Why I now believe in Predistination/Election

[Depleted]

For God, all things are possible. And with that, there's a conundrum. It is possible God knows all things. It is also possible God can learn. If one of these statements is not true, then the statement, "For God, all things are possible" is not true.

Just so you know. Your answer is not related to a Christian answer. Seems more eastern religion to me, but certainly not something a child of the true God would say. (So many scriptures to show God's omniscience, hard for me to pick which ones work here. I'm thinking God's answer to Job, Hebrews 4:13, 1 John 3:20, Isaiah 46:9-10, and that's just to start.)

There was a missionary hubby read about. He was a missionary on another continent, (I'm thinking Asia or Africa, but can't remember.) And then he tried to be a missionary in the Bible Belt. He said the first kind of missionary work was much easier because people didn't start off assuming they already were Christians. The Bible Belt was infinitely harder because they thought they were born believers. They thought they were saved because they were brought up in the church. You strike me as that kind of person -- someone who assumes because they spent their lives culturally Christian they are Christian.

This is the first time I've been able to pinpoint why you aren't (yet.) It also explains why you can be so cold-hearted to think going around saying that liberals deserve death is funny and everyone will get that your joking. My problem is I get you're not. No more than you're joking here.

 

[Depleted]

Exactly. Jesus is our Lord and Savior. Everything else is moot.

Special-version-I-created-Jesus is not Lord and Savior. He's a mental invention.

 

[Depleted]

but men choose for themselves the evil way. They were not predestined to do evil. So God's anger was kindled against all men in that all have sinned. On the other hand those who are chosen to do good are the elect. God foreknows men and chooses them that they might be justified and glorified. Rom 8.29-30

Heads up on where to point for your first few sentences. (You got the last part covered fine.) And do understand I'm agreeing with you, but these are good proof verses for what you're saying. (to keep tucked away for the next time you say these things.)

"but men choose for themselves the evil way." John 3:18-20

"They were not predestined to do evil. So God's anger was kindled against all men in that all have sinned." Romans 1:18-32

 

[Utah]

Well, honestly? Now that you've pretty much said you are God's puppet master, what's the difference. (Open theism is very much about telling God what to do and he's stuck dealing with those decisions after it happens.) So, that makes you the author of confusion.

You're right. I make a daily habit of telling God what to do. But so far you're still here.

 

[Utah]

What the heck Utah...???
Why so hateful?

And somebody actually hit "like" for that hateful post??

I meet people where they are regarding their heart and understanding.

 

[Utah]

Special-version-I-created-Jesus is not Lord and Savior. He's a mental invention.

How's that hate working out for ya?

 

[preacher4truth]

God wills that everyone should be saved.

Correction: In the context of the Scripture 2 Peter 3:9 it is God's will that all His elect are saved. They are the subject of that verse, following the context of the epistle. 2 Timothy 2:15. You do believe in 2 Timothy 2:15, correct, and following the context of the passage? If you do, you cannot prove otherwise concerning this oft misused text sir.

 

[Grace777x70]

Correction: In the context of the Scripture 2 Peter 3:9 it is God's will that all His elect are saved. They are the subject of that verse, following the context of the epistle. 2 Timothy 2:15. You do believe in 2 Timothy 2:15, correct, and following the context of the passage? If you do, you cannot prove otherwise concerning this oft misused text sir.

Sorry, I don't agree in the least with this.

God is not willing that any should perish.

2 Peter 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

The grace of God has appeared to all men - bringing salvation. The question is - Will all men receive this salvation offered?

Titus 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation toall men,

God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

God is the Savior of the world - especially of believers ( the ones that believed on Christ when they heard the gospel )

John 4:42 (NASB)
[SUP]42 [/SUP] and they were saying to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world."

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

Plus the over 30 verses in some form or other that say "whosoever believes" shall be saved.

I definitely believe in 2 Tim 2:15.

I have more faith that Daffy Duck and Donald Duck at the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation then God predestines people to hell on purpose and they have no choice to believe in Christ even though He died for them all.

It violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and is indicative of not knowing our Father's heart for people. We are trying to understand being predestined with our natural human reasoning and mis-interpreting what it actually means.

As I said before - this whole predestined thing has as much value as knowing the ant population in the Amazon jungle.

 

[Depleted]

Depleted,

I forgot you're a Calvinist.

