR they were believing truth. Since Jesus cannot teach false doctrine, PreTrib is therefore an absurdity...and any believer who doesn't believe as Peter, James and John believed...therefore believes wrongly...believes false doctrine.
But...not sure what to make of your comment. You're probably one of these 'hit-and-run' guys anyway...and who will disappear into the mists once you see my response.
As a matter of fact, I did explain the rapture in "2 minutes"...so it's a bit of a cheap shot to say it's taken "2 pages and 2 weeks". I'll explain it to you again and this time in 20 seconds:
Jesus told Peter, James and John to expect the Abomination of Desolation. Those three went out from that Olivet Discourse...believing Jesus' words. And so, either they were believing erroneously...were believing false doctrine...OR they were believing truth. Since Jesus cannot teach false doctrine, PreTrib is therefore an absurdity...and any believer who doesn't believe as Peter, James and John believed...therefore believes wrongly...believes false doctrine.
M
That's actually dishonesty on your part, at this point. I very carefully delineated where and how you engaged in 'double-talk'.
You had stumbled (in my view) into an unbiblical inconsistency in your philosophy of Bible study which you apparently weren't quite aware you had (identical to Ahwatukee's, by the way)...and then began furiously waffling when I explained my disagreement.
I actually consider this a pretty important sidebar. I'm fairly convinced here...especially now, with these comments about "personal Bible study"...that you are someone who has gone too far down the "lone wolf" road...and that you have thus stumbled into some fairly 'unconventional' beliefs (to put it politely) when what you have needed all along (as we ALL do) is a better balance...which includes more input from other knowledgeable believers...whether "credentialed" or not. I mean...you tell me.
Who in the world are you arguing with? Who had proposed such a thing? I very carefully clarified my limited support for the concept of credentials...with my remarks about my dentist.
And your above quote is not AT ALL what you originally stipulated a couple of posts ago. It's pretty dubious to me that you switcheroo from a pointed demand that I rely solely on my "own personal Bible study" to "no, no - I only meant to say I'm against 'people thinking every idea must be backed by credentials or it is no good at all'"...and then, with wagging finger, proceed to lecture me about being argumentative. Come on.
I think you're the one being argumentative and I'm the one trying to "discuss"- lol.
And to continue the discussion from where you broke it off...yes, I'm looking for some corroboration from knowledgeable people on the subject. You have no other teachers or writers you can point me to, whom you have found to be somewhat reliable?
Let's bring knowledgeable people into the discussion...who don't have an "agenda", if we can find them. There aren't Bible historians or theologians who have the communication and writing skills to lay out the information...about which decree and when...about which king ruled and in what year...and how many "Weeks" here or how many "Weeks" there?
You had stumbled (in my view) into an unbiblical inconsistency in your philosophy of Bible study which you apparently weren't quite aware you had (identical to Ahwatukee's, by the way)...and then began furiously waffling when I explained my disagreement.
I actually consider this a pretty important sidebar. I'm fairly convinced here...especially now, with these comments about "personal Bible study"...that you are someone who has gone too far down the "lone wolf" road...and that you have thus stumbled into some fairly 'unconventional' beliefs (to put it politely) when what you have needed all along (as we ALL do) is a better balance...which includes more input from other knowledgeable believers...whether "credentialed" or not. I mean...you tell me.
Who in the world are you arguing with? Who had proposed such a thing? I very carefully clarified my limited support for the concept of credentials...with my remarks about my dentist.
And your above quote is not AT ALL what you originally stipulated a couple of posts ago. It's pretty dubious to me that you switcheroo from a pointed demand that I rely solely on my "own personal Bible study" to "no, no - I only meant to say I'm against 'people thinking every idea must be backed by credentials or it is no good at all'"...and then, with wagging finger, proceed to lecture me about being argumentative. Come on.
I think you're the one being argumentative and I'm the one trying to "discuss"- lol.
And to continue the discussion from where you broke it off...yes, I'm looking for some corroboration from knowledgeable people on the subject. You have no other teachers or writers you can point me to, whom you have found to be somewhat reliable?
