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A
Still our fault huh? 
The derailment was started by people coming in telling Calvinist what they believe.
It continued with Calvinist making false statements about what "free will preachers" taught.
Then it moved to personal attacks.
Again I apologize for my part in it.
However, would you let folks stand around saying YOU taught or believed that God chose people to go to hell, Forth?
Neither can I stand by and allow the lie to stand that all free will preacher teach such false doctrine as the innate goodness of mankind outside of God's grace.
Some do reject the doctrine of Original sin. But it is wrong to lump all together.
That is my point.
Oh, now you're off to pretense?
This never happened. Perhaps it exposed what you believe as being false, but no Calvinist in this thread made any false statement about what free willer's teach. Perhaps it is high time for you to own your errors, and stop bearing false witness.
Show us all one post where a Calvinist made a false statement about what free willers teach. You made the accusation, the burden of proof is on you.
This never happened. Perhaps it exposed what you believe as being false, but no Calvinist in this thread made any false statement about what free willer's teach. Perhaps it is high time for you to own your errors, and stop bearing false witness.
Show us all one post where a Calvinist made a false statement about what free willers teach. You made the accusation, the burden of proof is on you.
True.
This isn't true. Show me where.
I only bite back those who lie on me. I don't think I attacked you personally, however. I made a few statements is all.
Thank you
You jump on us for defending ourselves in this regard like we did something wrong. That's literally been happening all week in every single thread where free-will/predestination comes up. It's been a constant onslaught of lies about us from the opposition.
This is the view being espoused by some like it or not.
Doing my best not to.
This isn't true. Show me where.
I only bite back those who lie on me. I don't think I attacked you personally, however. I made a few statements is all.
Thank you
You jump on us for defending ourselves in this regard like we did something wrong. That's literally been happening all week in every single thread where free-will/predestination comes up. It's been a constant onslaught of lies about us from the opposition.
This is the view being espoused by some like it or not.
Doing my best not to.
A
You falsely accuse free will preachers of not teaching the regeneration of the heart is needed for people to be able to love and accept the Gospel and truly worship God.
This is based on the idea that free will preachers don't teach about original sin or believe in Total depravity of human nature.
That is false. Some may preach false gospel about "the goodness of human nature" but I know many who preach free will but also Original sin and the need for a savior.
Can you preach what you believe without putting others and their beliefs down?
This is based on the idea that free will preachers don't teach about original sin or believe in Total depravity of human nature.
That is false. Some may preach false gospel about "the goodness of human nature" but I know many who preach free will but also Original sin and the need for a savior.
Can you preach what you believe without putting others and their beliefs down?
They did, after that is where the separation came about, Wesley's best friend from the holy club was George Whitfield a hard core Calvinist. Yet one of the greatest evangelist in England and America. And we still have people that think the Doctrines of Grace cause people to not evangelize. The part that interests me is how could Wesley and Arminius believe in total depravity and not understand the need for God's grace to be saved.
The thing that always makes me wonder, are those that will fight tooth and nail, that it was their faith that saved them and by that faith it brought God's grace. It amazes me that someone would argue that he saved himself and not God and turn around and say we are saved by grace, when they argue faith is what saved them.
Many people know of the word grace say the word grace, but when you say that it's by God's grace alone that we are saved, they will argue that it's their faith that saved them and God did nothing that they didn't allow God to do. That makes as much since as those that pray and say "I command you Lord" how is He Lord if you human speck of dust on a larger speck of dust, are commanding the Lord that created the universes by the command of His Word? I remember I was part o that crowed and I said it once and I was so convicted that that was the first and last time I said it.
The thing that always makes me wonder, are those that will fight tooth and nail, that it was their faith that saved them and by that faith it brought God's grace. It amazes me that someone would argue that he saved himself and not God and turn around and say we are saved by grace, when they argue faith is what saved them.
Many people know of the word grace say the word grace, but when you say that it's by God's grace alone that we are saved, they will argue that it's their faith that saved them and God did nothing that they didn't allow God to do. That makes as much since as those that pray and say "I command you Lord" how is He Lord if you human speck of dust on a larger speck of dust, are commanding the Lord that created the universes by the command of His Word? I remember I was part o that crowed and I said it once and I was so convicted that that was the first and last time I said it.
Someone is being shown the errors of the false free will false gospel, and yet is still trying to breath life into that death. It is hard to kick against the goads. No man outside of Christ are free in their will, John 8:35ff.
On another note, yes, ForthAngel, you are correct, there has been a constant onslaught of lies and not only that, they are accepted lies by many others. Those who see those lies won't speak up, they too go on the same attack, or at the least turn a blind eye.
On another note, yes, ForthAngel, you are correct, there has been a constant onslaught of lies and not only that, they are accepted lies by many others. Those who see those lies won't speak up, they too go on the same attack, or at the least turn a blind eye.
A
1689 LBC: Chapter 9: "Of Free Will"
I don't see it as so different from what Wesley teaches about free will.
I don't see it as so different from what Wesley teaches about free will.
A
The Wesley Center Online: Disputation 11 - On The Free Will Of Man And Its Powers
Is there really this huge divide people claim exist or are people building strawmen to burn?
