"EIS" OR "DIA" OR "HOTI" ??

[mailmandan]

The fact that it shows up in both noun and verb form does not alter its meaning. Both mean faith or belief. The very fact that pisteuo is a verb certifies that there is actionable behavior linked to pistis. Scripture never disonnects the acknowledgement of a set of facts from the behaviors that give legitimacy to what one believes to be true. James says that to do so is not faith. Both of these dynamics are inseparable.

When you say "inseparable," are you implying that we are saved by faith and works?

James even offers the impossible challenge to prove his point. "If a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him? This is a rhetorical question to which the obvious answer is NO! The challenge is the offered to the one who would attempt to legitimize his faith without works. "You have faith, and I have works; show me your faith without the works, (This is an impossibility) and I will show you my faith by my works.” Thus, works legitimizes the claim of faith. These linking dynamics cannot be separated. This is precisely what the Hebrew writer demonstrates in chapter 11.

Yet faith is faith and works are works and we are saved through faith at it's origin and not at some point later, after we accomplish a check list of works. In regards to James, he is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith.

This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous." When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

 

[oldhermit]

1 Peter 3:21 tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Baptism is a pledge to God made from a good conscience. We could paraphrase Peter's statement by saying, "Baptism now saves you--not the outward physical ceremony of baptism but the inward spiritual reality which baptism represents." By saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience -through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony itself. So in 1 Peter 3:21; it's not the water itself that saves us, but the "appeal-to-God-for-good-conscience". Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ark for the SAVING of his household). NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

The Greek word “antitupon,” as used in I Peter 3: 21, is “an adjective, used as a noun,” and denotes, in the NT, “a corresponding type,” being “said of baptism.” “The circumstances of the flood, the ark and its occupants, formed a type, and baptism forms “a corresponding type,” each setting forth the spiritual realities of the death, burial, and resurrection of believers in their identification with Christ. It is not a case of type and antitype, but of two types, that in Genesis, the type, and baptism, the corresponding type.” Noah was saved by the ark “through (via) water.” Water was not the means of their salvation, but the ark. The ark is what both delivered and preserved them, the two aspects of “salvation.” Their “salvation” was typical of the salvation promised to the Christian. It pictured it. So also does Christian baptism picture the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

I agree with Robertson that baptism is a symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and is a picture of what has already taken place. Robertson goes on to say - Peter explains, does not wash away the filth of the flesh either in a literal sense, as a bath for the body, or in a metaphorical sense of the filth of the soul. No ceremonies really affect the conscience (Hebrews 9:13). Peter here expressly denies baptismal remission of sin. But the interrogation of a good conscience toward God (alla suneidhsewß agaqhß eperwthma eiß qeonold word from eperwtaw (to question as in Mark 9:32; Matthew 16:1), here only in N.T. In ancient Greek it never means answer, but only inquiry. The inscriptions of the age of the Antonines use it of the Senate's approval after inquiry. That may be the sense here, that is, avowal of consecration to God after inquiry, having repented and turned to God and now making this public proclamation of that fact by means of baptism (the symbol of the previous inward change of heart). Thus taken, it matters little whether eiß qeon (toward God) be taken with eperwthma or suneidhsewß. Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ (di anastasewß Ihsou Cristou). For baptism is a symbolic picture of the resurrection of Christ as well as of our own spiritual renewal (Romans 6:2-6). See 1 Peter 1:3 for regeneration made possible by the resurrection of Jesus.

We do not literally contact the blood of Christ in water baptism, just as we do not literally contact the blood of Christ in the wine at communion during the Roman Catholic Mass. As we read in Colossians 1:14, "through His blood" is a reference, not limited to the fluid as if the blood has saving properties in it's chemistry and we contact it in the waters of baptism, but is an expression pointing to the totality of Christ's atoning work as a sacrifice for sin. The word "cross" is used similarly to refer to the whole atoning work of Christ on the cross (1 Corinthians 1:18; Galatians 6:12,14; Ephesians 2:16).

Dan, you and I have had this conversation on more than one occasion, and to no avail. I will respond this this post and give you the last word. Peter makes an absolute statement of fact - "baptism now saves you." This is what you are attempting to discredit. What he does next is simply explain how this takes place as a function. Water baptism is not for the purpose of removing the dirt from the body. Rather he defines the action as an appeal to God for a clean conscious. An unclean conscience is one that is defiled by sin. Baptism is an appeal to God for the removal of sin that results in a clean conscience.

