Future sin forgiven the cross you are free, maybe

[mailmandan]

That's what satan is teaching thru his false TV preachers in his never ending capaign of deception!

I see that you have your own never ending campaign of deception! Why don't you show me just ONE verse in the Bible that specifically says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." Good luck with that.

John 15:1-15

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that bears not fruit he takes away: and every branch that bears fruit, he purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knows not what his lord does: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

I've already refuted your misinterpretation of multiple passages of scripture, but I have time for another one.

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

 

[preacher4truth]

I see that you have your own never ending campaign of deception! Why don't you show me just ONE verse in the Bible that specifically says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." Good luck with that.

I've already refuted your misinterpretation of multiple passages of scripture, but I have time for another one.

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

Glad to see you're relentless MMD! Maybe it's the Andy's.

 

[Rockrz]

Why don't you show me just ONE verse in the Bible that specifically says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." Good luck with that

You obviously don't know what God did when He created man and you obviously don't know how His Kingdom functions... you are a cherry picker buddy, pickin and choosing which New Testament verses you accept and deny as you reject the whole council of God.

I've already refuted...

You refuted squat! One of the signs of the end times is some will deny (contridict) the Lord, and you be one of 'em

Speaking of John 15... did'cha notice Jesus said "those IN ME that bare no fruit the Father takes away"???

That's speaking about those who get born again and have been translated from darkness into the Kingdom of God's dear Son and not sinners who were never IN HIM to began with.

Yo bud'ro... you gots lots to learn and rejecting portions of God's Word ain't the way to do it.

Go argue with Jesus!

Glad to see you're relentless MMD!

Don't they have penicillin for that now

 

[PeterJens]

There is one truth, if you have a real relationship with Christ you know you could loose it,
but your heart desires that you stay as close as you can to your Lord.

There are many who take their marriage for granted until they get divorce papers.
And what will people say to the Lord. I did what everyone else was doing.
You did say believe and I would be saved. I did once, for a short while, that must have
meant something.

It is like someone booking to see a surgeon for an operation and never turning up, and
then claiming when they are about to die of the deadly disease, I did have the operation
booked. It is irrelevant. Get cured or die.

Those who are not cured want a guarantee they did all they could, but the deal was
acknowledge your failure and you receive everything. Sure, most lottery ticket holders
win. Either get right with God or He will get right with you.

 

[mailmandan]

You obviously don't know what God did when He created man and you obviously don't know how His Kingdom functions... you are a cherry picker buddy, pickin and choosing which New Testament verses you accept and deny as you reject the whole council of God.

In other words, you CAN'T show me just ONE verse in the Bible that specifically says a really "saved" person really "lost their salvation." It's you who cherry picks verses, ignores the context of these verses, and fails to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

You refuted squat!

The sword of the Spirit hurts when it cuts!

One of the signs of the end times is some will deny (contridict) the Lord, and you be one of 'em

You need to take a good hard look in the mirror.

Speaking of John 15... did'cha notice Jesus said "those IN ME that bare no fruit the Father takes away"???

Once again, *please pay close attention this time* - John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off. You need to rightly divide the word of truth son.

That's speaking about those who get born again and have been translated from darkness into the Kingdom of God's dear Son and not sinners who were never IN HIM to began with.

False. Let's go over this again son. In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached (like Judas Iscariot), He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off, unlike the remaining 11 disciples who had a spiritual and vital connection with the vine.

Yo bud'ro... you gots lots to learn and rejecting portions of God's Word ain't the way to do it.

Go argue with Jesus!

It's actually you who has a lot to learn son and it's you who rejects portions of God's Word and ends up arguing with Jesus for the sake of your biased doctrine.

 

[Grace777x70]

John 15 is all about bearing fruit. We don't produce or manufacture fruit as a branch - we bear His fruit.

The other aspect to this Vine and branch thing is that all the world was included in Christ's death on the cross. We can see this with the 2 thieves who were crucified "with" Him. One believed and the didn't.

