Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Peterjens, I disagree with this statement:

"And in this world, please do not think anyone is fooling themselves, in their world it all makes sense.
So try to put yourself in their shoes, and see how they make their world. You maybe able to help
them and they you. This is what Christ called us to do."

People who live in their own little world are FOOLING themselves to believe that their precious world is reality.

It is the sin of making themselves gods of their little pretend universe and Jesus does NOT tell us to go into their pretend world and play in their make believe reality.

He tells us to proclaim the TRUTH and call people from their made up castles into THE REAL WORLD and see GOD'S REALITY.

In GOD'S REALITY there is only One path to salvation: faith in Jesus Christ and what He did upon the cross.

Faith that the Holy Spirit given to God's born again children will lead us to godly lives that bring glory to our Father above by giving our lives to His service and speaking words of life from a heart overflowing with His love.

So no,God does not call us to live in our own make believe world, but to STOP FOOLING OURSELVES and learn to live in His reality and learn His truths.

 

[JohnTalmid]

Discernment is learned through what you eat? That's ridiculous. Discernment is given by God, through prayer, and perseverance and observation. And how can God change AGAIN? He is eternally UNchanging..

Again God doesn't change! You have not rejected me you rejected the one who sent me, Messiah who gave us a chance to walk in the light. Go ahead ignore scripture to your error
Look it up, why did God tell us to eat certain things? To gain discernment, to tell between good and evil.

 

[PeterJens]

Peterjens, I disagree with this statement:
People who live in their own little world are FOOLING themselves to believe that their precious world is reality.
It is the sin of making themselves gods of their little pretend universe and Jesus does NOT tell us to go into their pretend world and play in their make believe reality.
He tells us to proclaim the TRUTH and call people from their made up castles into THE REAL WORLD and see GOD'S REALITY.
In GOD'S REALITY there is only One path to salvation: faith in Jesus Christ and what He did upon the cross.
Faith that the Holy Spirit given to God's born again children will lead us to godly lives that bring glory to our Father above by giving our lives to His service and speaking words of life from a heart overflowing with His love.
So no,God does not call us to live in our own make believe world, but to STOP FOOLING OURSELVES and learn to live in His reality and learn His truths.

Ariel, your proposition makes perfect sense if you believe there is a God's reality we attain to.
If in truth we will always attain to only part of the reality, and we trust better than the one
we had before, things are not so clear cut.

A psychologist would describe the view a baby has of the world as being mum and me are one.
They then go on to describe how as we grow we move away from this and establish our own
identity. The truth is though we all have delusions, and holes, and blind spots.

One description of how our internal model fits with the real world is how close our predictions
about others behaviour matches what happens. The bigger the gap the more "off" our model is.

And our models come from many sources and take time to change and work through. It is why
we have culture, roles within families, education, behaviour patterns within business and all our
interactions.

Now for all the talk here on cc. when you get to know people the what, how and why they say
things varies a lot, the same words spoken but what they mean and why they say it can be very
different. It takes years to begin to appreciate these differences.

Until one starts to see ones own world and its frailty, one often is too aggressive about others.
And our mission is about change not confrontation, and seeing Gods word sown in peoples hearts,
not destroying things they hold dear, but leading them into an appreciation of Jesus and the cross.

To be told constantly about myself things that are not true, indicates to me how off both the
models being used are, and the fact the "truths" being offered are not helpful.

Until certain individuals listen rather than just lecture their perspective or ten insights what is the
point. I find it amusing when I analyse the positions I am sooooo wrong.

I think for some going to heaven is about knowing the right people.
Sounds a bit like an old boys network, lol

 

[Ariel82]

" I find it amusing when I analyse the positions I am sooooo wrong.

I think for some going to heaven is about knowing the right people.
Sounds a bit like an old boys network, lol"

Yeah this is so wrong in too many ways to comment upon.

I will simply say:
Going to heaven is about knowing the right Person, Christ Jesus.

 

[mailmandan]

Yeah this is so wrong in too many ways to comment upon.

I will simply say:
Going to heaven is about knowing the right Person, Christ Jesus.

Amen! John 17:3.

 

[NetChaplain]

It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation

Amen! One has to first be righteous before there can be works of righteousness!

 

[PeterJens]

The statement you quoted was to illustrate that Dcon was speaking out of love and concern for others.

