RIDICULOUS CHRISTIAN CLAIMS AND SHAMING JESUS

[LanceA]

I don't want to come across too harshly. It's just unfortunate that Charismatics explain away the total absence of Jesus-style and apostle-style miracles...because of the 'inferior faith' of American (or Western) Christians.

In my experience, there are so many demoralized Charismatics who beat themselves up for not having seen or experienced these kinds of miracles. And then, as the OP is saying...it also fosters ridiculous and dishonest claims going on, all over the place.

And then the other dubious aspect...that all the mriacles are supposedly happening in faraway countries...and usually 2 or 3 or 8 years ago...and the story is coming to us, 8th hand, 12th hand, 15th hand.

It is funny that you are making fun of it. Jesus speaks of lack of faith and belief many times in the gospels. I think all Christians lack faith from time to time. I'm not going to convince you of the miracles I have seen. When these such miracles happen I'm not thinking of my cell phone or a video recorder, I am in worship or prayer for another individual and could care less who I need to prove it to at the time. I'm not a street preacher or a street healer. When healing is done it is usually something that isn't planned and if it is in church, well I don't have my phone on me it is in the car.

If you don't want to believe in it then that is between you and God. I believe in it because I have witnessed such healings and miracles. And if you don't believe me, well I could really care less. That is your issue not mine. I will now bow out of this conversation as well because it isn't edifying any of us and definitely not edifying God.

 

[miknik5]

GOD is able to do anything!
but HE does it for HIS GLORY and HIS PIRPOSE that we should glory in HIM

You have seen HIS miracles and HIS healings!

Wonderful!

Give GLORY and PRAISE to HIM and HIM alone

 

[DJ2]

It is funny that you are making fun of it. Jesus speaks of lack of faith and belief many times in the gospels. I think all Christians lack faith from time to time. I'm not going to convince you of the miracles I have seen. When these such miracles happen I'm not thinking of my cell phone or a video recorder, I am in worship or prayer for another individual and could care less who I need to prove it to at the time. I'm not a street preacher or a street healer. When healing is done it is usually something that isn't planned and if it is in church, well I don't have my phone on me it is in the car.

If you don't want to believe in it then that is between you and God. I believe in it because I have witnessed such healings and miracles. And if you don't believe me, well I could really care less. That is your issue not mine. I will now bow out of this conversation as well because it isn't edifying any of us and definitely not edifying God.

He is not "making fun of it", that is a rather poor judgement of his reply. MattTooFar is but exposing a huge logical hole in the Charismatic theology. A hole that followers of this movement will not address. It is because of the refusal to give any reasonable explanation that puts this movement into doubt. Any notion that can not stand up to simple questioning is for most purposes false. This movement is built on shifting sands. It takes very little effort to see this.

 

[DJ2]

GOD is able to do anything!
but HE does it for HIS GLORY and HIS PIRPOSE that we should glory in HIM

You have seen HIS miracles and HIS healings!

Wonderful!

Give GLORY and PRAISE to HIM and HIM alone

Your words are but generalities. I would like to reply but I don't see your point.

 

[miknik5]

Your words are but generalities. I would like to reply but I don't see your point.

You don't see the point that all HIS miracles and healings are to bring men to faith in HIM?

THATS....the WHOLE PONT

And there's really nothing that you need to say other than THAT being THE TRUTH of why signs miracles and healing are given

 

[MattTooFor]

It is funny that you are making fun of it.

No, it's exactly as DJ2 states it -- I'm trying NOT to "make fun" but still express concern. Is there no room for discussion? Is all discussion to be categorized as an "attack"?

I think all Christians lack faith from time to time.

Yes but...ironically, since we're on the subject of 'attacking' other's beliefs...Charismatics don't view non-Charismatics as lacking faith "from time to time". No, they view us as lacking faith ALL the time.

Therefore (and as I have repeatedly argued in the past)...if Charismatics want to be perfectly consistent with their own doctrines...they need to view us who NEVER have the faith...as 'unbelievers', as 'unsaved'.

But alas...this is where most Charismartics bail out on their own beliefs. They inexplicably give us 'unbelievers' a pass and claim that we're nevertheless somehow 'saved' despite an inability to 'believe God'.

When healing is done it is usually something that isn't planned and if it is in church, well I don't have my phone on me it is in the car.

