The Rapture explained in two minutes

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Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
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Well said. The "He" in the verse would have to refer back to the last person mentioned, which is "the ruler" of Daniel 9:26. And I would also add that, Jesus cannot be the "He" referred to in Daniel 9:27 because it would also mean that Jesus would be the "He" who sets up the abomination in the holy place, which is blasphemy, a reeking stench that goes up before God.




What is the question?
I'm wanting to know if the sign of the Son of Man and the end of the age or His coming, are they the same. Because if you look at 24:30 is structured, makes my think that between the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then mourning on the earth, "and they" will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Is there a separation of time between the sign in heaven and His coming in the clouds with power and great glory. Because the way I'm reading it, His coming in the clouds is at the end of the age, where He judges the nation. Because it doesn't say the sign of the coming of the Son of Mn, it just says, "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man," so it doesn't say that anyone will even see Him at this sign in heaven.

What I wondering is if there is time between these two different acts, wouldn't that be leaving time for the GT and the gathering together, because then after the lesson of the fig tree. he talks about people just living live and doing whatever and two are working and one is taken and one is left. Than after a few parables, He describes the end of the age, with Him coming in glory to judge the nation.

Plus those would be answering the disciples questions, when will these things be (Temple), the sign of your coming and the end of the age. Which He answers them all.

Is the sign and His coming two different things, with a time gap?
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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some believe they know the identity of the abomination of desolation. Some teach that this prophecy was fulfilled when Antiochus C interrupted the temple sacrifices between 168 and 165 B.C. The abomination they point to is the pig Antiochus had offered on the altar in the temple complex. Others believe the abomination of desolation refers to a future time when an atheistic anti-christ will overthrow the temple in Jerusalem and use it as his throne. Then there are those who believe the abomination of desolation is the Roman standards which were worshiped in Jerusalem in 70 A.D. at the time of its destruction by Titus.



While you quite nicely recounted the history behind the AoD, I think you have the wrong definition and the wrong scenario as to what happen during this 167BC event.

The biblical uses of "Abomination" = [ a foul thing, a detestable thing, of idols and things pertaining to idolatry]

The biblical uses of "of Desolate" = [a making desolate, desolation]

you stated Antiochus sacrificed a pig on the temple . This is very good!!! Yes he did but this was NOT the AoD. Epiphanes decided to (according to Josephus) place an idol =onto (in) the Holy of Holes. Rem, The High priest was the one who could enter the Holy of Holies BUT even he could only do this once per year.

Sooooooo..Josephus tells us, Antiochus Epiphanes placed a idol of Zeus in the Holy of Hollies. The "Abomination of Desolation"

The AoD did not take place in 79 AD either. You stated that the "Roman standards" happened after the temple had burnt. The soldiers gathered on the "East" gate to worship their GODs.. The people (preterists, replacement theology, etc.) who are saying this are wishing and hoping it were true because they have no place to go from here. Their Theology is wrong and hey know it.

The Bible only speaks of two AoDs.. We know when one happened and we are waiting for the other to happen as it is told in the middle of Daniel's 70th week.


It is easy to sit on the fence but like Humpty Dumpty it is easy to fall off usually on the wrong side as well.

Have a good Day

Blade
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
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I'm wanting to know if the sign of the Son of Man and the end of the age or His coming, are they the same. Because if you look at 24:30 is structured, makes my think that between the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then mourning on the earth, "and they" will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Is there a separation of time between the sign in heaven and His coming in the clouds with power and great glory. Because the way I'm reading it, His coming in the clouds is at the end of the age, where He judges the nation. Because it doesn't say the sign of the coming of the Son of Mn, it just says, "Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man," so it doesn't say that anyone will even see Him at this sign in heaven.

What I wondering is if there is time between these two different acts, wouldn't that be leaving time for the GT and the gathering together, because then after the lesson of the fig tree. he talks about people just living live and doing whatever and two are working and one is taken and one is left. Than after a few parables, He describes the end of the age, with Him coming in glory to judge the nation.

Plus those would be answering the disciples questions, when will these things be (Temple), the sign of your coming and the end of the age. Which He answers them all.

