Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[Chris1975]

Do you see what I see?

This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

[h=3]Apostates Depraved and Doomed[/h]Jude
[SUP]12 [/SUP]These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[SUP][c][/SUP] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


Twice Dead - means dead in sin (once dead); born again (alive); apostate/falling away (twice dead).
For them is reserves the blackness of darkness forever.

So it's not complicated. Read Hebrews 6v4-6 just like it is. No need to get creative. It is exactly what it says.

Here it is again:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]if they fall away,[SUP][b][/SUP] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

 

[Grace777x70]

In context we can see that Jude is not describing believers here - he is describing those that are devoid of the Spirit. Believers have the Holy Spirit forever in them - Jesus said. John 14:16

These are "hidden reefs" in amongst us - but they are not "Of" us.

Jude 1:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;



Jude 1:17-19 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,

[SUP]18 [/SUP] that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."

[SUP]19 [/SUP] These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

 

[Chris1975]

In context we can see that Jude is not describing believers here - he is describing those that are devoid of the Spirit. Believers have the Holy Spirit forever in them - Jesus said. John 14:16

These are "hidden reefs" in amongst us - but they are not "Of" us.

How can an unbeliever be twice dead?

 

[Chris1975]

Do you see what I see?

This is one of those scriptures that's not as it appears at first glance. It may seem as if it's suggesting that one loses their salvation, but it's not. If you take a really close look at it, it's actually confirming the security of a believer .........


Christ's ONE sacrifice is sufficient to cleanse us of ALL unrighteousness. We are born of the spirit ONE time, not multiple times.

This scripture is showing how impossible it is to be saved, then unsaved, then saved again.... because that ONE sacrifice was sufficient to cleanse us the first time!! So to suggest our salvation can be "undone" would be putting Christ to open shame, suggesting that His sacrifice was not sufficient!!! So in other words, "crucifying him afresh" each time by suggesting that He was not able to save us completely the first time, that He must be crucified a second and third time.

It's impossible to renew them again (because we were already renewed) so how can it possibly happen again, because salvation happens ONE time. It cannot happen a second time. Christ was crucified ONCE and it was sufficient.

This is confirming the security of the believer, not suggesting that salvation is undone in any way!

Lets look at the below verse CAREFULLY.

[h=1]1 Timothy 4New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [h=3]The Great Apostasy[/h]4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,


a) They were in the faith
b) Those "in the faith" are saved/justified
c) Then they gave heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines
d) Then they depart from the faith.
e) Without faith it is impossible to please God. Without faith it is impossible to be saved.

Here is an example of people (real people, because it will happen in the latter days, and God says so) - who lose their salvation.

Now read Hebrews 6v4-6 again.

 

[Grace777x70]

Lets look at the below verse CAREFULLY.

1 Timothy 4New King James Version (NKJV)

The Great Apostasy

4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,


a) They were in the faith
b) Those "in the faith" are saved/justified
c) Then they gave heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines
d) Then they depart from the faith.
e) Without faith it is impossible to please God. Without faith it is impossible to be saved.

Here is an example of people (real people, because it will happen in the latter days, and God says so) - who lose their salvation.

Now read Hebrews 6v4-6 again.

Ok..let's look at it "in context". BTW - latter times started when the Holy spirit was given on the day of Pentecost. We have been in the last days since then.



The famous scripture that is used from those believe we lose salvation is 1 Tim. 4:1 - but let's look and see what it is really saying "in context".

They usually love to just quote the part about seducing spirits and doctrines of devils ( which they usually apply to something they don't believe in but some one else might ).

Let's see what Paul was actually saying "departing from the faith actually is".

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai - this is the word - apostasy ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.

verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort when we are to believe on Christ's work on the cross and resurrection for all things.

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we see that the word "apostasy" is not what some try to make it into. There are many warnings in scripture about living your own ways and thoughts contrary to God such as depending on the flesh for life instead of walking by the spirit and they should be heeded if you want His life to be manifested in us.

Let's build believers up in Christ and feed them the proper nutrients of proclaiming the love and grace of our Lord for them and these will give them the proper foundation in Christ and then the warnings will be applied in context of Christ's finished work on the cross and not on a works-based, fear-based belief system which only nullifies the very grace of God needed for us to live in this earth.