Let's bring knowledgeable people into the discussion...who don't have an "agenda", if we can find them. There aren't Bible historians or theologians who have the communication and writing skills to lay out the information...about which decree and when...about which king ruled and in what year...and how many "Weeks" here or how many "Weeks" there?
M
Well again...you're conceding you believe Jesus taught false doctrine to Peter, James and John.
You are arguing that what Jesus taught them could NOT be true for them...because if these events had happened within their life span (and Jesus had explicitly allowed for that possibility) they would NOT have encountered the Abomination of Desolation. So PreTrib is forced to argue.
But since Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse believing what Jesus had told them (which they obviously did - LOL!)...then, not only would they believe Jesus...they would also pass along these teachings.
But then they would be teaching false doctrine, according to PreTrib.
And therefore would Jesus be guilty of putting false doctrine into their hands...according to PreTrib.
Therefore, once again, is PreTrib resoundingly invalidated.
You are arguing that what Jesus taught them could NOT be true for them...because if these events had happened within their life span (and Jesus had explicitly allowed for that possibility) they would NOT have encountered the Abomination of Desolation. So PreTrib is forced to argue.
But since Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse believing what Jesus had told them (which they obviously did - LOL!)...then, not only would they believe Jesus...they would also pass along these teachings.
But then they would be teaching false doctrine, according to PreTrib.
And therefore would Jesus be guilty of putting false doctrine into their hands...according to PreTrib.
Therefore, once again, is PreTrib resoundingly invalidated.
M
Gary, my man:
Make. An. Argument.
Present some actual reasoning. Present some interesting evidence. We're standing by. And don't keep asking for my blessing. Why do you keep doing that? Do you think I wait for someone's blessing before I post my thoughts? No way.
You keep making noises as though you're ready to bail out on the conversation. I'm simply saying the best way to cool my jets...is to make arguments that I can't answer. So far, you haven't made ANY arguments...that I can tell, anyway.
Make. An. Argument.
Present some actual reasoning. Present some interesting evidence. We're standing by. And don't keep asking for my blessing. Why do you keep doing that? Do you think I wait for someone's blessing before I post my thoughts? No way.
You keep making noises as though you're ready to bail out on the conversation. I'm simply saying the best way to cool my jets...is to make arguments that I can't answer. So far, you haven't made ANY arguments...that I can tell, anyway.
Glorious Heavenly Father, I am troubled by the confusion and error regarding the end times events that this and other threads display. Father, you know my heart and my thinking on the subject. I sincerely pray that you will make your truth clear to both sides of this argument. I pray the Holy Spirit will lead those in error (including myself, where appropriate) to humility and truth in this matter.
Father, I cannot convince anyone of anything. All I can do is share my experience and perspective.
Father, I have been called serious names because I am trying to share what I believe you led me to understand. Father, where I am wrong, please correct me. Where I am "right" please encourage me.
Father, I don't understand why there is such disagreement on the pre-trib vs post-trib rapture. It seems to me that both sides should desire to come to an agreement on the truth of the matter. Father, at least one side is wrong in their thinking about the subject. I pray for your grace and mercy to reach into both sides and guide us into a knowledge of your truth on the subject.
Father, please grant us humility and a passion for the truth that overrides our deception and indoctrination. Grant us a passion for understanding the truth of the Bible and of your will for the endtimes.
I pray your truth will be made clear in this subject and that those who are mistaken or indoctrinated in deception will humbly submit to your truth in this matter.
Father, please reach out to those who are wrong (including myself where appropriate) and grant them (us) wisdom, humility, and a passion for the truth in everything related to the Bible.
I ask these things in the name of your one and only human born Son, Messiah Jesus.
Father, I cannot convince anyone of anything. All I can do is share my experience and perspective.
Father, I have been called serious names because I am trying to share what I believe you led me to understand. Father, where I am wrong, please correct me. Where I am "right" please encourage me.