Right. But worldwide...several hundred million cell phones...and not a single credible miracle recorded? It is reasonable therefore to conclude this stuff isn't happening. And then we have all the major and most successful Charismatic churches in the world who televise their church services every Sunday.

If you don't want to believe in it then that is between you and God. I believe in it because I have witnessed such healings and miracles.

But when you say it is "between me and God" and along with some other statements you make...you are none too subtly suggesting I am manifesting 'spiritual problems' because I am not putting my faith in second hand stories. I have been chided in this way a dozen times by Charismatics...when they proclaim "oh, you have little faith...like a Doubting Thomas".

My response to them is "I don't have little faith. When it comes to second hand stories, I have ZERO faith. However...in God's Word, I hope I have MUCH faith. Your story, not so much."

You're chiding me for not believing second hand stories. You don't understand: The 'sign gifts' were meant to be viewed by one's own eyeballs...not related 2nd hand, 5th hand, 8th hand...from a distance of 3000, 6000, 8000 miles...and from 3 years ago, 8 years, 12 years.

That is why there was ZERO controversy back when there were these full-blown Jesus-style / apostle-style miracles: Everyone was able to witness it for themselves...and not have to be chided by fellow believers because they hadn't seen any such thing and were thus expressing disbelief (as I am now!)

 

[DJ2]

You don't see the point that all HIS miracles and healings are to bring men to faith in HIM?

THATS....the WHOLE PONT

And there's really nothing that you need to say other than THAT being THE TRUTH of why signs miracles and healing are given

If this is your whole point......okay. But who thinks that the miraculous is not meant to bring men to faith?
The question is which events are miraculous. Without discerning what is and is not miraculous the issue is moot. When choosing between real and unreal, common sense always trumps theory. Don't you agree?

 

[loveme1]

Tar and Brush comes to mind. To state you would not be a Christian for those reasons is to me as crazy as the claims you threat about in your post.

 

[miknik5]

If this is your whole point......okay. But who thinks that the miraculous is not meant to bring men to faith?
The question is which events are miraculous. Without discerning what is and is not miraculous the issue is moot. When choosing between real and unreal, common sense always trumps theory. Don't you agree?

Faith directed in and on CHRIST alone regardless of miracles, signs or physical healing TRUMPS EVERYTHING!

Don't you agree?

 

[DJ2]

Faith directed in and on CHRIST alone regardless of miracles, signs or physical healing TRUMPS EVERYTHING!

Don't you agree?

I am sorry. but I have no idea what your sentence is about or even means.

 

[oldethennew]

GOD is able to do anything!
but HE does it for HIS GLORY and HIS PIRPOSE that we should glory in HIM

You have seen HIS miracles and HIS healings!

Wonderful!

Give GLORY and PRAISE to HIM and HIM alone

============================================

great post, you obviously have a close walk' with our Saviour....

 

[miknik5]

I am sorry. but I have no idea what your sentence is about or even means.

It means you don't understand The whole POINT of why miraculous signs of healing and GOOD THINGS are given

abd you're making it clear that you don't

 

[DJ2]

It means you don't understand The whole POINT of why miraculous signs of healing and GOOD THINGS are given

abd you're making it clear that you don't

I am very sorry but I really don't understand what you are talking about. What part of your message am I not getting. What do you mean by the "whole point".

 

[DJ2]

We were talking about miracles

correct?

we weren't discussing men providing credentials as proof who they were

we were talking about the ONE who came and did what no other could do who has left WITNESSES who testify of HIM


john 15:22-25

CHRIST testifies of HIMSELF
Though of course many of the Law didn't accept HIS TESTIMONY because the Law requires two or three witnesses


well today there are many witnesses and still
this generation wants more

Yes we are talking about miracles. We are talking about proving a claim, regardless of the claim. We not talking about the claims of Jesus Christ. I am not sure what John 15:22-25 has to do with this issue. Do you understand what this thread is about?

 

[samuel23]

I was in the charismatic movement for a long time and I have found the same as these fellows are saying, there is so much fakery. Miracles are happening all the time, but not really, it is mostly all talk. I believe that God does do miracles, but not most of the time, most of the time we must walk by faith. It is hypocrisy to pretend that a miracle has taken place when it has not really taken place.

 

[JIMBO43]

Mental ilness can come to anyone in there life time ans somtimes it can be traumatition... like a trauma that can stay stored inside of you or at least it was for me.... I was digonosed with a complex trauma disorder... multiple traumas coming to the service....