 

[Chris1975]

Ok..let's look at it "in context". BTW - latter times started when the Holy spirit was given on the day of Pentecost. We have been in the last days since then. <and how do you come to this conclusion? This is Paul's letter to Timothy, written many, many years after the day of Pentecost>



The famous scripture that is used from those believe we lose salvation is 1 Tim. 4:1 - but let's look and see what it is really saying "in context". <I love this in context defense. Whenever things get a little obvious, it then needs to be corrected for context. So let's look at your context below. Let's see if we can make the "leap".>

They usually love to just quote the part about seducing spirits and doctrines of devils ( which they usually apply to something they don't believe in but some one else might ).

Let's see what Paul was actually saying "departing from the faith actually is".

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai - this is the word - apostasy ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, <you haven't addressed this point. They were in the faith, then were misled by deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons>

[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, <NKJV [SUP]2 [/SUP]speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,> You haven't addressed this point.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5. <what about the first two you have ignored?>

Faith is what you believe in. They WERE in the faith. Then deceived (by whatever means, whether man-made religious works etc, etc. Take your pick from the examples used). Then they fell away. From the faith. Once believed - now no longer believe. Apostasy. Falling away. There can be no confusion in this. You may say to me ---- they were NEVER in the faith. But then that's YOU saying that. The bible is very plain. They fell away from the Faith. You can put up any amount of flags you want saying "look here, look here, look at the works based etc etc". The bottom line is. They fell away from the faith. And the end of someone who falls away from the faith (should they not repent and turn back), is Hebrews 6v4-6.

verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort when we are to believe on Christ's work on the cross and resurrection for all things. <they still fell away from the faith. OSAS is history>.

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life. <and the evidence is obedience, repentance, etc. If you love Me you will obey me. I wonder why so many here are scared of this change? Scared of the path of holy living? God seeks righteousness. Yes righteousness comes from Christ. But we live it out. Day by day. Why are you scared of the pursuit of holiness/sanctification? That the REAL CHANGE God wants from us.>

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ. <Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. To those who OVERCOME....>

So we see that the word "apostasy" is not what some try to make it into. There are many warnings in scripture about living your own ways and thoughts contrary to God such as depending on the flesh for life instead of walking by the spirit and they should be heeded if you want His life to be manifested in us. <how do you get to this conclusion? We are talking about the topic of falling away here (look at the OP's initial thread). You are talking about every other detail OTHER THAN addressing the fact that people can fall away from the faith - which is what the bible makes abundantly clear from the passage (irrespective of how they fell away - they fell away>

Let's build believers up in Christ and feed them the proper nutrients of proclaiming the love and grace of our Lord for them and these will give them the proper foundation in Christ and then the warnings will be applied in context of Christ's finished work on the cross and not on a works-based, fear-based belief system which only nullifies the very grace of God needed for us to live in this earth. <No problem with this statement at all>

As per the above.

 

[PeterJens]

Hey guys, if you want to listen to g7, the false teacher be my guest.
He just slags off other believers and teaches his context and interpretations of scripture.

Just get a good commentary, and go through the verses in their context as written and you
will see the difference and the spin he wants to put on everything.

And however he is confronted, he is always right and everyone else in the faith is evil
and wrong, full of hatred against the truth that only his group possess, lol.

 

[Chris1975]

[SUP]2 Peter 2

20 [/SUP]For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[SUP][e][/SUP] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

More examples of the Hebrews 6v4-6 corroboration with other scriptures.

A falling away is a very real risk. It is based on not having a true love for Jesus. For if you love Him you will Obey Him. And His commandments are not burdensome. Yet, because of a false sense of security, and a sense that holiness is "optional" the believer becomes dulled to the gravity of sin, and what it cost the Father to give up His Son for us, and the cost Jesus paid for on the cross. And this laxadaisical attitude to sin becomes a bigger and bigger factor. The believer is no longer living in victory. They become hard of hearing. And a point is reached where the Spirit is quenched (1 Thess 5v19). At this point, the compass no longer shows a true north. The voice of God has become dulled to this believer.

