God hating you before you're born?

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preacher4truth said:
Hey, just a thought while you're dealing with the recent troll who joined.

People mock the Gospel call to the elect, and then come up with the free will gospel. Their argument is that since it is left up to us and our free will concerning salvation, then that is true love on the part of God and on the part of the one coming to God by their own free will. They did it because they love God so much. That's pure Pelagianism by the way.

But that is how dangerous the free will gospel is. They come to God out of their own love for God that is inherent within them and shows forth their true love. Just the thought of that makes me want to puke. Yet this is all contrary to Scripture - the lost hate God and are hostile toward Him. So rather than this truth, their false gospel paints a lovely picture of themselves, where they can pat themselves on the back because all along they really loved God and then came to him out of their true love in spite of Scripture showing this to be a deceptive lie.

This false free will gospel is what could derogatorily be described as the belief system of an elitist, self-righteous, entitled group. It is smug arrogance, it is in the face of God and it is against true revelation in Scripture.
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I get you, but what can you do when so many people believe in free will and that they chose God? I do hope God doesn't take that into consideration when counting the elect, whether they believe it's their choosing, or God choosing them as we believe.
 
"Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation,
a) I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith
b) that was once for all delivered to the saints.
c) For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people,
d) who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
e) Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt,
f) afterward destroyed those who did not believe. "
Jude 1

You have it pretty much all here.

1. Faith is the gift of God, given to saints once for all (God's side)
2. But it is necessary to warn the saints that they must fight for their faith (our side)
3. Certain people were designated for the condemnation (God's side)
4. These designated people pervert the grace of our Lord (our side)
5. Jesus saved people from Egypt.
6. And then Jesus destroyed those who did not believe.


So why are you still arguing which one is it. Its both!
 
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Marano said:
I get you, but what can you do when so many people believe in free will and that they chose God? I do hope God doesn't take that into consideration when counting the elect, whether they believe it's their choosing, or God choosing them as we believe.
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Don't have to believe in it to be one of the elect. We all confirm the Gospel as the way. The problem is that those devoid of the Spirit will never come to an understanding of the truth, so when people continually reject half of what is written, it becomes a cause for concern.
 
ForthAngel said:
Don't have to believe in it to be one of the elect. We all confirm the Gospel as the way. The problem is that those devoid of the Spirit will never come to an understanding of the truth, so when people continually reject half of what is written, it becomes a cause for concern.
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Again there's only so much you can do, you tell them the truth, show them scripture, but they just don't seem to understand it, so at that point it's not up to me to change people's mind any more, only the holy spirit can do that and I do believe no one can see these truths if the holy spirit doesn't show them.
 
Marano said:
Again there's only so much you can do, you tell them the truth, show them scripture, but they just don't seem to understand it, so at that point it's not up to me to change people's mind any more, only the holy spirit can do that and I do believe no one can see these truths if the holy spirit doesn't show them.
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For sure.

,
 
OneFaith said:
God foreknowing the choices we would make with our freewill, does not mean we do not have freewill. Therefore, God can say, even before someone is born, that He hates them, just as He can say that after they've lived a full life and died. Foreknowing does not take away someone's freewill. For example...

I am in the other room, and hear the cookie jar rattle. I know that when I go in the kitchen that I will find my daughter eating a cookie. Does that mean I forced her to? Of course not. Or again, let's say I'm at the train station, and see a train about to pass by. If I foreknow that the person driving that train will pass me, does that mean he had no freewill to do so? Of course not. Foreknowing what another will do does not take away their freewill decision to do it. God foreknew Judas would betray Christ, it was prophesied, but it was his freewill decision. And God can say He hates him before God even created the world.

Now another mention...

When God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it does not mean Pharoah was a puppet with no freewill. Example; if I throw a ball up in the air, and it bounces off my head, I can make the statement "God bounced a ball off my head." How so? God created gravity, physics, cause & reaction, me, the earth, etc. God set reaction in nature. It is human nature, when someone wrongs you, to react with revengeful thoughts, and to close off your vulnerability so that people can't hurt your heart again. The heart becomes hard and callused, and mean "I'll hurt you before you hurt me."

BUT a heart led by the Spirit does not have natural human reaction. When hurt, it forgives, and even cares for the one who hurt it. "Father please forgive them, they don't fully understand what they are doing."