Paul's descriptive narrative about the symbolism of baptism in Romans 6 is completely opposite of Robertson's attempt to explain it away. He tells us precisely how and when our union with Christ is engaged. The notion that baptism is nothing more than a work of man is completely foreign to scripture. There is only one place in scripture that baptism is called a work and here it is called a work of God. "Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."

Here are the things that scripture tells us that God does for us in baptism.
1. God takes away our sin, Acts 2:28; 22:16, Romans 6:3, and Colossians 2:11. God removes that which prevents us from being reunited with God.
2. God brings us into Christ, Romans 6:3-6. This makes us his possession.
3. God clothes us with Christ. Galatians 3:27. We are now able to share in his righteousness.
4. God adds us to the body of Christ, 1Corinthians 12:13. He makes us part of a body of fellowship that God has called his people.
5. God makes us a new creature in Christ, Romans 6:3-21, Colossians 2:11-13. He has given us new life by destroying the old man of sin and recreating us in the image of God.
6. God frees us from the bondage of sin, Romans 6:3-21. He are now privileged to be servants of righteous and of the Most High God. We no longer have to be held in bondage to the sin that once enslaved us.
7. God saves us and gives us a clean conscience, 1Peter 3:18-21. We no longer have to be tormented in our minds because God has saved us from the sin that plagued our hearts.
All of this what God does in baptism and nowhere else.

 

[slave]

There is not the slightest doubt that whosoever believes in the Lord Jesus has eternal life. We have preached this glad news for many years. As soon as one believes in the Lord Jesus, whoever he may be, he receives eternal life and is thereby forever favored by God.

But let us remember: believing without being baptized is not yet salvation. Indeed, you have believed; indeed, you have eternal life; but you are not yet reckoned as a saved person in the eyes of the world. As long as you are not baptized, you will not be recognized as saved. Why? Because no one knows your difference from the rest of the world. You must rise up and be baptized, declaring the termination of your relationship with the world; then and only then are you saved.

What is baptism? It is your emancipation from the world. It frees you from the brotherhood to which you once belonged. The world knew that you were one with it, but the moment you are baptized, it immediately becomes aware of the fact that you are finished with it. The friendship which you had maintained so many years has now come to an end. You were buried in the tomb, you terminated your course in the world. Before baptism, you knew you had eternal life; after baptism, you know you are saved. Everybody recognizes that you are the Lord’s, for you belong to Him.

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” Why? Because having believed and been baptized, it is now an open fact where one stands. Were there no faith, there would not be that inward fact which alone makes things real. But with that inward reality, baptism puts one outside of the world and terminates the former relationship with the world. Baptism, therefore, is separation.

New International Version
If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Mk. 16:16

And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on his name.
Acts 22:16

who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the Ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved thru water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also - not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God.
(I Pet. 3:20-21)

Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
(Rom. 6:3-4)

Having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
(Col. 2:12)

The first set of Scriptures above is concerned with what baptism will do to the one baptized, while the second set explains the meaning of baptism. The one deals with what the believer ought to know on this side of the water, that is, in advance of baptism; the other treats of what he should know on the farther side of the water, after baptism.

“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.”
(Mk. 16:16).

 

[oldhermit]

When you say "inseparable," are you implying that we are saved by faith and works?

I did not say it. James said it. I think there is nothing further to be gained here so this will be the end of our conversation at this time.

 

[DJ2]

I did not say it. James said it. I think there is nothing further to be gained here so this will be the end of our conversation at this time.

Point well said. It is not you but Peter who uttered those words and it is those of the faith only sects who rail against it.

 

[Grace777x70]

You are but fighting the obvious. "Baptism is like that. It saves you now - not because it removes dirt from your body but because it is the mark of a good conscience toward God. Your salvation comes through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (CEB) You read this verse and you think its means what?? How much clearer can a verse be? "What are you waiting for, arise and be baptized washing away your sins." you read this and you think what?? It is not reasonable to read these and other verses and come to the view that baptism is not part of the Great Commission. Even a 1st year paralegal could read this and understand your view is slanted to say the least. It is the faith alone sects that are not harmonizing the scriptures.