So in my above comments, just disregard the mention of "praying people out of hell", and replace it with prayer for any other past event.

I'm not arguing about calvinism here, but about the nature of temporal time, and why God placed us into it.



The philosophical and scriptural problem is that praying to change PAST EVENTS would undo the LAW OF CAUSALITY... it would undo all laws of cause and effect which God built into the universe, and which he built into scripture, and doctrine.

If you could pray for past events, and change them... then you could pray to UNDO some sin you committed yesterday.
But you cannot.
You cannot undo time.

Despite being a Calvinist, (as in even before I was, but after I became born again), I didn't pray for people to come out of hell, anymore than I prayed for someone who has cancer to never have had cancer. We agree there, if it's happened then it already happened. I can't pray it to not-happen. The only thing that has changed since becoming a Calvinist is to add... because it was obviously God's will it would happen.

Some agreement, eh?

 

[Depleted]

Every Scripture you have given about partiality, is about Jew, Greek, salve or free, God has no partiality, as to who He choses or who He judges from these groups. The first two Scriptures you posted show that God does not chose those that go to hell, because He desires, would have, is wanting for all men to be saved, He is not willing, not wanting, not desiring that anyone should perish. But they are condemned already. John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." His sacrifice does not guarantee that all men could be saved, John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him."

How do the verses with John 3:16 end, verse 21, "But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God.” or as John writes it in John 1:12-13 "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. or as John writes in 3:3

"Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again." or as Paul writes I Corinthians 2:14 "The natural persondoes not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Notice what Paul says what happens once we are in Him/made alive/born again/born of God. Ephesians 1:13 "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,"

John 3:21 I still like "wrought" better. More powerful. One of those words that should come back into common use.

 

[Depleted]

First God does not predestine anyone to hell, His desire, wanting, would that, wishing all would be saved, not willing, desiring, wanting, would have any perish, He came into the world so the world might be saved, might be saved not could be saved. I Timothy 2:4, I Peter 3:9 and John 3:17. Read on my brother 8:30 "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Those to be comforted to the image of Christ, in His glorified state, are called to what salvation by justification or being found not guilty of their sins by God, He glorifies them or they become the image of Chirst our inheritance.

Let say this before you read this, "us" is always the Church/elect/called/chosen/beloved/Bride/the body. Beloved if not at the beginning of a sentence is Christ, lower case is us, the Church. Ephesians 1:3-14 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Notice in verse 13, you were already in Him, when you heard the word of truth, the Gospel and believed. Chosen before the creation, according to His will, not ours, unto salvation and all that it entails. Once sealed by the Spirit you are guaranteed to make heaven your home, New Heaven and New Earth to worship in the New Jerusalem.

Meh! I think God predestines more to hell than to him. Here's my logic:

-- Everyone who sins gets caught (by God) and gets the one-and-only judgement. Separation from God, death, and hell.

-- Big escape clause for that punishment though -- if someone is sinless than that person can take on the sinner's rightful punishment.

-- Guess who the only sinless one was. And he did take on that punishment, except only for some.

-- Who predestined who gets the that escape clause? The elect. The ones God has chosen.

-- So who are the others? The ones God did not choose.

Did he therefore not predestine them for hell as much as he predestined some to be his? Wasn't that also his choice?

 

[Depleted]

I expect a mule orifice to use the words he means. If you meant the word since, then use it rather than the word if. Casting stones at glass houses again.

Where in Scripture does it say that God knows everything past, present and future? If Scripture states it then I'll embrace it.

You said you went to seminary when you were young. I assumed that meant out of high school. Which then tells me you've been a believer for over 30 years. Which brings me to the obvious question:

How can you supposedly be a believer for over three decades and still need someone to teach you that God is omniscient? What god have you been with for so long?

 

[Depleted]

Why are unbelievers told to believe and repent if in actuality they have no choice. God honoring our free will brings him glory above all else. Job was a good example. Satin told God let me mess with Job and I know he will give up on you. God told Satin go ahead i believe Job will remain faithful.

Job was not forced to have faith, or God could of told Satin ," Satin now you know you have no influence on my children and for my chosen few I will carry them all the way unto death. So no satin tempting Job is pointless because i know he will remain faithful."

We bring glory to God by being faithful.

