females, yes or no, what about pastors leading a Church yes or no, where?

[trofimus]

We had this conversation before and I agree with most of your statement. However, the Bible doesn't have one Head bishop, but elders are another name for Bishop/overseer. So you hierarchy should be Jesus/Rabbi, apostles, prophets, evangelist, elders/bishops, deacons/teachers

However. Folks ignore that.

Key note I believe there is only One Jesus and the apostles listed in the Bible. Not these new folks claiming the title. Some folks even claim to be Jesus returned.

If we base our view only on the NT writings, we cannot decide if bishop = elder etc.

If we count early Christian writings too, I think we can say that:

1. apostles and prophets were not needed to be part of the local church
2. deacon was rather a practical position, having nothing to do with the leadership of the church as such
3. bishop was one and elders were severals


You can see Didaché, Ignatios etc for more references...

 

[resurrection33]

All this talk about females being pastors, made me realize, that the Scripture I was posting has nothing to do with pastors, it had to do with overseers, elders and deacons and what to look for when appointing them. Where in Scripture does it say that a pastor is to be the sole leader of a Church, as in the final say, the buck stops here, everything needs to be okayed by them, as in lead, head, senior pastor?

Some pastors (and elders and deacons) have big egos and think they should always have their way, and some social climbers will back them up every step of the way. However, the real leaders of a church are those who are obeying the Lord's commandments.

 

[Rockrz]

Are you saying that all saints are men?

Where did I say all women are going to hell and cannot possibly be saved???

Here's what Jesus thinks about a leader that wants to be addressed by what's their position.

You must be a liberal politically... now you are taking the subject elsewhere and cannot stay on topic which is: God never authorized women to be pastors in His Word.

Both of you have shown that you did not ever read what I posted

I was too busy putting what God said first place for which I make zero apologies!

Rockrz you forgot the Judges of Israel and Debra

You forgot that the Lord never had any female prophets, priests, and Jesus declined to appoint any women as one of His 12 Apostles.

The position of a "pastor" as practiced in some churches today is not biblical.

That's not true... if it were, then God lied in Ephesians 4:11,12:

Ephesians 4:11,12
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

In this passage, "Pastor" is strong's G4166 - a shepherd (literally or figuratively): KJV -- shepherd, pastor.

Pastors are clearly the shepherd of local church congregations, but I understand what you mean if you are talking about the position being used as "you people serve me and my vision"

In Matthew 23:11 Jesus said "he who is great among you will be a servant to you"... Jesus did not say SHE.

Now this man had four virgin daughters who prophesied

That does not claim women can be pastors. These girls were helps.

I trust how our denom picks pastors

Maybe you should go ahead and spell out denomination... at quick glance it looks like you are saying "I trust how our demon picks pastors"

 

[Dino246]

... You must be a liberal politically... now you are taking the subject elsewhere and cannot stay on topic which is: God never authorized women to be pastors in His Word.

What does one's political ideology have to do with one's view of Scripture? If you don't like side-trails, don't start them yourself. Also, don't repeat the mistake (which you have made several times already) of attacking the person. Stick to the issues.

God didn't forbid women from being pastors either. If you think He did, then prove it by quoting Scripture. Remember to use the correct terms, because overseer/elder/bishop are NOT the same words as pastor/shepherd. The absence of permitting is not the same as forbidding; that would be an argument from silence, which is not valid.

You forgot that the Lord never had any female prophets, priests, and Jesus declined to appoint any women as one of His 12 Apostles.

Have you not read of Anna and Philip's four daughters, who all prophesied? Clearly you have, because you comment on Philip's daughters further down. Your inconsistency is laughable.
A lack of female apostles is no evidence against God's approval of female pastors.

Ephesians 4:11,12
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

In this passage, "Pastor" is strong's G4166 - a shepherd (literally or figuratively): KJV -- shepherd, pastor. Pastors are clearly the shepherd of local church congregations, but I understand what you mean if you are talking about the position being used as "you people serve me and my vision"

That is your interpretation, not Scripture. By the way, Strong's is NOT a reliable dictionary for the meaning of a word. It is simply a dictionary of how words were used in the King James version.

In Matthew 23:11 Jesus said "he who is great among you will be a servant to you"... Jesus did not say SHE.