So whether a heart responds with hatred or with love, is that heart's freewill decision. But both choices are put there by God. I can throw a ball up in the air, and quickly move out of the way, or block it with my hand to keep it from bouncing off my head. My point is we do have freewill choices to make- which will determine which reaction God has set in place.

Cause: If we do not obey God, Reaction: we go to hell.
Cause: If we obey God, Reaction: we go to heaven.

Just because God created both of these causes and reactions, does not mean we do not have freewill choice.
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Thank you I really liked your explanation, it seems clear. Reaching this point, and after all the contributions of all of you awesome people, somehow I was already thinking that BOTH answers (that we have full free will and everything is already decided by God since the beginning of times) are both true in the infinite Mystery and Wisdom of Creation. We don't need to understand it with our limited brains, just rely on these few moments in life when the heart trascends human sentiment and feels a glimpse of Understanding, fleeting as it may be, based on the fact that we don't really need to acknowledge everything, just follow what God tells us to do, follow our hearts (not the liar heart, the purified heart of God in us). We are sheep after all following a Shepherd who is greater than us so let it be, let it go, let us be sheep and follow God and enjoy God. Ain't that a beautiful fact? Many many many blessings!!! :)
 
ForthAngel said:
Don't have to believe in it to be one of the elect. We all confirm the Gospel as the way. The problem is that those devoid of the Spirit will never come to an understanding of the truth, so when people continually reject half of what is written, it becomes a cause for concern.
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Crappola......
 
psalm6819 said:
Crappola......
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Great refutation. I have seen the error of my ways. You are so blessed to be filled with so much truth, knowledge and wisdom. How was I ever so blind? Such an assertion devoid of any real meaning can't go without praise, so thank you for opening my eyes.
 
ForthAngel said:
Great refutation. I have seen the error of my ways. You are so blessed to be filled with so much truth, knowledge and wisdom. How was I ever so blind? Such an assertion devoid of any real meaning can't go without praise, so thank you for opening my eyes.
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I knew that if she spoke your language, you would see it.
 
Willie-T said:
I knew that if she spoke your language, you would see it.
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What does your wife think when you speak to people like this?
I ask because you used to be quite ready to share her judgments
upon people here, and I have wondered if she did the same to you,
or if she turned a blind eye, as it were? I do hope she is well. Seriously.
 
Magenta said:
What does your wife think when you speak to people like this?
I ask because you used to be quite ready to share her judgments
upon people here, and I have wondered if she did the same to you,
or if she turned a blind eye, as it were? I do hope she is well. Seriously.
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There are only a few things my wife thinks are useless, and these forums are right at the top of the list. LOL
 
i had to get you off that 666 likes, but anyway, we don't really understand who we are or what we are clearly enough to get the big picture. i've said in the past that God turned Adam and Eve loose in the garden on their own, without his help to take care of the garden., his first command to them was to be fruitful and multiply. something they had to do on their own without his help. A parable or example; you purchased two rabbits, took them home, put them in a cage, and you tell them, even though they don't understand., to get to it ,mate,and make little rabbits. what more can you do except watch. the outcome of their character depends on them.,but God knows how you are going to turn out, and what direction you are heading in.Then he knows how to use you.
 
psalm6819 said:
Crappola......
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it would be all crappola, without the bible.
yes you can have an opinion. but what good is an opinion, if it always falls short of basic bible school, it again would call for your own rendition of crappola. being an echoing gong of someone else s life and works, and never reaching your own call or worth in god. etc
 
Gabriel2020 said:
i had to get you off that 666 likes, but anyway, we don't really understand who we are or what we are clearly enough to get the big picture. i've said in the past that God turned Adam and Eve loose in the garden on their own, without his help to take care of the garden., his first command to them was to be fruitful and multiply. something they had to do on their own without his help. A parable or example; you purchased two rabbits, took them home, put them in a cage, and you tell them, even though they don't understand., to get to it ,mate,and make little rabbits. what more can you do except watch. the outcome of their character depends on them.,but God knows how you are going to turn out, and what direction you are heading in.Then he knows how to use you.
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you claim to see the big picture , yet cannot understand romans chapter 5.
when did it depend on you to think for others. and with no direction ,all you ever will have a blind faith. i am not your sunday school teacher, to explain blindness. etc
 
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