And they fall away. Hebrews 6v4-6

The judgement on that day by God will be a righteous judgement.

 

[Chris1975]

Hey guys, if you want to listen to g7, the false teacher be my guest.
He just slags off other believers and teaches his context and interpretations of scripture.

Just get a good commentary, and go through the verses in their context as written and you
will see the difference and the spin he wants to put on everything.

And however he is confronted, he is always right and everyone else in the faith is evil
and wrong, full of hatred against the truth that only his group possess, lol.

Peter, I think there are those here who are simply copy/pasting from a Doctrinal website/document. I suspect a doctrine has been developed somewhere and many here are 'copy/pasting'. They have settled it in their hearts now that this document is the truth. As opposed to looking at the bible. Verse by verse. Having a dialogue on what the scriptures plainly say. They need 'teachers' to interpret for them. This I can confirm is very much alive here.

So we end up arguing - bible truth against doctrines of men.

Of course - we are all in the same boat. Thinking WE have the truth. None willing to yield or give ground. You would think however that returning to the scriptures, prayerfully, should resolve these things. But pride is very much active. God gives grace to the humble. Maybe that should be the prayer of those here. God help us all. For only His Wisdom is what we want. May God root out all those who are actively (purposefully) deceiving from those who have simply believed a lie.

 

[PeterJens]

Peter, I think there are those here who are simply copy/pasting from a Doctrinal website/document. I suspect a doctrine has been developed somewhere and many here are 'copy/pasting'. They have settled it in their hearts now that this document is the truth. As opposed to looking at the bible. Verse by verse. Having a dialogue on what the scriptures plainly say. They need 'teachers' to interpret for them. This I can confirm is very much alive here.

So we end up arguing - bible truth against doctrines of men.

Of course - we are all in the same boat. Thinking WE have the truth. None willing to yield or give ground. You would think however that returning to the scriptures, prayerfully, should resolve these things. But pride is very much active. God gives grace to the humble. Maybe that should be the prayer of those here. God help us all. For only His Wisdom is what we want. May God root out all those who are actively (purposefully) deceiving from those who have simply believed a lie.

g7 is fairly unique. He spends days, months, years recruiting for his doctrinal heresies.
His copying and pasting is his compensating and saving time.

A phrase he came out with that shocked me was, "God what do you want me to believe today."

He no longer believes in consistency or real revelation through scripture, only his "lens" view
of everything. All other views are now seen as evil, and everything is interpreted only through
this lens. The opposition perspective he regards as "porn", and all opponents are hatefull evil
people. He has stated that religious practise is the worst evil in church history and he is
dedicated to removing it. What is surprising is the size of the group that follow this view within
the charismatic, revelation type fellowships. It is the fruit of a lot of their teaching and a resolution
to the tension between morality and emotional desire to sexual liasons.

It is now compromise and no judgementalism or calling sin sin, it is just acceptance and letting love
change the heart, and repression of anything "negative" which means failure through sin.

For me it is just apostacy, and saying nothing is really relevant, we are just saved by reaching out
to Christ, no matter how we behave.

 

[Chris1975]

g7 is fairly unique. He spends days, months, years recruiting for his doctrinal heresies.
His copying and pasting is his compensating and saving time.

A phrase he came out with that shocked me was, "God what do you want me to believe today."

He no longer believes in consistency or real revelation through scripture, only his "lens" view
of everything. All other views are now seen as evil, and everything is interpreted only through
this lens. The opposition perspective he regards as "porn", and all opponents are hatefull evil
people. He has stated that religious practise is the worst evil in church history and he is
dedicated to removing it. What is surprising is the size of the group that follow this view within
the charismatic, revelation type fellowships. It is the fruit of a lot of their teaching and a resolution
to the tension between morality and emotional desire to sexual liasons.

It is now compromise and no judgementalism or calling sin sin, it is just acceptance and letting love
change the heart, and repression of anything "negative" which means failure through sin.

For me it is just apostacy, and saying nothing is really relevant, we are just saved by reaching out
to Christ, no matter how we behave.