Is the sign and His coming two different things, with a time gap?
Bingo,,,above...One taken, one left behind......The Rapture pure and simple whether you want to believe it or not. Only the TRUE believers in Jesus Christ will be taken and all the others, yes even those who worship the other Gospel, will be left behind.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
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Bingo,,,above...One taken, one left behind......The Rapture pure and simple whether you want to believe it or not. Only the TRUE believers in Jesus Christ will be taken and all the others, yes even those who worship the other Gospel, will be left behind.
I'm leaning that way, it seems very simple. Here's a question I had for those here that say the rapture is false doctrine. I asked about the stories of Noah and Lot, which Jesus spoke about in Luke 17, not the Olivet Discourse, but it is about the coming kingdom. Because one is rescued that other is preserved. Someone answered both. They were right, Noah represents the Jews and Lot the Church, one was taken out by the hand and the other build an Ark which preserved him and his family through the judgement.

Interesting, plus I found some studies I did some years back and it's all coming to me. I pulled out the books I used and they are very informational, just a side note, not of them are written by a dispensationalist incase anyone is wondering. Ones a Princeton Seminary graduate, the other was a professor at Covenant Theological Seminary and the other is an editor of the 4th edition of the Greek New Testament. Interesting how two of them had the GT and rapture in the Olivet Discourse, the other is compiled commentary from many different eschatological view points. So my eschatology is a little of this and a little of that.

I believe some of the Olivet Discourse is fulfilled and some yet to be. I'm also seeing a difference between the sign of the Son of Man in heaven and the end of the age or His second coming as different. It's looking like the sign, is the rapture.

But, I'm still waiting to hear what those that don't beieve it's in the Discourse to share their input
 
G

GaryA

Guest
Your assumption was that they brought on the Tribulations which is just not true.
I make no such assumption.

The GT is over before / as the Two Witnesses "come onto the scene"...

It is closer to the truth to say that the Two Witnesses end the GT.

:)
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
I make no such assumption.

The GT is over before / as the Two Witnesses "come onto the scene"...

It is closer to the truth to say that the Two Witnesses end the GT.

:)
Wrong again GaryA...The two witnesses are killed by the antichrist (not personally but ordered). This time period is the beginning of the GT or the last 3 1/2 years of Daniels 70th week.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
I make no such assumption.

The GT is over before / as the Two Witnesses "come onto the scene"...

It is closer to the truth to say that the Two Witnesses end the GT.

:)
Good evening GaryA,

It is not possible for the two witnesses to end the great tribulation and here is why. Based on Daniel 9:27, the time of God's wrath is seven years in length, which is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods. The setting of the abomination marks the middle of the seven years. Therefore, since the two witnesses time of prophesy is 1260 days, which is 3 1/2 years, there is only two choices:

1). The two witnesses prophesy from the beginning of the seven years to the middle of the seven

2). Their time of prophesy is from the middle of the seven years to the end.

My conclusion is that their time of prophesy is from the beginning of the seven years to the middle, where at which time they will be killed by the beast that comes up out of the Abyss.

The reasoning for this is that, Rev.12:6, 14 states that the woman/Israel, flees out into the desert to that place prepared for her by God, where she will be out of the dragons reach. This means that from the middle of the seven years when that abomination is set up, Israel will flee out into the desert making Jerusalem desolate.

Therefore, if the time of prophesy for the two witnesses was from the middle of the seven years to the end when Christ returns to end the age, Israel would not be in Jerusalem for them to prophesy to.

However, if their time of prophesy is from the beginning of the seven years to the middle, then Israel will be in Jerusalem for the two witnesses to prophesy to.

The other reason for their time of prophesy to not be the second 3 1/2 year period, is because the beast will come up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet, which is just prior to the middle of the seven years, where at which time he will kill the two witnesses. However, if the time of the prophesy for the two witnesses were from the middle of the seven years to the end, that would mean that after the beast came up out of the Abyss, he would have to wait for over 3 1/2 before he could kill the two witnesses and that because the scripture states that no one will be able to harm them until the time of their prophesy is over.

So, my vote for their time of prophesy, is from the beginning of the seven years up to the middle of the seven.

By the way, there is no scripture that states that the two witnesses end the great tribulation. But scripture does state that it is Christ who brings the age to its end by returning to the earth.
 
Nov 19, 2016
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The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period,because God is allowing the world to have their way,and rebel against Him,so He will not go against them until the 7 years period is over.

