Those Who Deny Sin in a Believer

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Angela_grace

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Jan 3, 2016
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So you're saying Eve did not sin. Not sure if I quite agree with you there. The idea that Jesus could be born of Mary because Eve didn't sin makes some sense. But then it almost seems like all women therefore are without sin which is not the case.... I don't know. I'm a bit confused. But the idea that we are all from Adam makes sense. Since well I carry my father's name not my mom's. She also suffered other consequences that were solely hers. Pain in child bearing.

Yes, he did go to do that. But if it were solely for that purpose why did he say he must leave or the Holy Spirit would not come?
 

ForthAngel

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Aug 31, 2012
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So you're saying Eve did not sin. Not sure if I quite agree with you there. The idea that Jesus could be born of Mary because Eve didn't sin makes some sense. But then it almost seems like all women therefore are without sin which is not the case.... I don't know. I'm a bit confused. But the idea that we are all from Adam makes sense. Since well I carry my father's name not my mom's. She also suffered other consequences that were solely hers. Pain in child bearing.

Yes, he did go to do that. But if it were solely for that purpose why did he say he must leave or the Holy Spirit would not come?
The issue is that Adam was responsible regardless if Eve sinned or not. He was the first created in the image of God and the pinnacle of creation. He was responsible. His response to her should have been "No, I'm not eating that are you crazy?", but rather, he willingly ate of it. Even was coerced, Adam was not.

Regardless, the text is clear that Adam was the one responsible, so that can't be disputed.

I don't get the being born of a woman part either to be honest.

As for him leaving for the Holy Spirit to come, the others have better answers for that than me.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Thanks! That means she fell away, sinned, right?
You're welcome! Yes, she sinned. The reason Mary did not pass on the sin nature is because "the seed of the woman" was from God himself, not from man, so sin nature was not passed on from humankind to the Christ of God.
 
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You're welcome! Yes, she sinned. The reason Mary did not pass on the sin nature is because "the seed of the woman" was from God himself, not from man, so sin nature was not passed on from humankind to the Christ of God.
Which is what I implied but I guess my answer was not good enough
 
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From Charles Spurgeon's "All of Grace" Chapter 6. I think you might find this useful considering the debate on this thread. Apologies for it being a little long (a few pages).