If it helps any, I also know which came first, the chicken or the egg. (The chicken.)

Which came first, redemption or belief? Which came first redemption or repent?

Redemption came first or we would never have known to believe or what to believe. Repent comes from redemption. The first thing that hits us, is "Whoa! I so don't deserve this! Forgive me Father."

And, yeah. God let Satan do his thing because he knew Job would stay faithful. He set that in motion way before Job had the wife, 10 kids, nice business and wonderful life. He set that in motion before the first time he uttered, "Let there be."

Come on now! You are supposedly a child of The King! And you don't yet get that God is supremely sovereign. If you don't get that, why do you have trouble thinking Satan wouldn't get that? (I'm now stuck with the infinite amount of stuff I don't know about God, but don't really expect him to expect me to know it all. Why would Satan become omniscient all of a sudden?)

 

[Depleted]

Even a child can understand that the word of God condemns man in the mind making them hear the truth. This is how no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit because God has made himself evident to all. So obviously its obvious that no one can call Jesus Lord until they have heard the word. God gives us this information and by that we are left with a choice to surrender or rebel. For those who surrender its obvious the only reason they know of Jesus is through God. This is why for those who have equally heard but denied Jesus are no longer without excuse but are in danger of killing the soul. This puppet theology is really infecting the truth.

We heard the truth! We heard it often. Jesus out and out told our reaction to that truth each and every time!
John 3:[FONT=&quot]19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.[/FONT]

This ain't something new or different. We heard the truth. We saw it, tasted it, smelled it, felt it, and heard it! The darkness was better!

 

[Depleted]

Or is it the pride on being self centered? Wrapping your head around it and calling it doctrines of demons, goes far beyond not understanding, someone with-in them is stirred up to lash out against it. I know it was for me,my sinful understanding begins to think of all kinds of things that were not true, I assumed lots of things.

I watched a video the other day, where a guy said he's talked to calvinist that say they truly don't know if they are saved or not. I posted on his channel, if he could give me a link to that so I could show some friends that are calvinist. His reply was, "you stupid devil go to hell with your demonic doctrine, you and your doctrines of demons will not be able to post here soon" WOW where did that come from. A side note here, I'm not calvinist, there are a few things that he believed that I don't. I posted twice on that channel and he never once used Scripture to debunk what Scripture I posted, just name calling.

Here's what I don't understand is why people would say thing about God in a negative way? Predestination, election, the inability for man to come to God or seek God is through out the word. He has written in Scripture how He has interrupted peoples live's. "I took Abram" Joshua 24:3, Acts 9:3-4 Suddenly a light from heaven shone around him.4 And falling to the ground," that doesn't sound like Paul's free will. Is God wrong for doing this? Certainly Not! They were both in a sinful life and God rescued them from it in His mercy and grace. He does this all the time, if He didn't no one would be saved.

I was born a sinner. I was very good at it. I excelled at it and developed it in a way that was uniquely mine. Sin nature. Even now, after being saved, I am so used to sin nature, super nature (God's nature) doesn't make sense compared to what I thought. His nature isn't our nature. And because of that, I get why it is so foreign to us, even after he regenerates us. Nothing else like it, so really hard to do a comparison study.

We do comparison studies until God gets through that too.

 

[samuel23]

Depleted, you need to finish the rest of that scripture. When you say WE, it makes me wonder if you got a frog in your pocket. Jesus said that SOME men loved darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil(John 3:19). OTHER men wanted the light(John 3:21). We are created by God with the ability to chose between good and evil, we do not have the ability in ourselves to live a really good life, however we have the ability to chose God and to chose good over evil.

 

[Grandpa]

Redemption came first or we would never have known to believe or what to believe. Repent comes from redemption. The first thing that hits us, is "Whoa! I so don't deserve this! Forgive me Father."

Do you ever wonder what a blessing it is to be shown this?

Do you ever wonder why everyone is not shown this? It seems to be a vicious circle to me. Pride thinks it is self that is the cause of blessing. Pride of choosing to be righteous. Pride of choosing to be saved.

But once pride is set aside and you say to the Lord "I can't do this myself" then the vail over the mind is removed. We realize we weren't the cause of our Righteousness. We weren't the cause of our Salvation. We weren't the cause of our faith. The Lord Jesus Christ is the cause for all of our blessings. And we honestly don't deserve any of it.