Salvation is available to all people as they are included in Christ's work on the cross now but they must "receive" the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness to stay in the Vine. This is how they abide/remain/stay in Christ. These are the ones that bear the fruit of His life manifesting in them.

Col. 1:20 says that God reconciled all things to Himself through the blood of His cross.

There are also other ways to view John 15 including the fact that all people have been included in Christ's work on the cross. Those that receive Christ "remain/stay/abide" in Christ. He then bears His fruit in and through our lives by His life in us being manifested to a hurt and dying world.

Works-based salvation is not the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ no matter how much we try to pervert it to try to keep ourselves saved.

 

[PeterJens]

All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2 They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.
John 16:1-3

Jesus is warning the disciples that He knows there is a temptation to fall away, but He
is sharing what the future has in store, even though it is very hard, He will be there with
them.

With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you.
They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer, who loved the wages of wickedness.
2 Peter 2:1,14-15

So I counsel younger widows to marry, to have children, to manage their homes and to give the enemy no opportunity for slander. 15 Some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan.
1 Tim 5:14-15

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
2 tim 4:7

By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
1 Cor 15:2

Paul is saying you can be saved, if you hold firmly to the word.
If you loose the word, you have believed in vain, ie it is pointless.


if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us
2 Tim 2:12

 

[Grace777x70]

If people deny/reject Christ's sacrifice for sins in their unbelief in Him - He will reject them too. There remains no more sacrifice for sins other then through the blood of Jesus. Heb. 10:26

2 Timothy 2:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

 

[PeterJens]

Free from sin

I am pure, I have done no wrong; I am clean and free from sin.
Job 33:9

Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
Acts 13:39

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:18

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
Rom 6:22

But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:57

 

[Johnny_B]

I think when people proclaim new theology, you always need to look at in
the context of when people took theology a lot more seriously and looked
into all the questions you could think of and then some more.

Amen!!! "if it's new it's not true and if it's true it's not new"

 

[Rockrz]

It's actually you who has a lot to learn son and it's you who rejects portions of God's Word and ends up arguing with Jesus for the sake of your biased doctrine.

But, but... your ugly and yo momma dresses you funny!

John 15 is all about bearing fruit. We don't produce or manufacture fruit as a branch - we bear His fruit.

Yes... and Jesus specifically said those IN HIM that do not bare fruit are taken away

He also said not everyone that calls Him Lord would inherit the Kingdom which is obviously not talking about sinners out in the world who have never accepted Jesus nor called Him their Lord.

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen!!! "if it's new it's not true and if it's true it's not new"

That's not entirely accurate as a statement to stand on it's own without qualification.

When some people in the Catholic system back in the 1500's heard Luther say "The just shall live by faith". We are saved by grace not by works or indulgences. It was new to them and it was new truth to them too.

We will be learning new truths of the love and grace of God in Christ for all eternity. It will always be new to us but it has always been the truth - we just didn't know it yet.

Truth can always be new to us if we didn't know it in the first place.

 

[Rockrz]

We are saved by grace

That's a partial statement and as such is incorrect.

Why not say what God says in His Word... ???

You know, we are saved by grace thru... what?

 

[Grace777x70]

"The just shall live by faith". We are saved by grace not by works or indulgences.

 

[Ariel82]

That's a partial statement and as such is incorrect.

Why not say what God says in His Word... ???

You know, we are saved by grace thru... what?

We are saved by grace thru faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ who died upon the Cross for the remission of our ains. This allows us to become adopted children of God, lead by His Holy Spirit.

Bunch of verses combined but they are all in the Bible.

 

[PeterJens]

I saw this belief system in Islam.
There is no compulsion in religion. If you come to believe Muhammed, that is fine,
but if you disbelieve that is being a traitor so we can kill you. So once in never out.

