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You want to read some hyper-Calvinist stuff go to Out Side the Camp or as Sproul calls them, the hypers, sub-Calvinist or anti-Calvinist. It looks like their site is under construction, maybe some updates. I don't think they can fellowship with anyone according to their own guidelines. They say fellowship with an arminian is sin. They have called just about every Calvinist teacher a heretic and all Arminian teachers. They've called Murry, Pink, Spurgeon, I believe very teacher at Westminster Seminary.
Oh, still skipping over your false accusations of Calvinists and myself, and drumming up something other? How convenient.
Seeing you just falsely "put me down" with the above, I deleted the balance of your post lamenting falsely others as doing this while you do it yourself.
You say free willers speak of regeneration being necessary prior to conversion.
Really?
You don't know what you're talking about.
They call this prevenient grace, and it is not biblical regeneration, in fact it isn't regeneration at all.
Seeing you just falsely "put me down" with the above, I deleted the balance of your post lamenting falsely others as doing this while you do it yourself.
You say free willers speak of regeneration being necessary prior to conversion.
Really?
You don't know what you're talking about.
They call this prevenient grace, and it is not biblical regeneration, in fact it isn't regeneration at all.
A
This is an article that explains it from a reform perceptive.
Someone gave me the website and said it taught Reform theology.
Reformed Theology Vs. Hyper-Calvinism by Michael Horton
The concept of "common grace" in contrast to "saving grace" is worth noting.
Someone gave me the website and said it taught Reform theology.
Reformed Theology Vs. Hyper-Calvinism by Michael Horton
The concept of "common grace" in contrast to "saving grace" is worth noting.
Last edited by a moderator:
Well when you look at the symbolism of baptism it mimics the flood in noahs days. Its symbolic to wash away the old self and a promise you will live for Christ. They ask these questions and you except and then baptized.
So i suppose there way of thinking was baptism is a covenant made for the new believer. So they named the ceremony baptism to the covenant that the parents make to raise that child in God and then they bless the child.
Its not a saving baptism. I was baptized as a infant but then as i grew and excepted Christ my church baptized me with the Spirit, you know the great commission wording.
Other than that idk why they named it that, i guess to confuse people.
So i suppose there way of thinking was baptism is a covenant made for the new believer. So they named the ceremony baptism to the covenant that the parents make to raise that child in God and then they bless the child.
Its not a saving baptism. I was baptized as a infant but then as i grew and excepted Christ my church baptized me with the Spirit, you know the great commission wording.
Other than that idk why they named it that, i guess to confuse people.
A
Yeah....and the misrepresentation continues...
Our Wesleyan Heritage - The United Methodist Church
Prevenient grace sounds like what that other article calls "common grace" and justifying grace would be "saving grace"
Our Wesleyan Heritage - The United Methodist Church
Prevenient grace sounds like what that other article calls "common grace" and justifying grace would be "saving grace"
Kaylagrl: Guess you see now the can of worms you kicked over.......... 
Anyway, don't know if you are getting any Scriptural evidence concerning Calvin's Tulip Theology or not...........so consider this information a person I have followed from time to time made on another Forum Site. His screen name there is Chestertonrules. I want to give him full credit for the information provided. Hope it helps:
1) Total Depravity: The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
This reasoning is flawed and unscriptural for two reasons. First, Christ has made all men alive to God's grace. God's grace can reach out to all men and salvation can be made available to those who cooperate with this grace. Original sin does not force God to predestine some men to Hell.
1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Rom 5:18
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2) Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
This reasoning is flawed because scripture is explicit that our thoughts, prayers, and actions while on earth determine our eternal destiny.
Romans 2
6 God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Matt 6:15
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.
Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
3) Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect.
This view is directly contradicted by scripture.
1 John 2:1,2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 12:31-32 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Timothy 2:3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
4) Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted.
Contradicted by scripture:
1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".
2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".
Matt 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Rev 3:20
ere I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
5) Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation.
What the bible says:
2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".
2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".
James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways, will have saved a soul from death".
John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
Anyway, don't know if you are getting any Scriptural evidence concerning Calvin's Tulip Theology or not...........so consider this information a person I have followed from time to time made on another Forum Site. His screen name there is Chestertonrules. I want to give him full credit for the information provided. Hope it helps:1) Total Depravity: The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
This reasoning is flawed and unscriptural for two reasons. First, Christ has made all men alive to God's grace. God's grace can reach out to all men and salvation can be made available to those who cooperate with this grace. Original sin does not force God to predestine some men to Hell.
1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Rom 5:18
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2) Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
This reasoning is flawed because scripture is explicit that our thoughts, prayers, and actions while on earth determine our eternal destiny.
Romans 2
6 God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Matt 6:15
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.
Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
3) Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect.
This view is directly contradicted by scripture.
1 John 2:1,2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 12:31-32 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
1 Tim 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Timothy 2:3,4 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
4) Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted.
Contradicted by scripture:
1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".
2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".
Matt 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
Ezekiel 18:23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Rev 3:20
ere I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
5) Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation.
What the bible says:
2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".
2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."
1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".
James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways, will have saved a soul from death".
John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".
This has never been the case. You're begging the question. There has never been a case wherein all people had the chance for salvation.
Yes, I will pray for you.
Utter nonsense, people are already condemned prior to hearing the truth, read John 3:16ff. If not, then leave them alone, they only become condemned after hearing you attempt to preach the Gospel to them. Do you even listen to the nonsense you teach???
Yes, actually you have. No one outside of Christ is free in their will, John 8:35ff.
Yes, I will pray for you.
Utter nonsense, people are already condemned prior to hearing the truth, read John 3:16ff. If not, then leave them alone, they only become condemned after hearing you attempt to preach the Gospel to them. Do you even listen to the nonsense you teach???
Yes, actually you have. No one outside of Christ is free in their will, John 8:35ff.
A
Reformed Theology Vs. Hyper-Calvinism by Michael Horton
It makes sense to me that God gives the world different types of grace.
Both sides of the camp agree on that principle, even if they use different names.
The general grace of blessing people with life and the ability to choose right or wrong. The saving or justifying grace that causes people to be born again believers.
It makes sense to me that God gives the world different types of grace.
Both sides of the camp agree on that principle, even if they use different names.
The general grace of blessing people with life and the ability to choose right or wrong. The saving or justifying grace that causes people to be born again believers.