It makes us grateful. Even for what we perceive to be "the little things".

The worst thing is getting used to be being blessed and starting to think you are entitled and no longer being grateful. I don't suppose God lets His Children stay like that for very long... Some of us learn the hard way. I am one of those.

Don't touch that, its hot.
Ok (Well maybe you just aren't as tough or as smart as me) <touch> Ow. That IS hot.

I think there is a special place in the Heart of God for dummies like me... There must be. Because here I am... lol

 

[preacher4truth]

Depleted, you need to finish the rest of that scripture. When you say WE, it makes me wonder if you got a frog in your pocket. Jesus said that SOME men loved darkness rather then light because their deeds were evil(John 3:19). OTHER men wanted the light(John 3:21). We are created by God with the ability to chose between good and evil, we do not have the ability in ourselves to live a really good life, however we have the ability to chose God and to chose good over evil.

No, sorry, that's incorrect. Is it as if they had more sense to come to the light because they were better than others, or because they were good, or because they made the right choice? Of course not, that is not the case. All have sinned, Romans 3:23; None are good, Romans 3:11ff, they could not please God; Romans 8:8.

They were thus at some point in the exact same position as all the lost.

Jesus dogmatically asserted no man has the ability to come to God. Assuredly you know the difference in meaning between the words "may" and "can". When Jesus said "no man can come to the Father EXCEPT..." the word "can" here implies, and means inability. They are then rendered unable. You say man is able, has the ability. Your words are contrary to the words of the Christ of God.

Therefore, those who came to the light were drawn, and, they were in the past as the rest of mankind, that is, their deeds were also evil at some point prior to regeneration (note Ephesians 2:3).

There is no doubt then that a work of God had been done within these who came to the light, which is by and of God regeneration. They didn't come to the light out of their own goodness, or ability, or because they were better than others. It was all due to a work of God and one can guarantee they're not in heaven right now thinking they had the ability to do it, or are there because they made the right choice. Salvation isn't via choice; John 1:13; Romans 9:11ff; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31; 1 Peter 1:1-5; James 1:18, and we believe only by God's power; Ephesians 1:19.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do you ever wonder what a blessing it is to be shown this?

Do you ever wonder why everyone is not shown this? It seems to be a vicious circle to me. Pride thinks it is self that is the cause of blessing. Pride of choosing to be righteous. Pride of choosing to be saved.

But once pride is set aside and you say to the Lord "I can't do this myself" then the vail over the mind is removed. We realize we weren't the cause of our Righteousness. We weren't the cause of our Salvation. We weren't the cause of our faith. The Lord Jesus Christ is the cause for all of our blessings. And we honestly don't deserve any of it.

It makes us grateful. Even for what we perceive to be "the little things".

The worst thing is getting used to be being blessed and starting to think you are entitled and no longer being grateful. I don't suppose God lets His Children stay like that for very long... Some of us learn the hard way. I am one of those.

Don't touch that, its hot.
Ok (Well maybe you just aren't as tough or as smart as me) <touch> Ow. That IS hot.

I think there is a special place in the Heart of God for dummies like me... There must be. Because here I am... lol

if I am in a storm, and totally unable to save myself.. Yet am too proud to allow someone to save me and die.. I have no one to blame but myself

If in the same situation. I humble myself and allow him to save me,, I can not be proud because I chose to allow someone to save me,, I can have pride in the savior. but not myself..

I will never understand where the thinking comes that people can be proud because they humbled themselves and came to the cross and allowed it to save them. Because they realized, they could not save themselves.

The proud will die, because they continue to try to save self..

 

[preacher4truth]

if I am in a storm, and totally unable to save myself.. Yet am too proud to allow someone to save me and die.. I have no one to blame but myself

If in the same situation. I humble myself and allow him to save me,, I can not be proud because I chose to allow someone to save me,, I can have pride in the savior. but not myself..

I will never understand where the thinking comes that people can be proud because they humbled themselves and came to the cross and allowed it to save them. Because they realized, they could not save themselves.

The proud will die, because they continue to try to save self..

Pars Deo Gloria!

Pars Hominis Gloria!

Soli Hominis Gloria!

Folks, take your pick, the above post is at the least one of those "three solas," and is nothing but pride and boasting. And take notice, there is not one Scripture...

Hmmmmm.