So, in your religion if someone receives Christ on their death bed and doesn't get water baptized - then they do not have the remission of sins and thus aren't saved? There are dozens of scenarios where this very same principle could occur.

That is a complete violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and it is also a violation of the very nature and character of God. God is not a legalist.

It's anti-the gospel and an anti-Christ belief system and complete religious nonsense. Physical water baptism no more puts someone in the body of Christ then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

We are baptized into Christ when we believe and this can be seen in Cornelius when they were given the Holy Spirit when they heard the message of the forgiveness of sins proclaimed to them. Then they got water baptized "after" the Holy Spirit already confirmed they believed the message of Christ.

Romans 6:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

[SUP]4[/SUP] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Acts 10:43-47 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

[SUP]45 [/SUP] All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

[SUP]46 [/SUP] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

[SUP]47 [/SUP] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" Here is Peter explaining to the Jews back home what happened. Their hearts were cleansed by the giving of the Holy Spirit to Cornelius and his household with him "before" they were water baptized.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Water baptism is simply a symbol or representation of something that "has already occurred" when we believed in Christ and to make it a requirement for salvation is not the gospel.

We get to be water baptized and it is a major blessing and I wish Christians were actually taught it's significance in that we too have died with Christ and have been risen to a new creation in Him.

 

[mailmandan]

I did not say it. James said it. I think there is nothing further to be gained here so this will be the end of our conversation at this time.

Is James really saying that we are saved by works in James 2:14-24? That's what I was taught in the Roman Catholic church. After harmonizing Scripture with Scripture, that we see that's not the case.

James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

James 2:24 has to be one of the most misunderstood verse in the entire Bible. It's critical that we rightly divide the word of truth and properly harmonize Scripture with Scripture.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous," not accounted as righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds.”

In Matthew 12:37, "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (just like our works) reveal the state of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of grace and righteousness.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9). James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

 

[mailmandan]

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.
Mk. 16:16

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[mailmandan]

Dan, you and I have had this conversation on more than one occasion, and to no avail. I will respond this this post and give you the last word. Peter makes an absolute statement of fact - "baptism now saves you." This is what you are attempting to discredit. What he does next is simply explain how this takes place as a function. Water baptism is not for the purpose of removing the dirt from the body. Rather he defines the action as an appeal to God for a clean conscious. An unclean conscience is one that is defiled by sin. Baptism is an appeal to God for the removal of sin that results in a clean conscience.

Paul's descriptive narrative about the symbolism of baptism in Romans 6 is completely opposite of Robertson's attempt to explain it away. He tells us precisely how and when our union with Christ is engaged. The notion that baptism is nothing more than a work of man is completely foreign to scripture. There is only one place in scripture that baptism is called a work and here it is called a work of God. "Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."

Here are the things that scripture tells us that God does for us in baptism.
1. God takes away our sin, Acts 2:28; 22:16, Romans 6:3, and Colossians 2:11. God removes that which prevents us from being reunited with God.
2. God brings us into Christ, Romans 6:3-6. This makes us his possession.
3. God clothes us with Christ. Galatians 3:27. We are now able to share in his righteousness.
4. God adds us to the body of Christ, 1Corinthians 12:13. He makes us part of a body of fellowship that God has called his people.
5. God makes us a new creature in Christ, Romans 6:3-21, Colossians 2:11-13. He has given us new life by destroying the old man of sin and recreating us in the image of God.
6. God frees us from the bondage of sin, Romans 6:3-21. He are now privileged to be servants of righteous and of the Most High God. We no longer have to be held in bondage to the sin that once enslaved us.
7. God saves us and gives us a clean conscience, 1Peter 3:18-21. We no longer have to be tormented in our minds because God has saved us from the sin that plagued our hearts.
All of this what God does in baptism and nowhere else.

I believe where people get confused in regards to water baptism is they confuse the symbol with the reality. The symbol can even be used to refer to the reality, which can create a flood of confusion. Even though we've had this conversation before to no avail, I always appreciate that you are a gentleman in our discussions.

We sure went round and round in this thread - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/112580-since-acts-2-38-teaches-baptism-commanded-remission-sins-10.html

 

[Grace777x70]

I believe where people get confused in regards to water baptism is they confuse the symbol with the reality. The symbol can even be used to refer to the reality, which can create a flood of confusion. Even though we've had this conversation before to no avail, I always appreciate that you are a gentleman in our discussions.