Until just a couple of decades ago, the English words, "he" and "his" were considered acceptable as gender-neutral where gender was not specified. Unless you are well-trained in Greek (and, by many of your posts, I highly doubt that), you need a very good reason to assume that these terms are gender-exclusive.

That does not claim women can be pastors. These girls [Philip's daughters] were helps.

Prove it. There is nothing else in Scripture about them.

 

[trofimus]

My view of the scriptures leads me to believe that there is not one person that has the role of "The Pastor" in a local assembly. There can be a lead pastor or one who is gifted in teaching in a certain area and a spokesperson for what the others have decided as a group - how large that is depends on the Holy Spirit as it is He that makes them overseers in an assembly.

Once a church has been established by a believer in an area - usually done by someone operating in the function of an apostle ( which just means a sent one to a specific group) - then there is a local governing of that body of believers.

There seems to be a "spokesperson" for the plurality of elders or pastors if you like that term better. Shepherd is the correct term used biblically but our modern day evangelical system has changed many things including elevating one person as "The Pastor".

The pastor, elder and bishop are all speaking of the same person but they are spoken of in different ways or functions.

1 Peter 5:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Therefore, I exhort the elders ( greek word for presbyters, elder ) among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] shepherd ( Greek word - feed, shepherd ) the flock of God among you, exercising oversight ( Greek word for bishop, overseer ) not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness;

[SUP]3 [/SUP] nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.

We see this being done again in Acts 20 when Paul is talking to the "elders" in Ephesus ( not the one Pastor of Ephesus )

Acts 20:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] "Be on guard for yourselves ( the elders ) and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, ( Greek word for bishop, overseer ) to shepherd ( Greek word "to shepherd, nourish, feed ) the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.

I was reading the letter of Ignatios of Antioch to the church in Ephesus just now and found this:

"I have therefore received your whole multitude in the name of God, through Onesimus, a man of inexpressible love, and who is your bishop, whom I pray you by Jesus Christ to love, and that you would all seek to be like him. Blessed be God, who has granted unto you, who are yourselves so excellent, to obtain such an excellent bishop..."

(Yeah, Onesimus, the slave of Philemon we know from the NT became a bishop in the Ephesian church)

"...Wherefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also ye do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung."

105 AD, chapters 1 and 4.

 

[Grace777x70]

I was reading the letter of Ignatios of Antioch to the church in Ephesus just now and found this:

"I have therefore received your whole multitude in the name of God, through Onesimus, a man of inexpressible love, and who is your bishop, whom I pray you by Jesus Christ to love, and that you would all seek to be like him. Blessed be God, who has granted unto you, who are yourselves so excellent, to obtain such an excellent bishop..."

(Yeah, Onesimus, the slave of Philemon we know from the NT became a bishop in the Ephesian church)

"...Wherefore it is fitting that ye should run together in accordance with the will of your bishop, which thing also ye do. For your justly renowned presbytery, worthy of God, is fitted as exactly to the bishop as the strings are to the harp. Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung."

105 AD, chapters 1 and 4.

Cool! - about the slave Onesimus becoming a leader in the local church. That went against the "cultural" ideas of that day concerning slaves.

The reality is that in Ephesus there were many elders or bishops as Acts 20:17, 28 very clearly shows us and even in Ignatios of Antioch quote I see no where does it say that there is only one person overseeing ( Greek word for bishop ) in Ephesus.

 

[trofimus]

Cool! - about the slave Onesimus becoming a leader in the local church. That went against the "cultural" ideas of that day concerning slaves.

Philemon probably listened to Paul's command and received Onesimus not as a slave again, but as a (free) brother and gave him freedom.

The reality is that in Ephesus there were many elders or bishops as Acts 20:17, 28 very clearly shows...

Hmm, this is interesting place, indeed. The only solution I can imagine would be that there were more (smaller, home?) churches and also their bishops came together with presbyters.
But it is only a possibility, nothing in the text, of course.

...and even in Ignatios of Antioch quote I see no where does it say that there is only one person overseeing ( Greek word for bishop ) in Ephesus

One harp, several strings.

 

[Grace777x70]

Philemon probably listened to Paul's command and received Onesimus not as a slave again, but as a (free) brother and gave him freedom.