During the first three and one half years the world can still repent of their sins,and salvation is still offered to them,and under that condition God's wrath will not be poured out on the world yet,for it does not meet the requirement that they rebelled against God for Him to go against them,for God is still allowing the world to be saved at that point.

The world will operate by the ten horn kingdom,the world split in to ten sections,with a leader in each section,and a unified religious system,whose standard format is of the new age movement,which the man of sin works during the first three and one half years promoting the new age movement,and preparing things for the coming beast kingdom,which his first step is peace in the Middle East,and then the 7 years period will go from there.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

This happens during the first three and one half years,and is the religion of Islam against the world,as the world takes them down,for that is the plan of the man of sin,to go against Islam,Christianity,and Israel,one at a time.

That war is so terrible that the world lost hope,and the ten horn kingdom failed at trying to establish peace on earth,and they turn to the man of sin for the solution of what to do,which they know he believes in the harnessing of nature for power.

The 6 trumpets are 6 disasters that occur on earth that the world knows about,warnings to the world to turn to God,but after the 6th trumpet they will not repent of their sins,and turn to God,but keep trying to solve their problems on earth,so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The beast,the man of sin,will convince the world that he harnessed the power of nature,and obtained power,and they believe he can establish his kingdom and no foe can stop him,and when the world takes the mark of the beast,then repentance,and salvation,is no longer available to them,but God allows the beast to make war against the saints,and prevail against them.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

The beast shall destroy the holy and mighty people.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The saints shall be given in to the beast's hands for three and one half years.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

When the beast shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,then the resurrection shall occur,which the saints that are left after the persecution will be gathered unto Christ.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The beast has power to rule for the last three and one half years,which God is allowing the beast to rule,and have his way,so the wrath of God is not poured upon the world,for God is allowing the beast to rule,and have his way.

At the end of the three and one half years,the gathering of the saints unto Christ shall happen,and then the wrath of God is poured upon the world,leading up to the battle of Armageddon,which is when they attack Israel.

Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

When they attack Israel then God's fury shall come up in His face,and He will defeat the world,and save Israel.

Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
Eze 39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

When God defeats the world,and saves Israel,the millennial reign of Christ will begin,and the kingdom restored to the Jews,and Jesus and the saints will rule over one sixth of the heathen that fought against Israel.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period,for repentance,and salvation,is available for the first three and one half years,and God allows the beast to rule,and have his way in the world,for the last three and one half years,so God will not go against them world until the 7 years period is over.

God will allow them to go against Israel,and then He will defeat the world,and put them down,for God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and will not put them down until they go against all that is called God,or is worshipped,and speak out against God,and Jesus,that there is no personal God,and go against the Christians,and then attack Israel,which is their last step to rid the world of all that claims a God,and acknowledges Jesus as Lord and Savior,and then God will put them down.

God will allow the world to go against all who are on God's side,and allow them to go as far as going against Israel,before He puts the world down,because God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and there will be no excuses but they showed they wanted nothing to do with God,and Jesus,and all who are associated with them,for they believe in no personal God.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period,because God is allowing the world to have their way,and rebel against Him,so He will not go against them until the 7 years period is over.

During the first three and one half years the world can still repent of their sins,and salvation is still offered to them,and under that condition God's wrath will not be poured out on the world yet,for it does not meet the requirement that they rebelled against God for Him to go against them,for God is still allowing the world to be saved at that point.

The world will operate by the ten horn kingdom,the world split in to ten sections,with a leader in each section,and a unified religious system,whose standard format is of the new age movement,which the man of sin works during the first three and one half years promoting the new age movement,and preparing things for the coming beast kingdom,which his first step is peace in the Middle East,and then the 7 years period will go from there.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

This happens during the first three and one half years,and is the religion of Islam against the world,as the world takes them down,for that is the plan of the man of sin,to go against Islam,Christianity,and Israel,one at a time.

That war is so terrible that the world lost hope,and the ten horn kingdom failed at trying to establish peace on earth,and they turn to the man of sin for the solution of what to do,which they know he believes in the harnessing of nature for power.

The 6 trumpets are 6 disasters that occur on earth that the world knows about,warnings to the world to turn to God,but after the 6th trumpet they will not repent of their sins,and turn to God,but keep trying to solve their problems on earth,so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them.