We sure went round and round in this thread - http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/112580-since-acts-2-38-teaches-baptism-commanded-remission-sins-10.html

I agree as to it's symbolism of the believer being baptized into Christ. Every believer should be water baptized as it is a major blessing from God.

It's like communion in it's representation significance. Taking communion doesn't save anyone anymore then being ducked in water does,

Imagine the hay day the enemy has on all those family member who's loved ones came to Christ before they died but didn't have a chance to get water baptized? He would say along with those that say water baptism is needed "in order" to receive remission of sins - that they will burn in hell now for ever because they didn't get dunked in water. It is an anti-Christ and anti-gospel belief system.

We "get " to be water baptized to symbolize what the Holy Spirit has "already" confirmed when we received Christ and believed the gospel message that " all sins are forgiven because of the blood of Jesus." . Thank you Jesus!

 

[mailmandan]

I agree as to it's symbolism of the believer being baptized into Christ. Every believer should be water baptized as it is a major blessing from God.

It's like communion in it's representation significance. Taking communion doesn't save anyone anymore then being ducked in water does,

Imagine the hay day the enemy has on all those family member who's loved ones came to Christ before they died but didn't have a chance to get water baptized? He would say along with those that say water baptism is needed "in order" to receive remission of sins - that they will burn in hell now for ever because they didn't get dunked in water. It is an anti-Christ and anti-gospel belief system.

We "get " to be water baptized to symbolize what the Holy Spirit has "already" confirmed when we received Christ and believed the gospel message that " all sins are forgiven because of the blood of Jesus." . Thank you Jesus!

I like the way Greek scholar Daniel Wallace explained it: Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized.

 

[slave]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Well first of all, read my post #80 again, this will answer some of your issues in answering your questions. Secondly, if you want me to rewrite Scripture I can for you: "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized." Acts 2:38.

But, as for me and my household I will serve the Word as written. You need to note the difference of eternal life versus being saved. The Holy Spirit will lead you if you are willing. And you need to note whether or not your life in Christ is real or simply a hopeful dream. God is talking to us all regarding this in these Scriptures. Your eternal life is succored thru Jesus Christ. I feel as if you needed me to say that out loud. But, there's more to the story of life...His Life in us.

James 2:14-16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Faith and Works

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [a]that faith save him?15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, [b]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

This is not works towards God. It is simply claiming that which I already have but by claiming it I obey towards it showing my separation from the world I once was akin to. It is separation... (I am claiming I have been bought at a price; realizing I have died to myself with Jesus on that Cross).

The truth of believing in Christ and having eternal life is always set in motion by God in us. God declares if we are ashamed of Him, He will be ashamed of us to His Father in time of His glory. It is the fruitfulness of Christ that we lay waste to our old ways and connections thru obedience to that claimed position that we have claimed and that God has granted us in grace thru Jesus' on a cross and in His resurrection thru our believing and receiving it.

But if you never decide to go forward, and hence never go forward - what makes you think you believed and received? What makes the world believe you believed and received? Where is the changed life? Where is the spirit lived life? God does not judge the soul, He judges your spirit. Why hesitate? He has given you His Spirit and power , God is saying, "For he who hesitates is lost." The Crown of Life is given to those who overcome in Christ, showing the faithfulness of God and giving Him His due ​glory. Faith without works is hence, useless.

 

[mailmandan]

Well first of all, read my post #80 again, this will answer some of your issues in answering your questions. Secondly, if you want me to rewrite Scripture I can for you: "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized." Acts 2:38.

I did not rewrite Scripture in post #88. I simply read the WHOLE verse and properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion. Be sure to read post #61 in regards to Acts 2:38.

But, as for me and my household I will serve the Word as written. You need to note the difference of eternal life versus being saved. The Holy Spirit will lead you if you are willing. And you need to note whether or not your life in Christ is real or simply a hopeful dream. God is talking to us all regarding this in these Scriptures. Your eternal life is succored thru Jesus Christ. I feel as if you needed me to say that out loud. But, there's more to the story of life...His Life in us.

I've been a born again Christian for several years now. *1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

James 2:14-16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Faith and Works

14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can [a]that faith save him?15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

This is not works towards God. It is simply claiming that which I already have but by claiming it I obey towards it showing my separation from the world I once was akin to. It is separation... (I am claiming I have been bought at a price; realizing I have died to myself with Jesus on that Cross).