God is the same, yesterday, today, and forevermore. The Lord says He changes not.
The church would be wise not to misinterpret the gravity of sin.
It was an issue in the garden.
It was an Issue throughout Israel's walk with the Lord.
It was such an issue that God sent his only Son to DIE on a cross because of it.

Anyone thinking that there is a license to sin, or that there is no gravity attached to sin TODAY is sorely mistaken. Jesus paid the penalty for sin in order to restore us to the Father. What is our response to His Grace? Romans 6 through Romans 8.

 

[gb9]

Hey guys, if you want to listen to g7, the false teacher be my guest.
He just slags off other believers and teaches his context and interpretations of scripture.

Just get a good commentary, and go through the verses in their context as written and you
will see the difference and the spin he wants to put on everything.

And however he is confronted, he is always right and everyone else in the faith is evil
and wrong, full of hatred against the truth that only his group possess, lol.

just subtract g7 and insert peterjens, and this is dead on accurate.

 

[gb9]

God is the same, yesterday, today, and forevermore. The Lord says He changes not.
The church would be wise not to misinterpret the gravity of sin.
It was an issue in the garden.
It was an Issue throughout Israel's walk with the Lord.
It was such an issue that God sent his only Son to DIE on a cross because of it.

Anyone thinking that there is a license to sin, or that there is no gravity attached to sin TODAY is sorely mistaken. Jesus paid the penalty for sin in order to restore us to the Father. What is our response to His Grace? Romans 6 through Romans 8.

must be nice to be perfect and sinless, maybe one day, us reprobate who believe in God's grace through Christ, maybe we can be like you and peter j.

nah..........i'll just be honest and truthful, and strive not to sin, but understand I do.

 

[PeterJens]

just subtract g7 and insert peterjens, and this is dead on accurate.

Amen. I praise the Lord if people seek Him and His word and understanding, because
this is the way of the Lord. Thankyou for encouraging my point, because truly I could
be a false teacher until I am compared with the word of God.

 

[gb9]

Amen. I praise the Lord if people seek Him and His word and understanding, because
this is the way of the Lord. Thankyou for encouraging my point, because truly I could
be a false teacher until I am compared with the word of God.

no peter, I meant everything you falsely accused grace7 in post # 827 is true about you. you described yourself, not g7.

 

[PeterJens]

no peter, I meant everything you falsely accused grace7 in post # 827 is true about you. you described yourself, not g7.

lol. You know the whole point is which side of the fence you are on.
So you like Prince, Benny Hinn, Hagin etc. Well I know which school you
come from. And it is no shock you think I am wrong, I would be surprised
if it was otherwise. So why do you think I would be insulted, I am complemented,
not to be put alongside these false teachers. It just gets better the more you share,
thank you and God bless, Halleluyah, Amen.

 

[fredoheaven]

How can an unbeliever be twice dead?

I think of this one, unbeliever is already dead spiritually, then die later physically.

God bless

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I think of this one, unbeliever is already dead spiritually, then die later physically.

God bless

How about the second death of Rev 21:8?

 

[Chris1975]

I think of this one, unbeliever is already dead spiritually, then die later physically.

God bless

Let's look at the scripture again together:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[SUP][c][/SUP] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


So at this point (feasting with you), they are not physically dead. So twice dead means (Death in Adam / Rebirth in Christ / Rejection of Christ (twice dead))

 

[fredoheaven]

Apostates Depraved and Doomed

Jude
[SUP]12 [/SUP]These are spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried about[SUP][c][/SUP] by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; [SUP]13 [/SUP]raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.


Twice Dead - means dead in sin (once dead); born again (alive); apostate/falling away (twice dead).
For them is reserves the blackness of darkness forever.

So it's not complicated. Read Hebrews 6v4-6 just like it is. No need to get creative. It is exactly what it says.

Here it is again:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]if they fall away,[SUP][b][/SUP] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Very true, Hebrews 6 should not be complicated, "For it is impossible...to renew them again to repentance...," I think this could be a very proof text for security of the believers and not losing salvation. The passage put us into an "if" situation but as the writer of the Hebrews says, he knew beforehand that this would be impossible to renew unto repentance even to the point of "falling away" as some unbelieving who entered in and apostatized.

God bless