Father, I don't understand why there is such disagreement on the pre-trib vs post-trib rapture. It seems to me that both sides should desire to come to an agreement on the truth of the matter. Father, at least one side is wrong in their thinking about the subject. I pray for your grace and mercy to reach into both sides and guide us into a knowledge of your truth on the subject.
Father, please grant us humility and a passion for the truth that overrides our deception and indoctrination. Grant us a passion for understanding the truth of the Bible and of your will for the endtimes.
I pray your truth will be made clear in this subject and that those who are mistaken or indoctrinated in deception will humbly submit to your truth in this matter.
Father, please reach out to those who are wrong (including myself where appropriate) and grant them (us) wisdom, humility, and a passion for the truth in everything related to the Bible.
I ask these things in the name of your one and only human born Son, Messiah Jesus.
M
Thanks for the clarification. You say you're not big on rapture issues. Hope you've been watching the news. History is culminating. Much talk or war. Much saber-rattling. The great political and military powers of the world are increasingly jockeying for dominance. And when it all breaks loose, there will be no miraculous PreTrib rapture to whisk away you and your loved ones. Spiritual prep is of the essence...if you look closely at the Parable of the Ten Virgins. Just sayin'.
M
Sorry if the debates are upsetting to you. Maybe we should tone it down just a notch. Personally, I have no particular problem with vigorous debate. But yes, I do become annoyed here and there...as was the case with Gary's lecturing about going 'solo' on Bible study and then doing a switcheroo.
My thinking is...if you're caught in a fumble...just 'fess up and move on. But you're right (in your prayer) - seldom will folks do such. I'm not really waiting for any of the participants to "convert". It's a rarity for such to happen. But what I DO hope for is...the handful of folks who look in on these discussions to see (what I think is) the compelling evidence for a post-"Great Tribulation" gathering/rapture.
As a matter of fact, per your above prayer, I AM one those folks who gritted his teeth and, at age 34 and after a lifetime as a PreTribber, decided I had been wrong and needed to make some corrections. So, it does happen. Prayers are answered.
I believe you are a "post-tribber" of some variety, no? How did you come to 'see the light'? If you don't mind me asking. Is there a previous post of yours, you can link me to?
My thinking is...if you're caught in a fumble...just 'fess up and move on. But you're right (in your prayer) - seldom will folks do such. I'm not really waiting for any of the participants to "convert". It's a rarity for such to happen. But what I DO hope for is...the handful of folks who look in on these discussions to see (what I think is) the compelling evidence for a post-"Great Tribulation" gathering/rapture.
As a matter of fact, per your above prayer, I AM one those folks who gritted his teeth and, at age 34 and after a lifetime as a PreTribber, decided I had been wrong and needed to make some corrections. So, it does happen. Prayers are answered.
I believe you are a "post-tribber" of some variety, no? How did you come to 'see the light'? If you don't mind me asking. Is there a previous post of yours, you can link me to?
M
It's an interesting question but it has no impact on the debate between PreTrib and Post-"Great Trib". Both sides would be equally interested in the exact meaning.
There are a number of potential answers, but none of them would seem to impact on the debate either way, as far as I can tell.
I could get into a discussion, but for now I'm hoping to keep my wayward thread at least halfway on track! Start a thread, maybe.
There are a number of potential answers, but none of them would seem to impact on the debate either way, as far as I can tell.
I could get into a discussion, but for now I'm hoping to keep my wayward thread at least halfway on track! Start a thread, maybe.
I started out as a strong pretribber. I wanted to clarify my position on the pre-trib rapture so I studied the Bible very intensively for several months collating every end times passage from the Old and New Testaments. I found that there were no verses that justified a pre-trib position.
Then I started wondering how historical and orthodox the pre-trib position was. After a couple of years of intensive and original research I proved that the pre-trib idea was invented at the Albury Prophesy Conferences held near London in the late 1820s. From there it migrated to the Powerscourt Prophesy Conferences held in the early 1830s. John Darby picked it up there and spent nearly 50 years preaching it in England, the US and Canada. Scofield copied Darby's notes and included it in his reference Bible.