The truth of believing in Christ and having eternal life is always set in motion by God in us. God declares if we are ashamed of Him, He will be ashamed of us to His Father in time of His glory. It is the fruitfulness of Christ that we lay waste to our old ways and connections thru obedience to that claimed position that we have claimed and that God has granted us in grace thru Jesus' on a cross and in His resurrection thru our believing and receiving it.

But if you never decide to go forward, and hence never go forward - what makes you think you believed and received? What makes the world believe you believed and received? Where is the changed life? Where is the spirit lived life? God does not judge the soul, He judges your spirit. Why hesitate? He has given you His Spirit and power , God is saying, "For he who hesitates is lost." The Crown of Life is given to those who overcome in Christ, showing the faithfulness of God and giving Him His due ​glory. Faith without works is hence, useless.

Be sure to read posts #74, 81, and 87 in regards to James 2:14-24.

Now in regards to water baptism, it logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe the gospel and become saved, but if you are on your death bed (like the thief on the cross) and are unable to get water baptized, you are still be saved because you BELIEVE (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16 etc..) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b)..but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Certainly, water baptism is an important act of obedience (I couldn't wait to get water baptized after I received Christ through faith!)

Anyone who professes to believe in Christ for salvation and yet refuses to get water baptized is of questionable sincerity. It's unthinkable that anyone would believe, yet refuse to be water baptized. Notice, however, those who Jesus said would be condemned: "whoever does not believe." No mention was made of not being water baptized. The emphasis is on the lack of belief and not the lack of water baptism.

Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to saving faith as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers have already been saved by grace through faith and not by works. This does not remove good works and acts of obedience from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and justification.

In regards to those who overcome in Christ. 1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—OUR FAITH. Praise God!

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

 

[DJ2]

I like the way Greek scholar Daniel Wallace explained it: Water baptism is not a cause of salvation, but a picture; and as such it serves both as a public acknowledgment (by those present) and a public confession (by the convert) that one has been Spirit baptized.

I like the way Jesus explained it: Who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mark 16:16)

 

[mailmandan]

I like the way Jesus explained it: Who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mark 16:16)

Why didn't you quote the entire verse?

..but he who does not believe will be condemned. (Mark 16:16).

*Now go back and read post #88. If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements?BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

 

[DJ2]

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If baptism is not absolutely essential to salvation why would Jesus even bring it up when speaking about salvation?

 

[mailmandan]

If baptism is not absolutely essential to salvation why would Jesus even bring it up when speaking about salvation?

Because it logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe. It symbolizes that we have been buried with Christ and raised to newness of life. Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death; but Christ’s death would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death is the substance and baptism is the shadow. Without the substance there would be no shadow. The death, burial and resurrection of Christ is figured or cast (as a shadow) in the ordinance of water baptism.

 

[Magenta]

I like the way Jesus explained it: Who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mark 16:16)

Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit It is about being born again of the Holy Spirit of God.

Regarding Mark 16:16, it is important to remember that there are some textual problems with Mark chapter 16, verses 9-20. There is some question as to whether these verses were originally part of the Gospel of Mark or whether they were added later by a scribe. As a result, it is best not to base a key doctrine on anything from Mark 16:9-20, such as snake handling, unless it is also supported by other passages of Scripture.

Assuming that verse 16 is original to Mark, does it teach that baptism is required for salvation? The short answer is, no, it does not. In order to make it teach that baptism is required for salvation, one must go beyond what the verse actually says. What this verse does teach is that belief is necessary for salvation, which is consistent with the countless verses where only belief is mentioned (e.g., John 3:18; John 5:24; John 12:44; John 20:31; 1 John 5:13).

“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mark 16:16). This verse is composed of two basic statements. 1—He who believes and is baptized will be saved. 2—He who does not believe will be condemned.

While this verse tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they are saved), it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary, viz., “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse.

Those who try to use Mark 16:16 to teach that baptism is necessary for salvation commit a common but serious mistake that is sometimes called the Negative Inference Fallacy. This is the rule to follow: “If a statement is true, we cannot assume that all negations (or opposites) of that statement are also true." For example, the statement “a dog with brown spots is an animal” is true; however, the negative, “if a dog does not have brown spots, it is not an animal” is false. In the same way, “he who believes and is baptized will be saved” is true; however, the statement “he who believes but is not baptized will not be saved” is an unwarranted assumption. Yet this is exactly the assumption made by those who support baptismal regeneration.