CONCERNING DELIVERANCE FROM SINNING

N THIS PLACE I would say a plain word or two to those who understand the method of justification by faith which is in Christ Jesus, but whose trouble is that they cannot cease from sin. We can never be happy, restful, or spiritually healthy till we become holy. We must be rid of sin; but how is the riddance to be wrought? This is the life-or-death question of many. The old nature is very strong, and they have tried to curb and tame it; but it will not be subdued, and they find themselves, though anxious to be better, if anything growing worse than before. The heart is so hard, the will is so obstinate, the passions are so furious, the thoughts are so volatile, the imagination is so ungovernable, the desires are so wild, that the man feels that he has a den of wild beasts within him, which will eat him up sooner than be ruled by him. We may say of our fallen nature what the Lord said to Job concerning Leviathan: "Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?" A man might as well hope to hold the north wind in the hollow of his hand as expect to control by his own strength those boisterous powers which dwell within his fallen nature. This is a greater feat than any of the fabled labors of Hercules: God is wanted here.
"I could believe that Jesus would forgive sin," says one, "but then my trouble is that I sin again, and that I feel such awful tendencies to evil within me. As surely as a stone, if it be flung up into the air, soon comes down again to the ground, so do I, though I am sent up to heaven by earnest preaching, return again to my insensible state. Alas ! I am easily fascinated with the basilisk eyes of sin, and am thus held as under a spell, so that I cannot escape from my own folly."
Dear friend, salvation would be a sadly incomplete affair if it did not deal with this part of our ruined estate. We want to be purified as well as pardoned. Justification without sanctification would not be salvation at all. It would call the leper clean, and leave him to die of his disease; it would forgive the rebellion and allow the rebel to remain an enemy to his king. It would remove the consequences but overlook the cause, and this would leave an endless and hopeless task before us. It would stop the stream for a time, but leave an open fountain of defilement, which would sooner or later break forth with increased power. Remember that the Lord Jesus came to take away sin in three ways; He came to remove the penalty of sin, the power of sin, and, at last, the presence of sin. At once you may reach to the second part—the power of sin may immediately be broken; and so you will be on the road to the third, namely, the removal of the presence of sin. "We know that he was manifested to take away our sins."
The angel said of our Lord, "Thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins." Our Lord Jesus came to destroy in us the works of the devil. That which was said at our Lord's birth was also declared in His death; for when the soldier pierced His side forthwith came there out blood and water, to set forth the double cure by which we are delivered from the guilt and the defilement of sin.
If, however, you are troubled about the power of sin, and about the tendencies of your nature, as you well may be, here is a promise for you. Have faith in it, for it stands in that covenant of grace which is ordered in all things and sure. God, who cannot lie, has said in Ezekiel 36:26:
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
You see, it is all "I will," and "I will." "I will give," and "I will take away." This is the royal style of the King of kings, who is able to accomplish all His will. No word of His shall ever fall to the ground.
The Lord knows right well that you cannot change your own heart, and cannot cleanse your own nature; but He also knows that He can do both. He can cause the Ethiopian to change his skin, and the leopard his spots. Hear this, and be astonished: He can create you a second time; He can cause you to be born again. This is a miracle of grace, but the Holy Ghost will perform it. It would be a very wonderful thing if one could stand at the foot of the Niagara Falls, and could speak a word which should make the river Niagara begin to run up stream, and leap up that great precipice over which it now rolls in stupendous force. Nothing but the power of God could achieve that marvel; but that would be more than a fit parallel to what would take place if the course of your nature were altogether reversed. All things are possible with God. He can reverse the direction of your desires and the current of your life, and instead of going downward from God, He can make your whole being tend upward toward God. That is, in fact, what the Lord has promised to do for all who are in the covenant; and we know from Scripture that all believers are in the covenant. Let me read the words again:
A new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and will give an heart of flesh. (Ezekiel 11:19).
What a wonderful promise! And it is yea and amen in Christ Jesus to the glory of God by us. Let us lay hold of it; accept it as true, and appropriate it to ourselves. Then shall it be fulfilled in us, and we shall have, in after days and years, to sing of that wondrous change which the sovereign grace of God has wrought in us.
It is well worthy of consideration that when the Lord takes away the stony heart, that deed is done; and when that is once done, no known power can ever take away that new heart which He gives, and that right spirit which He puts within us. "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance "; that is, without repentance on His part; He does not take away what He once has given. Let Him renew you and you will be renewed. Man's reformations and cleanings up soon come to an end, for the dog returns to his vomit; but when God puts a new heart into us, the new heart is there forever, and never will it harden into stone again. He who made it flesh will keep it so. Herein we may rejoice and be glad forever in that which God creates in the kingdom of His grace.
To put the matter very simply—did you ever hear of Mr. Rowland Hill's illustration of the cat and the sow? I will give it in my own fashion, to illustrate our Saviour's expressive words—"Ye must be born again. " Do you see that cat? What a cleanly creature she is! How cleverly she washes herself with her tongue and her paws! It is quite a pretty sight! Did you ever see a sow do that? No, you never did. It is contrary to its nature. It prefers to wallow in the mire. Go and teach a sow to wash itself, and see how little success you would gain. It would be a great sanitary improvement if swine would be clean. Teach them to wash and clean themselves as the cat has been doing! Useless task. You may by force wash that sow, but it hastens to the mire, and is soon as foul as ever. The only way in which you can get a sow to wash itself is to transform it into a cat; then it will wash and be clean, but not till then! Suppose that transformation to be accomplished, and then what was difficult or impossible is easy enough; the swine will henceforth be fit for your parlor and your hearth-rug. So it is with an ungodly man; you cannot force him to do what a renewed man does most willingly; you may teach him, and set him a good example, but he cannot learn the art of holiness, for he has no mind to it; his nature leads him another way. When the Lord makes a new man of him, then all things wear a different aspect. So great is this change, that I once heard a convert say, "Either all the world is changed, or else I am." The new nature follows after right as naturally as the old nature wanders after wrong. What a blessing to receive such a nature! Only the Holy Ghost can give it.
Did it ever strike you what a wonderful thing it is for the Lord to give a new heart and a right spirit to a man? You have seen a lobster, perhaps, which has fought with another lobster, and lost one of its claws, and a new claw has grown. That is a remarkable thing; but it is a much more astounding fact that a man should have a new heart given to him. This, indeed, is a miracle beyond the powers of nature. There is a tree. If you cut off one of its limbs, another one may grow in its place; but can you change the tree; can you sweeten sour sap; can you make the thorn bear figs? You can graft something better into it and that is the analogy which nature gives us of the work of grace; but absolutely to change the vital sap of the tree would be a miracle indeed. Such a prodigy and mystery of power God works in all who believe in Jesus.
If you yield yourself up to His divine working, the Lord will alter your nature; He will subdue the old nature, and breathe new life into you. Put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, and He will take the stony heart out of your flesh, and He will give you a heart of flesh. Where everything was hard, everything shall be tender; where everything was vicious, everything shall be virtuous: where everything tended downward, everything shall rise upward with impetuous force. The lion of anger shall give place to the lamb of meekness; the raven of uncleanness shall fly before the dove of purity; the vile serpent of deceit shall be trodden under the heel of truth.
I have seen with my own eyes such marvellous changes of moral and spiritual character that I despair of none. I could, if it were fitting, point out those who were once unchaste women who are now pure as the driven snow, and blaspheming men who now delight all around them by their intense devotion. Thieves are made honest, drunkards sober, liars truthful, and scoffers zealous. Wherever the grace of God has appeared to a man it has trained him to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present evil world: and, dear reader, it will do the same for you.
"I cannot make this change," says one. Who said you could? The Scripture which we have quoted speaks not of what man will do, but of what God will do. It is God's promise, and it is for Him to fulfill His own engagements. Trust in Him to fulfill His Word to you, and it will be done.
"But how is it to be done?" What business is that of yours? Must the Lord explain His methods before you will believe him? The Lord's working in this matter is a great mystery: the Holy Ghost performs it. He who made the promise has the responsibility of keeping the promise, and He is equal to the occasion. God, who promises this marvellous change, will assuredly carry it out in all who receive Jesus, for to all such He gives power to become the Sons of God. Oh that you would believe it! Oh that you would do the gracious Lord the justice to believe that He can and will do this for you, great miracle though it will be! Oh that you would believe that God cannot lie! Oh that you would trust Him for a new heart, and a right spirit, for He can give them to you! May the Lord give you faith in His promise, faith in His Son, faith in the Holy Spirit, and faith in Him, and to Him shall be praise and honor and glory forever and ever! Amen.
If we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is NOT IN US. <---John was inspired....Spurgeon was not!
 

Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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If we say that we have no sin we are deceived and the truth is NOT IN US. <---John was inspired....Spurgeon was not!
OK DCONT - let's play a game. You answer the following questions below:

1) Whats the difference between a person who believes in Jesus Christ and one who doesn't in terms of salvation?
2) What evidence is there, in terms of works, between a believer and an unbeliever?
3) If a believer habitually sins, without repenting of these sins, will this person go to heaven?
 
Dec 12, 2013
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OK DCONT - let's play a game. You answer the following questions below:

1) Whats the difference between a person who believes in Jesus Christ and one who doesn't in terms of salvation?
2) What evidence is there, in terms of works, between a believer and an unbeliever?
3) If a believer habitually sins, without repenting of these sins, will this person go to heaven?
A game you say.....hilarious....have you ever heard....do not play another man's game.....I am sure you have some flippant answers to try and get one over on me.....

1. Are you serious...
2. Was David a believer when he Killed Uriah and took Bathsheba?
3. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world....SIN is not the issue...FAITH IS

Believer's produce 2 types of works...gold, silver and precious stones....as well as wood, hay and stubble...HOW would you distinguish between the two types of works...summarize for me....
 

Chris1975

Senior Member
Apr 27, 2017
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A game you say.....hilarious....have you ever heard....do not play another man's game.....I am sure you have some flippant answers to try and get one over on me.....

1. Are you serious...
2. Was David a believer when he Killed Uriah and took Bathsheba?
3. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world....SIN is not the issue...FAITH IS

Believer's produce 2 types of works...gold, silver and precious stones....as well as wood, hay and stubble...HOW would you distinguish between the two types of works...summarize for me....
You haven't answered the questions.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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You haven't answered the questions.
Sure I did...you just don't like my answers.....

a. Salvation
b. Believer's produce 2 types of works...gold, silver and precious stones....as well as wood, hay and stubble...HOW would you distinguish between the two types of works...summarize for me....
c. No one is promoting habitual sin and or a lifestyle of sin....take time to read the responses....your question is moot and based upon the normal rigmarole of those who try to say they are sinless
 

Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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Sure I did...you just don't like my answers.....

a. Salvation
b. Believer's produce 2 types of works...gold, silver and precious stones....as well as wood, hay and stubble...HOW would you distinguish between the two types of works...summarize for me....
c. No one is promoting habitual sin and or a lifestyle of sin....take time to read the responses....your question is moot and based upon the normal rigmarole of those who try to say they are sinless
You have only answered the first question. Which is correct by the way. You haven't answered the next two. In the second question, I asked the difference between a believer and an unbeliever. You have answered with two types of works by a believer. In the third question a simple yes or no answer will suffice.
 