Thank God has pulled me through coz many can perish with my disorder ie take there own life...
some how God has manged to build me up a little bit but as it stands the hurt is so great for me that it makes me wonder if God left it so long until he realsead my traumas untill i was old enough to deal with it...Anyways like a ticking time bomb they realeased and i was safe in Hospital when ever they Got to bad....

However here i am telling my testimony that God will and can move mountains for anyone...And if that means Showing you wonders then he will do that for you if your in great trouble....

 

[sparkman]

Here's some other ridiculous ones...one lady claims that God caused gold nuggets or dust to rain down in her backyard or something like that..other people have claimed that God caused bad checks they had written to pass through continually over a long period of time.

Make no mistake..I believe God provides for His children, sometimes in miraculous ways, but I don't believe these two claims.

I can remember times when my family was struggling financially and somehow we never ceased to have food, housing and heat. I attribute that to God's providence but I don't have to make extraordinary claims like God raining down gold dust or nuggets, or allowing me to write bad checks that clear miraculously.

 

[sparkman]

Here's another example of ridiculous chat claims.

I chatted a lot with a deaf person. His username reflected his deafness. OFTEN he would get people wanting to pray for him to be healed of his deafness or to cast out the demons that were causing it.

It got so bad that he had to put a message in his private chat window telling people he didn't want their prayers and didn't have any demons.

This person was simply seeking to interact with Christians, and to learn more about salvation, and he basically gets accused by loons of having demons.

What kind of witness does that leave to a seeker, when loons are accusing a seeker of having demons? Would the demons within cause him to be seeking a relationship with God? I doubt it.

I was away from the chat site for a number of months and I haven't seen him on here since then. I am hoping he made some progress in seeking a relationship with Jesus. I am sure he encountered some sound people here, and realized that we aren't all loons.

By the way, I have also been accused of thwarting the work of the Holy Spirit on the chat site recently through email. As I have said, I believe God still performs miracles of providence and healing today, so genuine works of the Holy Spirit are not an issue with me. It is the ridiculous claims from dubious individuals that I take issue with. Internet claims are cheap.

I created this meme, but realize I don't consider this to be a joking matter..it is more of an expression of my scorn for those who claim ridiculous things, who live in their own imaginations seeing demons around every corner.

 

[CeileDe]

Here's another example of ridiculous chat claims.

I chatted a lot with a deaf person. His username reflected his deafness. OFTEN he would get people wanting to pray for him to be healed of his deafness or to cast out the demons that were causing it.

It got so bad that he had to put a message in his private chat window telling people he didn't want their prayers and didn't have any demons.

This person was simply seeking to interact with Christians, and to learn more about salvation, and he basically gets accused by loons of having demons.

What kind of witness does that leave to a seeker, when loons are accusing a seeker of having demons? Would the demons within cause him to be seeking a relationship with God? I doubt it.

I was away from the chat site for a number of months and I haven't seen him on here since then. I am hoping he made some progress in seeking a relationship with Jesus. I am sure he encountered some sound people here, and realized that we aren't all loons.

By the way, I have also been accused of thwarting the work of the Holy Spirit on the chat site recently through email. As I have said, I believe God still performs miracles of providence and healing today, so genuine works of the Holy Spirit are not an issue with me. It is the ridiculous claims from dubious individuals that I take issue with. Internet claims are cheap.

I created this meme, but realize I don't consider this to be a joking matter..it is more of an expression of my scorn for those who claim ridiculous things, who live in their own imaginations seeing demons around every corner.

Hi Sparkman, I guess I'm not quite sure what your motive is. I've been reading the forums and when I come across any of your posts, that I have seen, it is very negative and complaining. Is this all you are about? I am sure there is much more to you than some guy just sitting behind a computer complaining about people you disagree with.

I believe demons have more of an influence than some Christians want to admit. The bible does tell us to put on the Armor of God. Usually if there is a warning about something there is a reason for it. They don't make toxic hazard signs just because they think they are cool or pretty looking.

You seem very passionate about your faith and I think you are just coming at it all wrong by complaining and attacking other members.

 

[CeileDe]

Ephesians 4:29-32 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
[SUP]31 [/SUP] Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice.
[SUP]32 [/SUP] Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.