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Ok I'll explain, you want to believe God gave you the ability to believe so that verse as it is written fits that mentality to the tee.
Now I had never said you didnt have nothing good, that is your own thinking not mine I never said it that way, you brought up having nothing good, not my words. quote me where I said you have nothing good that God Himself didn't give you. That's Astro projecting stuff. I didn't place that thought in your head.
Now I had never said you didnt have nothing good, that is your own thinking not mine I never said it that way, you brought up having nothing good, not my words. quote me where I said you have nothing good that God Himself didn't give you. That's Astro projecting stuff. I didn't place that thought in your head.
Originally Posted by valiant
Grace is NOT a gift from God except in its secondary meaning. It is the grace (unmerited favour) of God the giver that has saved us. Not some particular gift.
when Paul says, 'the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit' he is referring to their attributes. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is His unmerited favour towards us. It is personal to Him. In the same way the love of God refers to His love towards us. Again it is personal to Him. It is introducing us to their grace and love, not referring to some gift. That is to demean it.
E
I do not see it this way.. My faith is in God, In his work, In his promise,. It is not that I did anything good to save myself.. In fact it is that I can NOT do anything in myself that I had to trust Jesus..
I deserve the condemnation the unbeliever will recieve, What separates me from them is I have been born again, not that I did anything to save myself.
Originally Posted by valiant
charis (grace) is feminine------- touto (that) is neuter, therefore the one cannot refer to the other as touto always follows the gender of the noun to which it refers,.
E
This is why I have these people on ignore.. There Is no discussing anything with them, They always blam shift. There are many people in CC I disagree with who I have a great relationship with (Utah does not believe in eternal security, Do you see me attacking him and hating on him because we disagree) it is time for people to take responsibility for their own actions and stop blaming everyone else.
You didn't say it...I said it - I have nothing good that I didn't receive from God. All good things that I have have come from God and God alone. I have no good thing except from God. All my good has come from Him. This is what I said - not what you said. It is what I believe...I wasn't accusing you of saying it about me. I said it about me. You said I was trying to fit the verse to my view. I was stating my view - that I have nothing good that came to me from myself. All good I have has come from God.
Unnerstand knucklehead?
(Just kidding, you're more a bonehead) And doubly so because you've made me late. lol
Unnerstand knucklehead?
(Just kidding, you're more a bonehead) And doubly so because you've made me late. lol
B
You didn't say it...I said it - I have nothing good that I didn't receive from God. All good things that I have have come from God and God alone. I have no good thing except from God. All my good has come from Him. This is what I said - not what you said. It is what I believe...I wasn't accusing you of saying it about me. I said it about me. You said I was trying to fit the verse to my view. I was stating my view - that I have nothing good that came to me from myself. All good I have has come from God.
Unnerstand knucklehead? (Just kidding, you're more a bonehead) And doubly so because you've made me late. lol
Unnerstand knucklehead?
(Just kidding, you're more a bonehead) And doubly so because you've made me late. lol
Originally Posted by valiant
charis (grace) is feminine------- touto (that) is neuter, therefore the one cannot refer to the other as touto always follows the gender of the noun to which it refers,.
Grace is feminine, therefore any pronoun that refers directly to it must be feminine. The gender was fixed by the Greeks based on the type of word. It is unchangeable. The noun was seen as being 'softer' therefore feminine. So if grace was being referred to as a gift in Ephesians 2.8 it would be by means of feminine pronoun, not by a neuter pronoun.
To the unlearned this can lead to confusion. But it is a fact of the language,
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This is the problem with going across analogies.
The prodigal son is fruit, who when things were the worst realised he still had a place
he could go where he could be loved, and was prepared to return.
So he was good fruit, who started with little promise but returned with great bounty,
valuing his home and his Father.
The prodigal son is fruit, who when things were the worst realised he still had a place
he could go where he could be loved, and was prepared to return.
So he was good fruit, who started with little promise but returned with great bounty,
valuing his home and his Father.
Yes it does, grace first then faith, the word "through" here is being used in the same way we use it when speaking to someone with cancer. "For cancer you need to go through chemo" The chemo doesn't give you the cancer, it a result of the cancer.
In the same way, where Peter say, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins," The word "for" is more like because, but it is being in the same way we use it when someone has a headache, what do we say. "For a headache take an aspirin" Are we taking the aspirin to get the headache, no, we are taking the aspirin, because we have a headache.
Same here, faith doesn't produce grace, faith is the result of grace
In the same way, where Peter say, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins," The word "for" is more like because, but it is being in the same way we use it when someone has a headache, what do we say. "For a headache take an aspirin" Are we taking the aspirin to get the headache, no, we are taking the aspirin, because we have a headache.
Same here, faith doesn't produce grace, faith is the result of grace
The problem with all these perspectives is they are probably all true.
The nuance is which takes precedence over the other, and is God predestining us, is this particular
or in general?
We know we choose things, yet without experience and response within we would not choose one
way and might go another. We know life is gift, so is our environment, our families, our education,
our intelligence etc. But also we can work with it, put effort in and turn it to good, or let it rot.
Love calls us to take responsibility, to choose to serve, to humble ourselves, all things relating
to our actions. We are called to obey, to learn, to follow. These are all things we have to choose
to do and take effort, planning direction.
So you could read in almost everything, and show it has a part to play, yet to over emphasis any
one aspect looses the real wonder
The nuance is which takes precedence over the other, and is God predestining us, is this particular
or in general?
We know we choose things, yet without experience and response within we would not choose one
way and might go another. We know life is gift, so is our environment, our families, our education,
our intelligence etc. But also we can work with it, put effort in and turn it to good, or let it rot.
Love calls us to take responsibility, to choose to serve, to humble ourselves, all things relating
to our actions. We are called to obey, to learn, to follow. These are all things we have to choose
to do and take effort, planning direction.
So you could read in almost everything, and show it has a part to play, yet to over emphasis any
one aspect looses the real wonder
Thank you, now people can stop talking about double election, because God's not willing, wanting, that any should perish, He's desire, would, want all to be saved, at the sometime they are not saying that God's will or purpose is for all men to be saved. As it is what His elect/called/chosen/body/bride it is His purpose and will that thy are saved.
E
I can't agree, Because he can not make one alive who is still dead because of sin, The sin issue must be removed before one is made alive,, That is where the cross comes into play, And is called justification. ..
I disagree;
I said God showed grace, he would not give Israel the land untilt he sin of the Amorite was complete..
You want scripture (I thought this was well known. Sorry
Gen 15: . [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
Sodom and Gomorrah.
Gen 18: [SUP]26 [/SUP]So the Lord said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: [SUP]28 [/SUP]Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?”
So He said, “If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it.”
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And he spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose there should be forty found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it for the sake of forty.”
[SUP]30 [/SUP]Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And he said, “Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty.”
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?”
And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.” [SUP]33 [/SUP]So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.
again, I thought this was a well known story.. Forgive me[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]
E
Then we should change it to saved by grace through my own choice, and that choice of myself so I can boast that I am going to heaven because of my wise choice and others are going to hell because of their unwise choice.
God could have made us robots.. Forced these people to say yes, forced those people to say no (just by not allowing them to say yes0
Or he could be a relational God. And say I will take the penalty in your place. but I will not force it on you, I will require you to say, yes, Lord, I want it. or no Lord I do not.
If you force things on people they do nto really appreciate it,, But if you offer, and they freely receive, then a much greater affect occurs and a far deeper relationship grows.
No, I did not chose to save myself. I could not save myself no matter what I did.
God chose to die for me, and chose to not force his salvation on me, but ALLOWED me to chose to say yes Lord, or no lord.