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You have only answered the first question. Which is correct by the way. You haven't answered the next two. In the second question, I asked the difference between a believer and an unbeliever. You have answered with two types of works by a believer. In the third question a simple yes or no answer will suffice.
I did answer and you fail to understand....I am proving the error of your premise and application of hard cut rules....

Believers can and will produce works that can be both spiritual (gold, silver and precious stones) as well as works that are worldly and that lack faith (wood, hay and stubble)

A saved child of God will not live a continual lifestyle of sin, that does not change the fact of their eternal destiny....saved is saved end of story....WHERE sin abounds...GRACE did much more abound...

What is you point...believers sin...end of story....this does not say they live a lifestyle of sin and or live like the devil....
 

Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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[h=1]Hebrews 10:26-29New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [h=3]The Just Live by Faith[/h][SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [SUP]27 [/SUP]but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Mr DCONT, explain who the writer of Hebrews is talking to here. Is he talking to a believer or an unbeliever?
 

Chris1975

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[SUP]Matthew 7
21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Once again, Jesus' words. Who are these who are calling Him "Lord". Are these professing Christians, or unbelievers? And by the actions they took (e.g. casting out demons) would you say that they were active in the church?
 
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Hebrews 10:26-29New King James Version (NKJV)

The Just Live by Faith

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [SUP]27 [/SUP]but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Mr DCONT, explain who the writer of Hebrews is talking to here. Is he talking to a believer or an unbeliever?
He is talking about those who willingly turn their back on the Lord's Assembly by forsaking it and counting the blood of Jesus a common ordinary base thing while trampling under foot the Son of God.....JEWS who wanted to go back under the LAW....

if one forsakes and never returns JOHN states they were NEVER of us to begin with......

Salvation is eternal, cannot be lost and or maintained by works........so....JESUS through PAUL said NOTHING can separate us from the LOVE OF GOD.....end of story!
 
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[SUP]Matthew 7
21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. [SUP]22 [/SUP]Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ [SUP]23 [/SUP]And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Once again, Jesus' words. Who are these who are calling Him "Lord". Are these professing Christians, or unbelievers? And by the actions they took (e.g. casting out demons) would you say that they were active in the church?
Those who tried a different door than faith alone...Galatians 1 and 3

FAITH plus works for salvation= a gospel of a different kind, no power to save and double cursed.....

Just because someone claims to know Jesus does not mean they know Jesus
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Hebrews 10:26 can be a stumbling block if we don't take the context in which this passage was written.

Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the book of Hebrews.

Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33.
Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.

Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.

Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.

Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.

The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.

This is insulting the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict/convince/expose the world of their sin - which is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9

There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.
 

Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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Those who tried a different door than faith alone...Galatians 1 and 3

FAITH plus works for salvation= a gospel of a different kind, no power to save and double cursed.....

Just because someone claims to know Jesus does not mean they know Jesus
There is salvation by Faith alone. We agree on this. However if this faith doesn't result in Godly works (as an evidence of this faith), then its not true faith. James makes this clear. So to summarise: Faith = salvation. Faith without works = no salvation (as its not genuine faith).

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

I have highlighted an important piece of the Matt 7v21 scripture for you.

How does Jesus judge his church? By their works.

Evidence can be seen as follows:

Rev 2v2
Rev 2v9
Rev 2v13
Rev 2v19
Rev 3v1
Rev 3v8
Rev 3v15

as an example.

Faith without works is dead. And this faith will not save you.
 
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Notice that in Matt 7:19-33..Jesus said:

"I never knew you "...these people were not believers...

( Jesus never said " I used to know you once.". He said I NEVER knew you at all...).

Everyone when they see Jesus will call Him Lord.....because He is Lord and will be for eternity.

Jesus said that He "knows" His sheep so those in Matt. 7:19-33 are not true Christians.

John 10:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP]I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.


Jesus did the "will of God"...and delivered us from this present evil world

Galatians 1:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4[/SUP] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:


It is God in us that gives us the will and the ability to do His will.

Philippians 2:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13[/SUP] for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

The Will of the Father is to believe on Jesus.

1 John 3:23-24 (NASB)

[SUP]23[/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

[SUP]24[/SUP] The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

The good works we do are from "being in Christ"..being led by the Holy Spirit. Notice God has prepared them for us. We walk them out as we live our lives dependent on Him. It is His fruit that bears in and through us.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8[/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9[/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast
.

[SUP]10[/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.