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

The beast,the man of sin,will convince the world that he harnessed the power of nature,and obtained power,and they believe he can establish his kingdom and no foe can stop him,and when the world takes the mark of the beast,then repentance,and salvation,is no longer available to them,but God allows the beast to make war against the saints,and prevail against them.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

The beast shall destroy the holy and mighty people.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

The saints shall be given in to the beast's hands for three and one half years.

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

When the beast shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people,then the resurrection shall occur,which the saints that are left after the persecution will be gathered unto Christ.

Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The beast has power to rule for the last three and one half years,which God is allowing the beast to rule,and have his way,so the wrath of God is not poured upon the world,for God is allowing the beast to rule,and have his way.

At the end of the three and one half years,the gathering of the saints unto Christ shall happen,and then the wrath of God is poured upon the world,leading up to the battle of Armageddon,which is when they attack Israel.

Eze 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
Eze 38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?
Eze 38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
Eze 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
Eze 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
Eze 38:21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
Eze 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Eze 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

When they attack Israel then God's fury shall come up in His face,and He will defeat the world,and save Israel.

Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
Eze 39:2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
Eze 39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
Eze 39:4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

Eze 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze 39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
Eze 39:24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

When God defeats the world,and saves Israel,the millennial reign of Christ will begin,and the kingdom restored to the Jews,and Jesus and the saints will rule over one sixth of the heathen that fought against Israel.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period,for repentance,and salvation,is available for the first three and one half years,and God allows the beast to rule,and have his way in the world,for the last three and one half years,so God will not go against them world until the 7 years period is over.

God will allow them to go against Israel,and then He will defeat the world,and put them down,for God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and will not put them down until they go against all that is called God,or is worshipped,and speak out against God,and Jesus,that there is no personal God,and go against the Christians,and then attack Israel,which is their last step to rid the world of all that claims a God,and acknowledges Jesus as Lord and Savior,and then God will put them down.

God will allow the world to go against all who are on God's side,and allow them to go as far as going against Israel,before He puts the world down,because God will not give up on the world,until the world gives up on Him,and there will be no excuses but they showed they wanted nothing to do with God,and Jesus,and all who are associated with them,for they believe in no personal God.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period.
If that is what you think........ but I THINK you really need to do some re-studying.
 
P

popeye

Guest
You're stepping into the middle of an ongoing conversation. Here is the passage I have repeatedly pointed to:

Matthew 24: 15, 21, 29, 31 --

"...when you see [1] the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...[2] then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will...but immediately [3] after the tribulation of those days...they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and [4] they will gather together His elect from the four winds..."

Debate to your heart's content. To me, Jesus' message to Peter, James and John was clear, simple, straightforward...such that a child could read through the text and understand it. My two cents.

Don't understand what you mean. What "foundation"?

Again, I don't know what that statement means. (?) One of the major 'headlines' of the Bible is..."in this world you will have tribulation"...exactly what Jesus told Peter, James and John.
You're stepping into the middle of an ongoing conversation. Here is the passage I have repeatedly pointed to:
more like an ongoing getting owned by pretribs and their bibles. LOL
 
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GaryA

Guest
By the way, there is no scripture that states that the two witnesses end the great tribulation. But scripture does state that it is Christ who brings the age to its end by returning to the earth.
I believe all of these verses are talking about the same thing:

Matthew 24:29
Mark 13:24-25
Luke 21:25-26
Acts 2:20
Revelation 6:12-13
Revelation 8:12

I believe this verse to be a "short description" of the Trumpet Events -- which the Two Witness actually bring about by their prophetic testimony:

Revelation 11:6

Now -- look at Trumpet 4 again.

Now -- back to the first two verses mentioned:

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500"]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew 24[/TD]
[TD]Mark 13[/TD]
[TD]Notes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days[/TD]
[TD]24 But in those days, after that tribulation,[/TD]
[TD]After the End of the Great Tribulation[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[/TD]
[TD]the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[/TD]
[TD]During the Trumpet Events

Two Witnesses[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.[/TD]
[TD]26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[/TD]
[TD]Jesus[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


~ Great Tribulation
~ Two Witnesses ( 3.5 years )
~ Jesus

It is not the return of Jesus that marks the end of the GT -- it is the Two Witnesses... ;)

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
Is the sign and His coming two different things, with a time gap?
Any 'gap' between the sign of His coming and His coming would be very short.