I do not hear the love or concern, just condemnation.
When things get personal, and people start saying this is whats wrong with you,
it goes rather sideways. People have claimed I am just saying things to prove myself,
or because I am hurt, or to get revenge, or for any reason other than this is what I believe.

Let me recap a little. Is it sin that sends us to the lake of fire or who we are?
A child of God can sin, but this is an aberration of who they are.
A sinner can do good things, but this is an aberration of who they are.

So a child of God when challenged will repent.
A sinner will never repent, and regrets the good they do, because it just leads to
more hurt.

The model people live with 1 sin sends you to hell.
Now separation from God is sin, so all are lost and doomed to hell.

Christs righteousness is reconned to us by faith after we repent and walk in faith.

So the principle that sin is not counted against the believer because of faith works,
because the process of conviction, repentance and acceptance takes time.

So David was not cast out because of Bathesheba, but he did pay a price.
For legalists this delay annoys them. The would rather say sin is either forgiven,
done or you go to hell for it. Anything more human and messy is wrong in their
eyes.

 

[PeterJens]

Yeah this is so wrong in too many ways to comment upon.

I will simply say:
Going to heaven is about knowing the right Person, Christ Jesus.

The demons know Jesus, they are not going to heaven.
And Jesus does not just like people, so their card is guaranteed.

Sounds like you have bought into get a free pass theology.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

how is this still a discussion?



Jesus saves us if we have faith (end of story)
If we have true faith and love Jesus
we have works (end of story)



so if you have works thats a SIGN you have faith
but may just be dirty rags


if you just believe and understand the Truth but no new heart then you have no works



i think if youre trying to EARN your salvation
youre off base


if youre thinking you can still live in sin with a new heart
youre off base

 

[gb9]

The demons know Jesus, they are not going to heaven.
And Jesus does not just like people, so their card is guaranteed.

Sounds like you have bought into get a free pass theology.

you mean like when in the whole Gospel of John, Jesus said to believe in Him to be saved, over and over.

peter, try sometimes to actually read the N.T., or better yet the whole Bible, from front to back. then you will have a much more complete view of the salvation experience.

and don't read it with emotions, which are flexible. read and accept what it says, no matter how you " feel " about it.

 

[PeterJens]

I love my kids, I want things to go well for them, but they are not going to
heaven with Christ unless they walk in communion with Him.

To be born again, a mystical experience, for some is the guarantee everything
is set.

For good reason each of the set ideas gets blown apart by some individual who
fits the bill, "he is definately saved" who then falls away.

I love the idea, people in that church over their all know the Lord. Then you get
talking to them, and the range is so vast, either the preacher is right and a lot of
these guys are hangers on, or the door to heaven is very wide.

Look at cc the variations start simple, then you find the groups and their own
disagreements are vast. It is why I find it better just talking about points and observations
on them, because I probably have issues with many, but do not want or have the time
to talk them through. Sometimes there is only maturing that will change some things, and
others never.

 

[mj007]

There are a few of these robots here. You never really hear much 'love' come out of them. However their expression of what I think to them is love, is 'you are wrong'. They intend to dispirit or defile you. Remember Peter, you are not allowed to have your own opinion, you are supposed to believe that they are the truth, the way and the life. Somehow they replace Jesus with themselves as being right about everything?

What I always think and remember is that, God is Love, and that we should love our neighbours as we love ourself. Maybe we need to help inspire them to love themselves, because, that is why they need a target to reflect their pain on to. We must forgive them for they know not what they do.

When people go through bad experiences they become an open channel for demons, and if they succumb, they quite often don't notice it and think that who and how they are, is, who they are. But it is quite simple, who we are is supposed to be loving to others. They must remember who they were born as and compare it to how they are now.

The demons know Jesus, they are not going to heaven.
And Jesus does not just like people, so their card is guaranteed.

Sounds like you have bought into get a free pass theology.

 

[PeterJens]

you mean like when in the whole Gospel of John, Jesus said to believe in Him to be saved, over and over.
peter, try sometimes to actually read the N.T., or better yet the whole Bible, from front to back. then you will have a much more complete view of the salvation experience.
and don't read it with emotions, which are flexible. read and accept what it says, no matter how you " feel " about it.

gb9 - Good day to you. You seem to jump from know to believe.
I know many people, I do not believe them. I assume you know the difference being knowing
an idea and believing an idea? It is quite a big difference.

