I thought you had a choiceI've been predestined to wash me car .....so it's off to wash I go, heigh ho, heigh ho...
Some people drive dirty cars, after all 
Why im not a calvinist (but want to be)
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Some people drive dirty cars, after all
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Spokenpassage
Guest
It is awkward if we took "know" to mean acknowledge in every context. Like, "Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain..." (Gen. 4:1). I could not explain and defend that in this verse...
how does that affirm total depravity? it more like denies it, by saying u can also obey unto righteousness. ??????
Guys the real core issue I and probably many others have with that theory is that it makes people not responsible for their actions and sins, sin is no longer what you do, its what you are.
So therefore people are not accountable for their own actions, and the only reason they are lost because they are born with a sinful nature (not of their own fault btw, they didnt choose to be born) and they just didnt win in the grace lottery and God didnt grant them repentance and faith.
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Spokenpassage
Guest
This "theory" upholds that both, you are responsible for your original sin and your actual sin. If you find it unfair to be judged for Adam's sin, then it should equally be unfair for God to judge you for Christ's righteousness, since it was not your own.
Obviously its unjust to be judged over other's sin, and the bible doesnt teach that.
read ezekiel 18.
Who does what is right is righteous
1 John 3:7
cornelius was also called righteous, same with elizabeth in luke 1:6 and on and on.
Cornelius was a gentile so he wasnt even keeping the jewish law and was still considered righteous!
I mean this is ridicilous, you are literally saying everyone is judged for Adam's sin. You lost me there, bad arguments, bad logic, wicked idea, very wicked. Conversation over.
I guess we gotta do whatever it takes to make sure no one can CHOOSE to repent and turn to God.
Justify sin and blame it on a fictional disease, its not that we CHOOSE to do evil, its something inherent in us, im just a victim.
Come on now, take accountability, i got no problem admitting my CHOICE to do evil or good.
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Spokenpassage
Guest
Let's consider this text:
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous."
- Romans 5:18, 19
C'mon Paul! Take accountability! You can't say that!
Or is this talking about something else? Perhaps that Adam and his posterity were under a covenant of works?
"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous."
- Romans 5:18, 19
C'mon Paul! Take accountability! You can't say that!
Or is this talking about something else? Perhaps that Adam and his posterity were under a covenant of works?
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Spokenpassage
Guest
I wouldn't define the "true gospel of Christ" as being the same as Calvinism.
Someone could be Evangelical, and not believe in Reformed theology, and believe in the true gospel of Christ.
These articles are commonly held elements of essential Christianity. By essential, I mean that they define the core doctrines of Christianity. A new believer may not understand some of these elements, though. I certainly did not.
1) the full deity of Jesus Christ
2) monotheism (there is only one God)
3) the doctrine of the Trinity or Triune nature of God
4) justification by faith alone
5) authority and inspiration of Scripture
6) substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ on the cross
7) original sin
8) virgin birth
9) bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ
10) eternal reward of the righteous and eternal
punishment of the wicked at Christ's return
Ezekiel 18 covers a general rule, however, note that God punished Israel by killing innocent subjects of King David because he numbered Israel. God indeed does punish in a corporate manner for the sins of individuals. Adam was our corporate head...he represented us under the Adamic Covenant. His failure to obey God caused us all to fall into condemnation. It is plainly taught in Romans 5.
There are other examples in the Old Testament where God punishes a group of people for the sins of one individual. For example, the sins of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. God punished their entire families for the sin of the individuals, children and all.
It is impossible to claim otherwise. You cannot conform Yahweh into your own image and apply your standard of fairness to Him.
The fair thing is that we all go to eternal punishment anyways. God is gracious in saving any.
Read your Old Testament and focus on this theme of corporate responsibility. You will find that in fact God does exercise corporate punishment based on the sin of an individual.
1. Can you define free will for me?
2. Where is it written He has given us free will?
"Corporate responsibility" was part of the blessings and cursings of the old covenant (Deuteronomy) - we are not under the covenant, which was done away.
A man who sins does so wittingly knowing what he is doing. He cannot make an excuse that it is his 'nature'. He has deliberately chosen to sin. All men are responsible for their own actions. They had the freedom to sin, and did so. Thus they come under the judgment of God. Their nature does not excuse them, rather it further condemns them. All men are therefore sinners and are in this predicament.
And no man once fallen will seek God because he has put himself against God. The only way that they therefore can be saved is if God saves them totally undeservedly. And the Scripture says that He chooses to do this on a limited number. He does not explain to us why the number is limited. Who are we to argue with God.?
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Point #1 Free will is the option each and every person has in their life to choose to do evil or good, to choose God or to choose the devil. To help or harm.
Point #2 is literally on pretty much every page of the bible, you know those HUNDREDS maybe even thousands of times God tells people to do something, such as believe, repent, have faith, turn, whatever the case may be. Most famous of these is probably Deuteronomy 11:26-27 where it says: "Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;"
I mean, why would God keep asking people to do things such as repent, if its impossible for them to do so without God giving them that repentance, it would be God arguing with Himself
(Rev 3:20, 2 peter 3:9, acts 2:38, too many to mention, its everywhere.)Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
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Its funny you would quote that, because it also goes against calvinism's limited atonement.
Also what in the WORLD is a pelagian, i have to google that out
I got no problem with that passage whatsoever, is that supposed to prove total depravity or something? This is again another terrible argument, because it says why this many were made sinners thru one man's disobedience thru which sin entered the world:
romans 5:12
[FONT="]Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:[/FONT]
"justification and life for all men"
If all were made sinners then all will be made righteous, universal salvation, then there is no such thing as election, all get saved.
You just killed election in one swoop...
"justification and life for all men"
If all were made sinners then all will be made righteous, universal salvation, then there is no such thing as election, all get saved.
You just killed election in one swoop...
Yeah thats what i said too, limited atonement down the drain.
This is absolutely TERRIBLE to watch, once you view everything thru the lens of calvinism this is what happens.
hahaha
WHAT IS GOING ON. Atleast valiant brought forth good points in my opinion, also preacher4truth has given me some good material to study in PM. So there are many smart calvinists out there. notmyown and depleted also, many to name. Despite our differences God bless!