Take a look at the 'Heaven / Temple Opened' column of my 'Order of Events' page linked to in my signature.

:)
 
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GaryA

Guest
Revelation 11:

[SUP]3[/SUP] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
.
.
.

[SUP]6[/SUP]
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
The witnesses were there to preach to the people for 31/2 years.
You seem to be implying that the Two Witnesses "only preach"; that what these verses say is not true.

That is what the 'pre-trib' lie-of-Satan will do to you. It blinds you so that you will not see or accept straight-forward blatantly-obvious scripture.

Revelation 11:3 says:

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses..."

I believe that God will give power to His Two Witnesses.

Revelation 11:6 says:

"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

I believe that the Two Witnesses will have the power to do these things.

:)
 
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popeye

Guest
Ever wonder Why post tribe invoke dead men,early church doctrine?

That particular spirit was the vehicle for the Catholics inquisition.

They invoked the infallability of the church leaders DOCTRINE.

That is what post tribs do. They invoke a BELIEF SYSTEM.

OF MEN
 
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GaryA

Guest
OOPS!

I believe this verse to be a "short description" of the Trumpet Events -- which the Two Witness actually bring about by their prophetic testimony:
Two Witnesses

:eek:
 
G

GaryA

Guest
OOPS!

Take a look at the 'Heaven / Temple Opened' column of my 'Order of Events' page linked to in my signature.
Take a look at the 'Heaven / Temple Opened' column of the chart on the 'Order of Events' page linked to in my signature.

:eek:
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
3,076
59
48
You seem to be implying that the Two Witnesses "only preach"; that what these verses say is not true.

That is what the 'pre-trib' lie-of-Satan will do to you. It blinds you so that you will not see or accept straight-forward blatantly-obvious scripture.

Revelation 11:3 says:

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses..."

I believe that God will give power to His Two Witnesses.

Revelation 11:6 says:

"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will."

I believe that the Two Witnesses will have the power to do these things.

:)
You TWIST my words like you do God's Words.I said to preach NOT to "ONLY preach",,,,There is a difference.
 
G

GaryA

Guest
"Jesus was crucified in the middle of the 70th Week"??
The first phrase in verse 26 of Daniel 9 tells us this. However, you must understand that the 62 weeks mentioned do not start at the end of the 7th week; rather, they start in the middle of the 8th week - 52 years after the decree went forth to rebuild the city. Please see the 'Time Line' page linked to in my signature.


The 70th Week ended 3.5 years after His resurrection???
Again, I refer you to the first phrase in verse 26 of Daniel 9.


What key event is supposed to have happened, exactly 3.5 years after Jesus' resurrection? Come on, Gary. Give us a break.
It is said that Stephen was stoned "right about that time" - not that I am basing anything on it; however, it does make sense -- that is when the 'times of the Gentiles' began...

Of course, it could also be the "key event" ( with purpose ) that marks the end of the 'times of the Jews' and the beginning of the 'times of the Gentiles' -- considering the 'vision' that Stephen saw at the time...

"Food for thought..."

:)
 
M

MattTooFor

Guest
more like an ongoing getting owned by pretribs and their bibles. LOL
Look this over carefully and see if it helps clear things up! [And now for Popeye's magic "disappearing act".]:

Ahwatukee is claiming that the words which Jesus directed at Peter, James and John...were NOT directed at Peter, James and John. That is an astoundingly irrational comment.

Jesus' words WERE directed at Peter, James and John. Ahwatukee is therefore claiming that Peter, James and John went out from the Olivet Discourse...with erroneous beliefs.

According to Ahwatukee, Peter, James and John were under a mistaken impression. They held to erroneous beliefs.

They supposedly went out from the Olivet Discourse with beliefs that were, for them...false doctrine.

Therefore also, Jesus supposedly taught false doctrine to Peter, James and John.

Even worse, we can and should assume...that Peter, James, John and Andrew proceeded to teach these false doctrines.

They would have proceeded to teach others to live with an expectation of encountering the Abomination of Desolation...a teaching which directly contradicts and invalidates PreTrib doctrine.

And Peter, James and John would have proceeded to teach false doctrine throughout their lives.