Consider this example: "Whoever believes and lives in Kansas will be saved, but those that do not believe are condemned." This statement is strictly true; Kansans who believe in Jesus will be saved. However, to say that only those believers who live in Kansas are saved is an illogical and false assumption. The statement does not say a believer must live in Kansas in order to go to heaven. Similarly, Mark 16:16 does not say a believer must be baptized. The verse states a fact about baptized believers (they will be saved), but it says exactly nothing about believers who have not been baptized. There may be believers who do not dwell in Kansas, yet they are still saved; and there may be believers who have not been baptized, yet they, too, are still saved.

The one specific condition required for salvation is stated in the second part of Mark 16:16: “Whoever does not believe will be condemned.” In essence, Jesus has given both the positive condition of belief (whoever believes will be saved) and the negative condition of unbelief (whoever does not believe will be condemned). Therefore, we can say with absolute certainty that belief is the requirement for salvation. More importantly, we see this condition restated positively and negatively throughout Scripture (John 3:16; John 3:18; John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:53-54; John 8:24; Acts 16:31).

Jesus mentions a condition related to salvation (baptism) in Mark 16:16. But a related condition should not be confused with a requirement. For example, having a fever is related to being ill, but a fever is not required for illness to be present. Nowhere in the Bible do we find a statement such as “whoever is not baptized will be condemned.” Therefore, we cannot say that baptism is necessary for salvation based on Mark 16:16 or any other verse.

Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? No, it does not. It clearly establishes that belief is required for salvation, but it does not prove or disprove the idea of baptism being a requirement. How can we know, then, if one must be baptized in order to be saved? We must look to the full counsel of God’s Word. Here is a summary of the evidence:

1—The Bible is clear that we are saved by faith alone. Abraham was saved by faith, and we are saved by faith (Romans 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6-22).

2—Throughout the Bible, in every dispensation, people have been saved without being baptized. Every believer in the Old Testament (e.g., Abraham, Jacob, David, Solomon) was saved but not baptized. The thief on the cross was saved but not baptized. Cornelius was saved before he was baptized (Acts 10:44-46).

3—Baptism is a testimony of our faith and a public declaration that we believe in Jesus Christ. The Scriptures tell us that we have eternal life the moment we believe (John 5:24), and belief always comes before being baptized. Baptism does not save us any more than walking an aisle or saying a prayer saves us. We are saved when we believe.

4—The Bible never says that if one is not baptized then he is not saved.

5—If baptism were required for salvation, then no one could be saved without another party being present. Someone must be there to baptize a person before he can be saved. This effectively limits who can be saved and when he can be saved. The consequences of this doctrine, when carried to a logical conclusion, are devastating. For example, a soldier who believes on the battlefield but is killed before he can be baptized would go to hell.

6—Throughout the Bible we see that at the point of faith a believer possesses all the promises and blessings of salvation (John 1:12; 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; 20:31; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31). When one believes, he has eternal life, does not come under judgment, and has passed from death into life (John 5:24)—all before he or she is baptized.

If you believe in baptismal regeneration, you would do well to prayerfully consider whom or what you are really putting your trust in. Is your faith in a physical act (being baptized) or in the finished work of Christ on the cross? Whom or what are you trusting for salvation? Is it the shadow (baptism) or the substance (Jesus Christ)? Our faith must rest in Christ alone. “We have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace” (Ephesians 1:7). https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-Mark-16-16.html

 

[slave]

I did not rewrite Scripture in post #88. I simply read the WHOLE verse and properly harmonized Scripture with Scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion. Be sure to read post #61 in regards to Acts 2:38.

I've been a born again Christian for several years now. *1 John 5:11 - And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Be sure to read posts #74, 81, and 87 in regards to James 2:14-24.

Now in regards to water baptism, it logically follows that we get water baptized after we believe the gospel and become saved, but if you are on your death bed (like the thief on the cross) and are unable to get water baptized, you are still be saved because you BELIEVE (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; Romans 1:16 etc..) which is in harmony with Mark 16:16(b)..but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Certainly, water baptism is an important act of obedience (I couldn't wait to get water baptized after I received Christ through faith!)