Grace trap. Come to faith in Christ, saved forever, you neither choose it or can get out
of it, you are locked in. Even if you apostate you are doomed to go to heaven.
And if you do not believe this, you are in unbelief and and not a believer at all and can
be rejected as a legalist, or works salvationist.

If you get a bad conscience or feel condemnation for sin you are actually commiting,
that is satan denying you are a child of God, which you can rebuke. It is all forgiven
anyway so do not get distracted. Free will, love, a changed heart so you actually want
to know God and walk in His ways are irrelevant. Once in never out.

Sounds more like the faith of sin. Sin is never conquered, you are a slave to it for life,
and once bound, the closer you come to the faith, the more bound you feel and condemned
a failure, the more you know you need to be saved so it is really ok.

Now this junk sounds more like a person gets stuck in quick sand and before they finally die
the fact they are disappearing is proof it is actually true and they are actually about to be
saved, not.

How this came out of victory and love conquering sin, the enemy really has deluded and taken
over peoples lives with bitterness and hatred. I have zero sympathy for apostates, who reject
Christs words, change simple righteous loving meanings into evil and hatred, they can rot in
the hell of their own creating. Sounds like their continuous self condemnation and feeling lost
and alone is enough to drive me nuts and tell me it will fall under Gods judgement.

In their mind if they do not forgive others, it is fine for God to forgive them and feel they
are one with Him, when this is clearly not the case. How on earth a simple clear set of
statements and parables means God does not mean this, when forgiveness and reconciliation
is His heart, why would He have anything to do with sinners who have no interest in being
like Him. I am sure to the prophet who God told not to eat with others, believed the other
prophet who lied that God had changed His mind and it was ok. God does not change His
mind like this, His word is law, and you will die if you go against it no matter how many
nice prayers or religious stuff you have done.

Korahs rebellion, Ananisa and Saphira, the churches of revelations.

Get your heart right, seek repentance and knowing His face, and the truth will be
revealed. Compromise here and all will be lost.

 

[Rockrz]

We are saved by grace thru faith

Yes... and what did the Lord say about faith in the Book of James???

Faith without works is... what?

 

[mailmandan]

But, but... your ugly and yo momma dresses you funny!

What are you like 12 years old?

Yes... and Jesus specifically said those IN HIM that do not bare fruit are taken away

For the third time, In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established.

So in John 15, we see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit and the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached (like Judas Iscariot), He neither elected them, nor saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off, unlike the remaining 11 disciples who had a spiritual and vital connection with the vine.

He also said not everyone that calls Him Lord would inherit the Kingdom which is obviously not talking about sinners out in the world who have never accepted Jesus nor called Him their Lord.

False. Matthew 7:21 - Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. *These many people were not true converts.

Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works. This is why Jesus referred to them as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! They were self righteous. Does that sound familiar?

 

[mailmandan]

Yes... and what did the Lord say about faith in the Book of James???

Faith without works is... what?

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to back up his claim, where is the fruit?). This is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" He is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *Please listen closely - James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

So "faith without works is dead" does not mean that we are saved by works or that works are the source of life in faith either. James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

 

[preacher4truth]

But, but... your ugly and yo momma dresses you funny!

So...you're 47?

Yes... and Jesus specifically said those IN HIM that do not bare fruit are taken away

He also said not everyone that calls Him Lord would inherit the Kingdom which is obviously not talking about sinners out in the world who have never accepted Jesus nor called Him their Lord.

Jesus stated He never knew them, not that He once knew them; Matthew 7:23. This is contrary to your teaching and the attempt is to try to make the Words of Christ fit your ideology when it is not there. You are aware this is twisting the Words of the Christ of God, right?

None of those damned in Matthew 7:21-23 were ever converted at any time, that much is apparent no matter what you may attempt with the rest of the context - the words of Christ are clear and solemn at this point.

Many who feel they are keeping the law fall into this category. Why were their lives deemed lawless? Because they were not in Christ, they did not know Him, better yet, He did not know them -- cf. Galatians 4:9.