Then I studied Dispensationalism for a while and discovered major problems with that theology, not the least of which is their separating of the church from the Jews, and their declaration of several different gospels. In my opinion, preaching different gospels is a serious concern. It is a result of their separating the Jews from the church. They claim the Jews will be saved in a different way from the church. I consider this to be an ungodly teaching and in direct opposition to the Bible.
In their own writings, dispensationalists state that it is necessary to separate the Jews from the church in order to justify a pre-trib rapture. I have proof, however, that John Darby created this distinction in order to justify the pre-trib rapture idea. In short, all of Dispensationalism was created to support the pre-trib rapture.
I also have documentation from Robert Baxter who prophesied the pre-trib rapture in 1832, but later repented and declared his prophesying to have been demonically inspired. This raises serious questions in my mind about the validity of the pre-trib rapture.
So, yes, I was once a pre-tribber, but since giving up the deceptive dispensational indoctrination, the Bible has come to be a lot more simple and clear to me.
Then I started wondering how historical and orthodox the pre-trib position was. After a couple of years of intensive and original research I proved that the pre-trib idea was invented at the Albury Prophesy Conferences held near London in the late 1820s. From there it migrated to the Powerscourt Prophesy Conferences held in the early 1830s. John Darby picked it up there and spent nearly 50 years preaching it in England, the US and Canada. Scofield copied Darby's notes and included it in his reference Bible.
Then I studied Dispensationalism for a while and discovered major problems with that theology, not the least of which is their separating of the church from the Jews, and their declaration of several different gospels. In my opinion, preaching different gospels is a serious concern. It is a result of their separating the Jews from the church. They claim the Jews will be saved in a different way from the church. I consider this to be an ungodly teaching and in direct opposition to the Bible.
In their own writings, dispensationalists state that it is necessary to separate the Jews from the church in order to justify a pre-trib rapture. I have proof, however, that John Darby created this distinction in order to justify the pre-trib rapture idea. In short, all of Dispensationalism was created to support the pre-trib rapture.
I also have documentation from Robert Baxter who prophesied the pre-trib rapture in 1832, but later repented and declared his prophesying to have been demonically inspired. This raises serious questions in my mind about the validity of the pre-trib rapture.
So, yes, I was once a pre-tribber, but since giving up the deceptive dispensational indoctrination, the Bible has come to be a lot more simple and clear to me.
The 'visitation' that Jesus is talking about is His First Coming. The rest of verses 43-44 is talking about 70 A.D.
So you don't think it is a fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9 or Daniel 9:25?
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, lowly and riding on a donkey, a colt, the foal of a donkey.”
“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublesome times.”
Luke 19:41-44 “Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. 43 For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, 44 and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.”
This can not be talking about His first coming, He says "If you had known, even you, especially in this day, the things for your peace!
That day is what Jesus is talking about, that's why 70 A.D. happened, because they rejected their Messiah, even though Daniel had prophecies it to the day, He would fulfill Zachariah 9:9, which in turn fulfilled Daniel 9:25 to the day. As I mentioned these 7 weeks and 62 weeks, is the amount of time to His visitation or Zechariah 9:9 be fulfilled. Look at how 9:26 starts in Daniel, "and after" the triumphal entry to the day, and after that Messiah is cut off. "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;". Verse 25 starts, “Know therefore and understand", it's telling the read that it is important, pay attention, it's giving the exact day or time frame the coming of Messiah the Prince, in peace, that's why He rode a donkey colt, it's a sign of peace from a King, if it's not peace but a conquering King his rides in on a warhorse. Where verse 26 does not even include the 7 weeks, it just says, "and after 62 weeks Messiah will be cut off".
The days given, "from the going forth of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince." The time frame is given after the guidelines have been given, the day the command goes forth until the day of Messiah the Prince or the day of His visitation. Sacrifices being cut off in the middle of the week, is not talking about Christ's sacrifice, it's placing it on the price to coming after Jesus' visitation and Him being cut off. Because that prince's people will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
It is to be noted that 9:24 is a summery of what's going to be said in verses 25 and 26-27, the reason I grouped them like this is because that's the way they are grouped in the NKJV, the NIV has 24 separate from 25-27. So it seems that they are separated by the description of weeks or the heading, 24, 70 weeks, 25, 7 weeks and 62 weeks and 26-27 after 62 weeks. The descriptions are separated by the headings or giving of weeks.