In this state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace. For Christ has said, "Without me ye can do nothing." St. Augustine, after having diligently meditated upon each word in this passage, speaks thus: "Christ does not say, without me ye can do but Little; neither does He say, without me ye can do any Arduous Thing, nor without me ye can do it with difficulty. But he says, without me ye can do Nothing! Nor does he say, without me ye cannot complete any thing; but without me ye can do Nothing." That this may be made more manifestly to appear, we will separately consider the mind, the affections or will, and the capability, as contra-distinguished from them, as well as the life itself of an unregenerate man.
8. The mind of man, in this state, is dark, destitute of the saving knowledge of God, and, according to the Apostle, incapable of those things which belong to the Spirit of God. For
"the animal man has no perception of the things of the Spirit of God;" (1 Corinthians 2:14
****
But far different from this is the consideration of the free will of man, as constituted in the third state of Renewed Righteousness. For when a new light and knowledge of God and Christ, and of the Divine will, have been kindled in his mind; and when new affections, inclinations and motions agreeing with the law of God, have been excited in his heart, and new powers have been produced in him; it comes to pass, that, being liberated from the kingdom of darkness, and being now made "light in the Lord," (Ephesians 5:8,) he understands the true and saving good; that, after the hardness of his stony heart has been changed into the softness of flesh, and the law of God according to the covenant of grace has been inscribed on it, (Jeremiah 31, 32-35,) he loves and embraces that which is good, just, and holy; and that, being made capable in Christ, co-operating now with God, he prosecutes the good which he knows and loves, and he begins himself to perform it in deed. But this, whatever it may be of knowledge, holiness and power, is all begotten within him by the Holy Spirit; who is, on this account, called "the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, of counsel and might, of knowledge and the fear of Jehovah," (Isaiah 11:2,) "the Spirit of grace," (Zechariah 12:10,) "of faith," (2 Corinthians 4:13,) "the Spirit of adoption" into sons, (Romans 8:16,) and "the Spirit of holiness;" and to whom the acts of illumination, regeneration, renovation, and confirmation, are attributed in the Scriptures.
13. But two things must be here observed. The First that this work of regeneration and illumination is not completed in one moment; but that it is advanced and promoted, from time to time, by daily increase. For "our old man is crucified, that the body of sin might be destroyed," (Romans 6:6,) and "that the inward man may be renewed day by day." (2 Corinthians 4:16.) For this reason, in regenerate persons, as long as they inhabit these mortal bodies, "the flesh lusteth against the Spirit." (Galatians 5:17.)
***14. The Second thing to be observed is, that as the very first commencement of every good thing, so likewise the progress, continuance and confirmation, nay, even the perseverance in good, are not from ourselves, but from God through the Holy Spirit. For
"he who hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ;" (Philippians 1:6
and
"we are kept by the power of God through faith." (1 Peter 1:5.)
"The God of all grace makes us perfect, stablishes, strengthens and settles us." (1:10.)
8. The mind of man, in this state, is dark, destitute of the saving knowledge of God, and, according to the Apostle, incapable of those things which belong to the Spirit of God. For
"the animal man has no perception of the things of the Spirit of God;" (1 Corinthians 2:14
****
But far different from this is the consideration of the free will of man, as constituted in the third state of Renewed Righteousness. For when a new light and knowledge of God and Christ, and of the Divine will, have been kindled in his mind; and when new affections, inclinations and motions agreeing with the law of God, have been excited in his heart, and new powers have been produced in him; it comes to pass, that, being liberated from the kingdom of darkness, and being now made "light in the Lord," (Ephesians 5:8,) he understands the true and saving good; that, after the hardness of his stony heart has been changed into the softness of flesh, and the law of God according to the covenant of grace has been inscribed on it, (Jeremiah 31, 32-35,) he loves and embraces that which is good, just, and holy; and that, being made capable in Christ, co-operating now with God, he prosecutes the good which he knows and loves, and he begins himself to perform it in deed. But this, whatever it may be of knowledge, holiness and power, is all begotten within him by the Holy Spirit; who is, on this account, called "the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, of counsel and might, of knowledge and the fear of Jehovah," (Isaiah 11:2,) "the Spirit of grace," (Zechariah 12:10,) "of faith," (2 Corinthians 4:13,) "the Spirit of adoption" into sons, (Romans 8:16,) and "the Spirit of holiness;" and to whom the acts of illumination, regeneration, renovation, and confirmation, are attributed in the Scriptures.
13. But two things must be here observed. The First that this work of regeneration and illumination is not completed in one moment; but that it is advanced and promoted, from time to time, by daily increase. For "our old man is crucified, that the body of sin might be destroyed," (Romans 6:6,) and "that the inward man may be renewed day by day." (2 Corinthians 4:16.) For this reason, in regenerate persons, as long as they inhabit these mortal bodies, "the flesh lusteth against the Spirit." (Galatians 5:17.)
***14. The Second thing to be observed is, that as the very first commencement of every good thing, so likewise the progress, continuance and confirmation, nay, even the perseverance in good, are not from ourselves, but from God through the Holy Spirit. For
"he who hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ;" (Philippians 1:6
and
"we are kept by the power of God through faith." (1 Peter 1:5.)
"The God of all grace makes us perfect, stablishes, strengthens and settles us." (1:10.)
A
I made a comment on what someone else said in this thread..go back and call them out. Some Calvinist said that it was true.
.I have no clue what you believe (for or against condemning babies)
I know ForthAngel is against, so hopefully he understood the point I was making.
Which part do you recommend? Baptism?
.I have no clue what you believe (for or against condemning babies)
I know ForthAngel is against, so hopefully he understood the point I was making.
Which part do you recommend? Baptism?