Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[Chris1975]

No. The OP is about whether a believer, after he/she is saved, can be "unsaved": It's the same thing. Falling away is to lose your salvation. Its a rejection of Christ.







I believe that when I was saved, I was born again of incorruptible seed (1 Peter 1:23). That's the new birth where the Spirit within you comes alive. This is incorruptible. The person is made up of Body, Soul, Spirit. The Spirit is incorruptible. The Body is total corruption. The Soul is left with a CHOICE. To serve the Spirit, or to serve the Flesh. See Romans 8. The SOUL that sins shall die. Its for our Souls that Jesus died on the cross. The SOUL (inner man) has to decide whom it will serve.

The incorruptible seed is incorruptible. But you are not understanding that scripture.

Incorruptible = aphthartou which means uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable.

I do not believe a born again believer can fall away to the point you describe in the pages of this thread.

As above....

 

[Grace777x70]

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Works-based believers see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity. ( and we should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures )

This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness and being joined as one spirit with the Lord. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.

We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!"

The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.

As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6

His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".

 

[mailmandan]

Not unbelievers. It says they are twice dead.

A tree being dead to the core as such a tree was utterly incapable of producing good fruit then being uprooted is twice dead. The NAS says "doubly dead."

*Notice in Jude 12 that these trees will be "uprooted."

*Notice in Matthew 15:13, Jesus said - Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be "uprooted."

Jude further describes these ungodly men as ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit (vs. 19) *In CONTRAST to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ (vs. 1).

 

[Chris1975]

Because some have not yet come to faith (and some are new believers). Nowhere does it say that.

Believers who speak out against those described in vs 4 help the new believers and those who have yet to come to faith.

as above....

 

[Chris1975]

We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.

Works-based believers see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity. ( and we should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures )

This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".

1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.

Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.

Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness and being joined as one spirit with the Lord. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.

I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."

There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.

The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.

Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.

The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.

We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.

Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.

If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".

There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.

Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.

Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.

We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.

We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!"

The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.

As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6

His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".

Are you copy /pasting from a booklet you were given? A doctrine which was handed to you?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

No. The OP is about whether a believer, after he/she is saved, can be "unsaved": It's the same thing. Falling away is to lose your salvation. Its a rejection of Christ.

What happens to the person who is born again and (according to you) loses his/her salvation, then decides he/she wants to come back to Christ? Does that person get born again a second time?

 

[Roughsoul1991]

20 But you, dear friends, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.[f]


24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Basically as in verses 20 and 21 remain in faith which keeps you in Gods love.

Remaining in full surrender to God and reliance on God, God is able to keep this kind of disciple from falling. As we wait for the very mercy of God he has prepared for us.

Jude
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Jude is a whole letter of warning to believers about evil sneaky unbelievers who has slipped in to steer people away from the true gospel. And it must of been working for Jude to change why he was going to write to them.

The verses above are warnings to believers that you can believe God and follow God but even the angels had a choice to continue in following or rebel. Just as the Israelites saw and believed all of Gods miracles, the devil still slipped his way in.

 

[Chris1975]

Jude
5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[c] at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Jude is a whole letter of warning to believers about evil sneaky unbelievers who has slipped in to steer people away from the true gospel. And it must of been working for Jude to change why he was going to write to them.

The verses above are warnings to believers that you can believe God and follow God but even the angels had a choice to continue in following or rebel. Just as the Israelites saw and believed all of Gods miracles, the devil still slipped his way in.

And even believers can fall away. As can be seen below:

The Just Live by Faith

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [SUP]27 [/SUP]but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SUP]29[/SUP]Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? [SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[SUP][e][/SUP] says the Lord.[SUP][f][/SUP] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[SUP][g][/SUP] [SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


T-H-E-S-E W-E-R-E B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S

 

[Grace777x70]

Are you copy /pasting from a booklet you were given? A doctrine which was handed to you?

I wrote it out myself but I saved it so that I wouldn't have to do it all again. I tweak it from time to time as the Holy Spirit shows me new facets of His love and grace in the glorious gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

And even believers can fall away. As can be seen below:

[h=3]The Just Live by Faith[/h][SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [SUP]27 [/SUP]but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SUP]29[/SUP]Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? [SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[SUP][e][/SUP] says the Lord.[SUP][f][/SUP] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[SUP][g][/SUP] [SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


T-H-E-S-E W-E-R-E B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S

Agreed. Half of the new testiment is letters of warnings and encouragement.
.it would be redundant for God to inspire the authors to warn believers if they had nothing to worry about

 

[Chris1975]

For the Once-Saved-Always-Saved believers, the above verses present a real conundrum. How can we "spin" this so that it doesn't mean what it says. OK, so somehow we have to come up with a way that its "just the knowledge of the truth" and not a real conversion. Then you see later in the verses, that this person was previously "Sanctified". Now how does an unbeliever become sanctified. What creative way can we come up with to explain this away?

Instead of simply ----- taking the Word of God at face value.

If you don't understand, then ASK GOD for understanding.

Don't let PRIDE hold you back from where God wants to take you.

In Jesus Name.

 

[Grace777x70]

Hebrews 10:26 can be a stumbling block if we don't take the context in which this passage was written.

Some times well intentioned people take Hebrews 10:26-29 out of context with the book of Hebrews.

Anyone can take an isolated scripture out of it's context and say anything they want. Here is an example in the scripture below - Ex 32:33. Anyone who has ever sinned is blotted out of God's book.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

This is truly stated in the OT but it is not the ultimate statement of truth. The work of Jesus's finished work on the cross trumps what is said in Ex. 32:33.