Hmm, this is interesting place, indeed. The only solution I can imagine would be that there were more (smaller, home?) churches and also their bishops came together with presbyters.
But it is only a possibility, nothing in the text, of course.


One harp, several strings.

Well if we are using harp as an analogy - I would say Jesus is the Harp. Jesus is the Head and the government shall be upon His shoulders as the body of Christ. Shoulders speaks of "plurality".

I understand where man came up with the idea of one person running everything as in "The pastor or The bishop". It is in the Old Testament ( as in Moses and in kings over the people ) but I believe the New Covenant changed the reality of things seeing that it is now a spiritual kingdom run by spiritual truths.

But as I say - I wouldn't make a stink over it. If man wants to do that - then it wouldn't stop me for a second fellowshipping with them over Christ and His love and grace for us all.

 

[trofimus]

Well if we are using harp as an analogy - I would say Jesus is the Harp. Jesus is the Head and the government shall be upon His shoulders as the body of Christ. Shoulders speaks of "plurality".

Am I not silly? I am quoting harp and strings to prove that one bishop and several presbyters and on the second page is this:

"Since, then, I have had the privilege of seeing you, through Damas your most worthy bishop, and through your worthy presbyters Bassus and Apollonius, and through my fellow-servant the deacon Sotio, whose friendship may I ever enjoy, inasmuch as he is subject to the bishop as to the grace of God, and to the presbytery as to the law of Jesus Christ, [I now write to you].

Now it becomes you also not to treat your bishop too familiarly on account of his youth, but to yield him all reverence, having respect to the power of God the Father, as I have known even holy presbyters do, not judging rashly, from the manifest youthful appearance [of their bishop], but as being themselves prudent in God, submitting to him, or rather not to him, but to the Father of Jesus Christ, the bishop of us all. It is therefore fitting that you should, after no hypocritical fashion, obey [your bishop], in honour of Him who has wired us [so to do], since he that does not so deceives not [by such conduct] the bishop that is visible, but seeks to mock Him that is invisible. And all such conduct has reference not to man, but to God, who knows all secrets."


I think it is much clearer

 

[Rockrz]

God didn't forbid women from being pastors either

Sure he did... you are a cherry picker who does not believe the entire New Testament, just bits and pieces.

Have you not read of Anna and Philip's four daughters, who all prophesied?

Have you still not understood that just cause a few ladies prophesied does not mean women can be pastors?

That's like saying just cause someone owns a car, they can pilot an airplane... the two to totally unrelated.

A lack of female apostles is no evidence against God's approval of female pastors

A lack of female apostles demonstrates the Lord has not chosen women to be in leadership over men.

acceptable as gender-neutral where gender was not specified

What are you, a cross dresser??? One of those no gender bender fender people er something?

God made them male and female... so each person is either a girl or a guy and nobody is "gender neutral"

Prove it.

I've already posted proof that leadership is authorized by the Lord to be for men only. Just cause you choose to deny the validity of scripture is not my problem... that's on you YO

Only the deceived continually agree with the devil that what God has authorized should be ignored.

That will not end well for those deceived in to rejecting God's ways of being and doing right.

 

[MattforJesus]

Some people like to go to Golden Coral,or the many other all you can eat buffets,with an assortment of food to choose from,and as they venture amongst the food selection,they think I like this for it is very tasty,and a delight to my taste buds,but I do not like this and will pass on this not so tasty dish that does not appeal to my appetite,as they choose what items they like,and pass up on many other items,not because they can only eat so much,but because they do not like those foods.

That is how some people treat the Bible,as they choose what parts they like,and what parts they do not like,and unlike the all you can eat buffet where they cannot turn that piece of beef liver in to a t-bone steak,or turn that broccoli in to a lobster tail,the people that choose what they like,and do not like,of the Bible,are like magicians,turning scriptures that say one thing,to mean something else,performing a magic trick that no person can duplicate in the world of magic,for the deception,and illusion,is far greater than them,and the fans go wow,how did he do that,for it stated something obvious,easy to understand,without a doubt,and they waved their magic wand,and presto,abracadabra,it meant something different.

 

[Rockrz]

they waved their magic wand,and presto,abracadabra,it meant something different.

That's what the devil did to get women to become pastors and teachers so he could do what he did in the garden... bring forth deception.