I can know humans can fly, with a jet pack, small wings, but strap me into one and I find it
very hard to believe I personally am going to fly. Belief has an aspect of putting something
on the line, where as knowing something is just knowledge, it requires no response.

 

[mj007]

I think the main thing, is that by works we retain that connection with God and are less likely to fall. They are not the reason for salvation, but they are the reason we do not fall.

Everytime we engage or express, we are doing works. So if we choose not to be loving but to be right, I think this is somewhat a fall from grace. In blindness, people often feel self-satisfied by being right, even if they are not (they don't see it). What is right, is that our works are in line with spirit. God is Love, therefore love must be our intention in all things, even if it is to strip the outer ego in others that they may be free from bondage, and in their vulnerability be able to perceive grace better. Those is bondage often say the same thing over and over, "you are wrong (I am right)"

how is this still a discussion?



Jesus saves us if we have faith (end of story)
If we have true faith and love Jesus
we have works (end of story)



so if you have works thats a SIGN you have faith
but may just be dirty rags


if you just believe and understand the Truth but no new heart then you have no works



i think if youre trying to EARN your salvation
youre off base


if youre thinking you can still live in sin with a new heart
youre off base

 

[PeterJens]

you mean like when in the whole Gospel of John, Jesus said to believe in Him to be saved, over and over.
peter, try sometimes to actually read the N.T., or better yet the whole Bible, from front to back. then you will have a much more complete view of the salvation experience.
and don't read it with emotions, which are flexible. read and accept what it says, no matter how you " feel " about it.

By the way I love the gospel of John.
John brings in a lot of theology and perspectives the other gospels leave out,
like being born again, live life to the full.

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
John 6:63

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
John 10:10

With a pure heart, purified and giving glory to God, ones emotions reflect
the living God, Halleluyah. I suggest you try it sometime.

 

[gb9]

gb9 - Good day to you. You seem to jump from know to believe.
I know many people, I do not believe them. I assume you know the difference being knowing
an idea and believing an idea? It is quite a big difference.

I can know humans can fly, with a jet pack, small wings, but strap me into one and I find it
very hard to believe I personally am going to fly. Belief has an aspect of putting something
on the line, where as knowing something is just knowledge, it requires no response.

non-responsive to what Christ said in the Gospel of John.

also, I would encourage anyone reading this to look up the definition of believe, because this ain't it. ( I don't have time to write it out, mr.jens will just argue with the dictionary anyway, but for anyone else, look it up, it has nothing to do with this post here.)

 

[Ariel82]

The demons know Jesus, they are not going to heaven.
And Jesus does not just like people, so their card is guaranteed.

Sounds like you have bought into get a free pass theology.

Sounds like you are still falsely accusing people.

No Jesus does more than "like" people. he loves us and died for us.

"The free pass theology"?

What a load of.....bovine feces.

To,be Born again means your,heart and mind are changed and confirmed into God's will and His love. Thus you are empowered to walk in His ways and have the divine blessed assurance of being accepted by God because Jesus blood allows you to be seen as righteous. His Spirit allows you to live godly lives.

If you want to label that "free pass theology" and condemn it, let it be upon your head.

 

[gb9]

By the way I love the gospel of John.
John brings in a lot of theology and perspectives the other gospels leave out,
like being born again, live life to the full.

The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
John 6:63

The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
John 10:10

With a pure heart, purified and giving glory to God, ones emotions reflect
the living God, Halleluyah. I suggest you try it sometime.

I suggest you read in context and not just pluck out verses that fit your works- based agenda. ( deception ).

 

[mj007]

Why don't you elaborate the context so that those who are reading might understand what is the deception here.

I suggest you read in context and not just pluck out verses that fit your works- based agenda. ( deception ).

 

[mj007]

So when will your heart and mind be changed?

Sounds like you are still falsely accusing people.

No Jesus does more than "like" people. he loves us and died for us.

"The free pass theology"?

What a load of.....bovine feces.

To,be Born again means your,heart and mind are changed and confirmed into God's will and His love. Thus you are empowered to walk in His ways and have the divine blessed assurance of being accepted by God because Jesus blood allows you to be seen as righteous. His Spirit allows you to live godly lives.

If you want to label that "free pass theology" and condemn it, let it be upon your head.