Anyone who professes to believe in Christ for salvation and yet refuses to get water baptized is of questionable sincerity. It's unthinkable that anyone would believe, yet refuse to be water baptized. Notice, however, those who Jesus said would be condemned: "whoever does not believe." No mention was made of not being water baptized. The emphasis is on the lack of belief and not the lack of water baptism.

Baptism put it in it's proper place, subsequent to saving faith as all rites and works must be. Baptism is for believers, and believers have already been saved by grace through faith and not by works. This does not remove good works and acts of obedience from the Christian life, it just puts them in their proper place, subsequent to regeneration and justification.

In regards to those who overcome in Christ. 1 John 5:4 - For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—OUR FAITH. Praise God!

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen as the Savior of all who believe (trust) in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

Well, I never claimed you rewrote any Scripture, I rewrote it on your behalf of stated beliefs to illustrate its fallacies.

Our choice is indelibly marked for time and eternity. What we decide makes our destiny; not what we have felt, nor what we have been moved to do, or inspired to see, but what we decide to do in a given crisis., it is that which makes or mars us. Sooner or later there comes to every life the question - Will I choose to side with God's verdict on sin in the Cross of Christ? I may say, "I won't accept." or, "I will put it off." or, "I have figured out away around it," but all of those things are decisions, remember.

I have found my study of the subject on Baptism to be enlightened by God, I am always open for His teachings, and rebuke, and corrections, and training, but it is He I bow to and no one else. If godly counsel approaches I have the intuition of His spirit that speaks to my spirit. I must be honest, I discern prejudice in your stand on His Word, and I see you can not even hear me say that we do have eternal life based on believing. But, it seems everything stops for you at that point. And for me, I am going where Jesus is leading me...to being a real Holy Child who will be saved. The Cross is of death and life; not just life.

 

[DJ2]

So, in your religion if someone receives Christ on their death bed and doesn't get water baptized - then they do not have the remission of sins and thus aren't saved? There are dozens of scenarios where this very same principle could occur.

That is a complete violation of the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and it is also a violation of the very nature and character of God. God is not a legalist.

It's anti-the gospel and an anti-Christ belief system and complete religious nonsense. Physical water baptism no more puts someone in the body of Christ then Daffy Duck and Donald Duck are the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation.

We are baptized into Christ when we believe and this can be seen in Cornelius when they were given the Holy Spirit when they heard the message of the forgiveness of sins proclaimed to them. Then they got water baptized "after" the Holy Spirit already confirmed they believed the message of Christ.

Romans 6:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

[SUP]4[/SUP] Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Acts 10:43-47 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

[SUP]45 [/SUP] All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

[SUP]46 [/SUP] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

[SUP]47 [/SUP] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" Here is Peter explaining to the Jews back home what happened. Their hearts were cleansed by the giving of the Holy Spirit to Cornelius and his household with him "before" they were water baptized.

Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Water baptism is simply a symbol or representation of something that "has already occurred" when we believed in Christ and to make it a requirement for salvation is not the gospel.

We get to be water baptized and it is a major blessing and I wish Christians were actually taught it's significance in that we too have died with Christ and have been risen to a new creation in Him.

You can present all the scenarios you like, they do not change the scriptures. Your scenarios are but weak attempts at finding loopholes in the Great Commission. Would you have told Naaman to not be dipped in the Jordan River? Would you have told the blind man to not wash in the Pool of Siloam? Were these commands legalism? Surely God would not be so legalistic as to not bless them? Was God a legalist when He killed Uzzah for simply touching the Ark? Was God a legalist when He killed Aaron's sons for offering the wrong fire? You bet God is a legalist!!

And those at the wedding feast not found wearing that simple white garment, you will not be able to use "but that's legalism" as a defense!

"We are baptized into Christ when we believe"? Was Jesus baptized when He believed He had to fulfill all righteousness? Of course not. He fulfilled all righteousness when He was baptized, in water!!

God is not mocked. He does not need to explain Himself to us. We are to submit to His commands. Whether it means walking around the walls of a city, not eating from a certain tree or throwing a net into a empty lake.

Labeling baptism a work if done for the remission of sins is something that you will be called to account for on the day of judgement.