So after Messiah the Prince's entry into Jerusalem, the time of His visitation, are 69 weeks, from the day of the decree to the day of His peaceful enter to Jerusalem. That's why He wept, because they did not listen to what the prophet said, "Know therefore and understand". If you look at it without the italic words, it would read. "Until Messiah the Prince, seven weeks and sixty-two weeks", which would make the idea that it's talking about one beginning day to one ending day.
I'm not saying I'm right, you're wrong, it just doesn't seem that He's talking about His first coming as He is about that particular day.
Matt why do you keep saying that, like it's a, be all end all statement.
By who's standard would Jesus be teaching false doctrine, whatever Jesus taught was true doctrine, it may not line up with what someone believes, but that does not make it false.
What did Peter and Jude say I Peter 3:15-16 “But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.”
Jude 1:3-4 "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."
II Timothy 2:23-26 "Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."
They are not talking about eschatology, they are talking about the hope that we have, the receiving of our glorified bodies. Jude is talking about salvation is by grace and unbelieving men are trying to say if it's grace live however you want to live. We need to defend the faith of salvation by grace and grace alone.
The part that bums me out are all those, that are saying pre-trib is evil, from the devil, are not following the instructions of Peter "with gentleness and respect," or Paul "must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,25 correcting his opponents with gentleness."
It seems all the per-trib guys follow and have these attributes, which by these guidelines makes me think that they are more than likely right, because they are the ones that seem to be, "having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame."
The name calling starts with the ones that say, there is no rapture, no GT, no pre-trib, it stands to reason those those that do believe those things, have the Spirit guiding them with meekness and respect. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still haven't seen the answer to my question about, Matthew 24:30 on "the sign of the coming of the Son of Man in the sky" with the following verses seem to be speaking of a rapture with one taken, one left. The Son of Man's return is in Matthew 25:31. So what is the "sign of His coming in the sky" mean? If someone did answer it can they please post the link, because that is a verse that seems to line up with "the Lord will meet us in the air" And it is one of the questions the disciples ask. When will these things be (Temple), what is the sign of you coming and the end of the age? So there's a sign and His coming at the end of the age, what's the sign in the sky of His coming? Thanks.
By who's standard would Jesus be teaching false doctrine, whatever Jesus taught was true doctrine, it may not line up with what someone believes, but that does not make it false.
What did Peter and Jude say I Peter 3:15-16 “But in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,16 having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.”
Jude 1:3-4 "Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ."
II Timothy 2:23-26 "Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels.24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will."
They are not talking about eschatology, they are talking about the hope that we have, the receiving of our glorified bodies. Jude is talking about salvation is by grace and unbelieving men are trying to say if it's grace live however you want to live. We need to defend the faith of salvation by grace and grace alone.
The part that bums me out are all those, that are saying pre-trib is evil, from the devil, are not following the instructions of Peter "with gentleness and respect," or Paul "must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,25 correcting his opponents with gentleness."
It seems all the per-trib guys follow and have these attributes, which by these guidelines makes me think that they are more than likely right, because they are the ones that seem to be, "having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame."
The name calling starts with the ones that say, there is no rapture, no GT, no pre-trib, it stands to reason those those that do believe those things, have the Spirit guiding them with meekness and respect. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still haven't seen the answer to my question about, Matthew 24:30 on "the sign of the coming of the Son of Man in the sky" with the following verses seem to be speaking of a rapture with one taken, one left. The Son of Man's return is in Matthew 25:31. So what is the "sign of His coming in the sky" mean? If someone did answer it can they please post the link, because that is a verse that seems to line up with "the Lord will meet us in the air" And it is one of the questions the disciples ask. When will these things be (Temple), what is the sign of you coming and the end of the age? So there's a sign and His coming at the end of the age, what's the sign in the sky of His coming? Thanks.