 

[Dino246]

Sure he did... you are a cherry picker who does not believe the entire New Testament, just bits and pieces.

Again, you are unable to respond adequately to the argument, so you attack the person. Such reasoning is without merit.

Have you still not understood that just cause a few ladies prophesied does not mean women can be pastors? That's like saying just cause someone owns a car, they can pilot an airplane... the two to totally unrelated.

You wrote this: "You forgot that the Lord never had any female prophets...." In response, I wrote this: "Have you not read of Anna and Philip's four daughters, who all prophesied?" Your point was clearly and easily refuted, but you haven't shown the humility to acknowledge your error.

A lack of female apostles demonstrates the Lord has not chosen women to be in leadership over men.

This argument is from silence. By this logic, everything not explicitly stated in Scripture is forbidden, which of course is just wrong.

What are you, a cross dresser??? One of those no gender bender fender people er something?

God made them male and female... so each person is either a girl or a guy and nobody is "gender neutral"

I claimed that a noun can be gender-neutral. I said nothing about persons as such. Your attempt at denigrating me is foolish.

I've already posted proof that leadership is authorized by the Lord to be for men only. Just cause you choose to deny the validity of scripture is not my problem...

This post indicates that you don't understand the concept of "proof". Once again, there is not a single verse in Scripture which says that women may not be pastors. I challenge you to produce one, using those terms.

Only the deceived continually agree with the devil that what God has authorized should be ignored. That will not end well for those deceived in to rejecting God's ways of being and doing right.

Appeal to fear; logically invalid and, like so many of your points, utterly without merit.

 

[Johnny_B]

I dont think so. It seems to me from the early church writings, that deacons were "only" ministers to poor ones, widows etc, they worked with money.

Some writings seem to indicate that elders were the "most high authority" in the local Church and they could probably put bishop out of the office, some seem to indicate it was a bishop, whose role was to guard the teaching of elders and the work of deacons.

I have never read any early Christian writing that says they are all equal in the hierarchy... do you have any?

I was going by what Jesus said in Matthew 20 and 23 from His instructions, the greater would be the servant and the one that wanted to be first would be their slave. To me that means that ones was greater than the other, they were all equal.

 

[Johnny_B]

Pastor, by very nature< is the person hired to take care of the flock. What's the other choice, have sheep caring for the flock?

BTW, I'm in a denom, so the flocks are connected. Even the oversight has oversight -- fellow pastors. (Which in my denom IS elders.)

I'm a woman, so have no problems submitting to authority... as long as I learn to trust the authority first. I trust how our denom picks pastors, so it's all good.

A presbytery of elders or a group of elders and in that group there will be one or some that are pastor teachers and they will guide the flock in teaching for the equipping and building up of the saints alone with the other gifts given to the body for equipping and building up of the saints. You just don't have one lead/head/senior paster that calls all the shots or with the buck stops here authority.

 

[Johnny_B]

Pastor, by very nature< is the person hired to take care of the flock. What's the other choice, have sheep caring for the flock?

BTW, I'm in a denom, so the flocks are connected. Even the oversight has oversight -- fellow pastors. (Which in my denom IS elders.)

I'm a woman, so have no problems submitting to authority... as long as I learn to trust the authority first. I trust how our denom picks pastors, so it's all good.

I forgot to mention that it's actually a relief for the over all pastor from having to make all the final decisions and overall Church business. They have a Church council but many of them don't listen to them if it's not what they want to do, I've seen that many times and I've seen those decision fail all of the time. It's as if God caused it to fail so they would see that they needed to listen to the council. This way if it's not agreed upon it's shelved until next year or permanently depending on what it is/was.

 

[Johnny_B]

We had this conversation before and I agree with most of your statement. However, the Bible doesn't have one Head bishop, but elders are another name for Bishop/overseer. So you hierarchy should be Jesus/Rabbi, apostles, prophets, evangelist, elders/bishops, deacons/teachers

However. Folks ignore that.

Key note I believe there is only One Jesus and the apostles listed in the Bible. Not these new folks claiming the title. Some folks even claim to be Jesus returned.

Amen!!! And they are as 12 of the 24 pillars of the New Jerusalem, the sent out ones are missionaries as they are called today, but it seems to me that they are the evangelists that are given to the Church for it's building up. The interesting part is that pastor is at the lower end (for lack of a better term) in the list of the gifts to the Church for it's building up, yet we've turned it around.