Obviously we need to view all scripture through the finished work of Christ. We don't take obscure verses and discount the abundance of clear scriptures on what our Lord has done for us.

Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.

Hebrews was written a few years before the temple system came crashing down in 70AD when it was trampled by the Roman army.

The "willful sinning" is after hearing the "knowledge" of the truth of Christ's sacrifice - those that go back to the temple sacrifices and do not receive Christ's work by faith - this is the wilful sinning being talked about - the rejection of Christ's sacrifice and blood for the forgiveness of all sins.

This is insulting the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit's work is to convict/convince/expose the world of their sin - which is unbelief in Christ's work. John 16:8-9

There is a vast difference between receiving the "knowledge" of the truth and "receiving the truth" which is Christ Himself.

 

[Chris1975]

Agreed. Half of the new testiment is letters of warnings and encouragement.
.it would be redundant for God to inspire the authors to warn believers if they had nothing to worry about

Amen. Wouldn't it be beautiful, if those who had a need to doggedly hold onto dogma, were to just pray tonight and ask God to show them the truth. To remove the strongholds that the enemy has built up around their minds to keep them from the truth.

These are beautiful people who have passion for God. How to get through....

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I will say most of Jude is talking about evil unbelievers who slipped in by satin.

But Jude is warning these believers of these people to try and keep them from following a false gospel.

What we dont know is if these unbelievers were once believers who apostatized in their heart and satin is using them like spies within the church.

 

[mailmandan]

And even believers can fall away. As can be seen below:

The Just Live by Faith

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [SUP]27 [/SUP]but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SUP]29[/SUP]Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? [SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[SUP][e][/SUP] says the Lord.[SUP][f][/SUP] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[SUP][g][/SUP] [SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

T-H-E-S-E W-E-R-E B-E-L-I-E-V-E-R-S

In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in v. 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture.

In verse 39, the author sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, but who has subsequently committed apostasy by renouncing his identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself. Such a person’s apostasy is thus evidence that his identification with the Christian community was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

 

[Chris1975]

Hebrews 10 is talking about Jewish people after hearing about Christ for the only sacrifice for sins and rejecting it to go back to the temple sacrifices for their sins.

The statement above is incorrect. Read what it says in the scriptures.

counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

Do you see it. The people in this verse became believers. They were sanctified by the blood of Jesus. And THEN counted it common and insulted the Spirit of Grace. Sanctification HAPPENED to THEM. THEN they fell away.

This doesn't corroborate one bit with the above statement.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Amen. Wouldn't it be beautiful, if those who had a need to doggedly hold onto dogma, were to just pray tonight and ask God to show them the truth. To remove the strongholds that the enemy has built up around their minds to keep them from the truth.

These are beautiful people who have passion for God. How to get through....

It would give me less headaches lol. But God created us to have our own mind and thoughts.

Without mental differences many things in life would of not been created. Or many thoughts would of not enlightened the hearts of others.

Just like Martin Luther King had a whole different vision that enlightened so many people. But yet they still had white church goers reading the bible and totaly blinded by some scripture.

One day any day we all will have the blindness lifted and be enlightened to something deeper in scripture.

 

[Chris1975]

The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in v. 29 seems to be referring to a Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is a term often applied to Christians; is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians and sinful things without experiencing salvation as Paul clearly explained. So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant saved, then you would have to say that the Sabbath was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 10:3), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that just do not line up with scripture.

Sanctified by the blood of Jesus....seems a highly unlikely stretch of the imagination to ever come to the conclusion that this was an unbeliever. Be honest with yourself.

Then this same person insulting the Spirit of Grace? An Unbeliever? An unregenerated person insulting the Spirit of Grace? Be honest with yourself.

Guys, its time to move on from milk to solid food. That starts with being honest with yourselves on this.

Hold onto dogma's created by man? Or look at the plain word of scripture.

We are all here not playing games. We want to get to the truth. Its in the interests of all in this community that we grow up into Christ. If your dogma needs a rethink - then do so. Pride holds a person back.

SO WHAT if you have defended these points your whole life? If you are presented with evidence that something was incorrect in your thinking, then humble yourselves. Pray to God. He will tell you whether you are right, or I am right on this.

Do so tonight.

P.S. not trying to be arrogant here. Let's just get real with one another.

 

[Chris1975]

I'm off to bed....3am here Chat tomorrow. God bless you all. I mean that.

 

[Grace777x70]

For the Once-Saved-Always-Saved believers, the above verses present a real conundrum. How can we "spin" this so that it doesn't mean what it says. OK, so somehow we have to come up with a way that its "just the knowledge of the truth" and not a real conversion. Then you see later in the verses, that this person was previously "Sanctified". Now how does an unbeliever become sanctified. What creative way can we come up with to explain this away?

Instead of simply ----- taking the Word of God at face value.

If you don't understand, then ASK GOD for understanding.

Don't let PRIDE hold you back from where God wants to take you.

In Jesus Name.

The word "sanctified" means "set apart". All people in the world have been "sanctified" as in "set apart" for the gospel. That is what Hebrews 10:29 means., If these Jewish people sin wilfully by rejecting Christ's sacrifice for sins they are insulting the Spirit of grace and counting he blood as a common thing by which he has been sanctified ( set apart).


Jesus blood is what cleanses us and the Lamb of God has taken away the sin of the world but people must believe and receive this truth. So, all people are "sanctified" ( set apart ) for receiving the gospel message of Christ's work on the cross.

Unbelievers that are spouses are sanctified by the believing spouse.

1 Corinthians 7:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.