I view the final two gifts "and some pastors and teachers" as being the same position/person, because all of the others have "some" in front of them "and He gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,"

It's not, "some pastors and some teachers" it's "and some pastors and teachers" it has pastors and teachers together or as being one in the same, no separation by the word "some", plus the use of "and some" before "pastors and teachers." Makes them the same person the way I read it. But I've been wrong before and am always learning.

With the word definition of Vine's dictionary he has elders and overseer/bishops as being the same and pastor is different as well as a deacon. In Romans 16:1 the word for deacon "διάκονος" is translated "servant" when speaking of Phoebe, so women were deacons in the Church.

 

[Angela53510]

If we base our view only on the NT writings, we cannot decide if bishop = elder etc.

If we count early Christian writings too, I think we can say that:

1. apostles and prophets were not needed to be part of the local church
2. deacon was rather a practical position, having nothing to do with the leadership of the church as such
3. bishop was one and elders were severals


You can see Didaché, Ignatios etc for more references...

I already showed you in another thread that the Didaché contradicts the Bible. It also extends far beyond what the bible says. It is a document written by men, not inspired by God. It also has some very strong statements, I probably agree with, that are not found in the Bible. So, I will not make a doctrine out of them. Like not giving a penny to traveling evangelists, and if they hang around more than a day, they are false prophets. That sounds great to me! But is is from the mouth of God? I doubt it! Probably just a rule they made up to keep these people from hanging around begging for food without working.

Yet you keep insisting we can learn from Didaché and basically that it and all these other early church fathers' writings are on the same level as the Bible.

Cease and desist from presenting these writings as equal with Scripture. My advice is to read the Bible, serve God, and stop running to these uninspired writings to make doctrine. Because I assure you, it will be wrong!

 

[Rockrz]

Again, you are unable to respond adequately to the argument, so you attack the person

That's your erroneous opinion... I'm not attacking you (if I were, you'd know it!), I'm informing you that you do not accept the whole counsel of God which is fact.

You pick and choose which scriptures you want to believe and play like others do not exist.

For yo cars you should get a cherry picker sticker!

Hang in there broman, the Lord is trying to open the eyes of yo understanding and shine some like in the darkness cemented in that thick skull of yours.

there is not a single verse in Scripture which says that women may not be pastors

My, my... how long must we have to put up with these mental midgets?


Qualifications for Ministry

1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

Let the deacons (pastors, teachers, ministers) be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Bishop - Strongs G1985

a superintendent, i.e. Christian officer in genitive case charge of a (or the) church (literally or figuratively): KJV -- bishop, overseer (Pastor, Shepherd, Leader).


Deacons - Strongs G1249

probably from an obsolete diako (to run on errands; compare 1377); an attendant, i.e. (genitive case) a waiter (at table or in other menial duties); specially, a Christian teacher and pastor (technically, a deacon): KJV -- deacon, minister, servant.

Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve

Paul bases his viewpoint on creation. In v. 13 he says, "For Adam was first created, then Eve." In the least, this argument shows that Paul is not restricting his treatment to the church; it's a matter that is grounded in the constitutional differences between men and women, or at least in the order of authority that God had ordained. In Gen 2-3, we see an interesting phenomenon relevant to 1 Tim 2. God teaches man, man teaches woman, the devil is out of the picture. That's Gen 2. But in Gen 3, we see the devil teaching woman, woman teaching man, and God is out of the picture. And this is Paul's argument: there is a divinely ordained order to things that, if disturbed, could bring ruin.

1 Timothy 2:12 Almost every commentator says that women should not pastor or teach over men. The argument the Apostle Paul gives for his statement "I do not permit a women to teach or to exercise authority over a man" is found in the following 2 verses. His argument is actually not from culture as some claim but from creation. The validity of his argument and the weight of this statement plants its roots in the creation order. Which means that the statement he makes regarding women not teaching over men (essentially pastoring) stands for all-time and to all cultures everywhere, because he doesnt appeal to culture for his reasons but the creation ORDER.

 

[Dino246]

That's your erroneous opinion...

You still fail to deal properly with any of my comments. Your inappropriate comments have been reported. Have a nice day.