Not By Works

[Chris1975]

My goodness. You do realize that David was in the Old Covenant???

Here is another scripture from the Old Covenant. Looks like we are all in trouble.

Here is a scripture that says that if anyone who has ever sinned against God will be blotted out of the book. This means that all of us have been blotted out of God's book for who has not ever sinned? No one.

Exodus 32:33 (NASB)
[SUP]33 [/SUP] The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.


This is a true statement but it is not the ultimate statement of truth because what Christ did on the cross and resurrection trumps this truth.

Everything in the bible is truly stated but not everything is a statement of ultimate truth.

All scripture needs to be filtered through the cross and resurrection of Christ's work or else we will be mixing up the covenants and ruining the purpose of them both - just like Jesus said.

[h=3]Lying to the Holy Spirit[/h]5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? [SUP]4 [/SUP]While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”

She said, “Yes, for so much.”

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. [SUP]11 [/SUP]So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.




- let me guess, you think they were then saved. Translated from this disobedience into the welcoming arms of God.

 

[Seohce]

I would be careful saying things in Jesus name, Especially when there was no wisdom there. Only conjecture and opinion, not based on fact.

No place in that passage does it say Saul lost salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and that from childhood thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly equipped for all good works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lets use pink.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the Lord has departed from you and has become your enemy?


Up to 6 point font now.

You can go to 120 point

It still does not say he lost his salvation.

It says God does not talk to him anymore. It does not say he is no longer saved..

Nice try, but no cigar. The prodigal son could not talk to his father either, and his father could not talk to him while he was away from him, He was still the son.

God stopped talking to saul as king of Isreal. thats it, Your trying to relate this to salvation. YOU CAN"T

 

[eternally-gratefull]

[SUP]Deuteronomy 31
7 [/SUP]Then Moses called Joshua and said to him in the sight of all Israel, “Be strong and of good courage, for you must go with this people to the land which the Lord has sworn to their fathers to give them, and you shall cause them to inherit it. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And the Lord, He is the One who goes before you. He will be with you, He will not leave you nor forsake you; do not fear nor be dismayed.”

The Law to Be Read Every Seven Years

[SUP]9 [/SUP]So Moses wrote this law and delivered it to the priests, the sons of Levi, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel. [SUP]10 [/SUP]And Moses commanded them, saying: “At the end of every seven years, at the appointed time in the year of release, at the Feast of Tabernacles, [SUP]11 [/SUP]when all Israel comes to appear before the Lord your God in the place which He chooses, you shall read this law before all Israel in their hearing. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Gather the people together, men and women and little ones, and the stranger who is within your gates, that they may hear and that they may learn to fear the Lord your God and carefully observe all the words of this law, [SUP]13 [/SUP]and that their children, who have not known it, may hear and learn to fear the Lord your God as long as you live in the land which you cross the Jordan to possess.”

Prediction of Israel’s Rebellion

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Then the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, the days approach when you must die; call Joshua, and present yourselves in the tabernacle of meeting, that I may inaugurate him.”

So Moses and Joshua went and presented themselves in the tabernacle of meeting. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Now the Lord appeared at the tabernacle in a pillar of cloud, and the pillar of cloud stood above the door of the tabernacle.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses: “Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, ‘Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?’ [SUP]18 [/SUP]And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the evil which they have done, in that they have turned to other gods.


- so to you who quote the verses that the Lord will never leave or forsake his children - lets look at the above verses, and see if there is a CONDITION attached.
- in the same chapter that the Lord promises to never leave or forsake his children, He says he will forsake them and hide His face from them.
- can any of you SEE why this is not a contradiction (note: I have highlighted with colour to make it easier to find the treasures in these woods).

Mosaic law was a conditional covenant

No one was ever saved by following the mosaic covenant.

Nice try, Just continue to prove you are preaching law and works.. You will further alienate yourself.

 

[Chris1975]

And in addition, the New Testament writers had as their 'bible' only the Old Testament scriptures

 

[eternally-gratefull]

if you keep reading, you know, the rest of the O.T., God never abandoned Israel, even promising to be with them in Babylon, and then bringing them back.....

have some of you guys ever read the Bible. you know, all of it.........

Amen, and he will restor them when they repent.

People want to try to relate this to the salvation of an individual when it is not talking about that, it is talking about a nation being blessed by God or punished by God.

 

[Chris1975]

You can go to 120 point

It still does not say he lost his salvation.

It says God does not talk to him anymore. It does not say he is no longer saved..

Nice try, but no cigar. The prodigal son could not talk to his father either, and his father could not talk to him while he was away from him, He was still the son.

God stopped talking to saul as king of Isreal. thats it, Your trying to relate this to salvation. YOU CAN"T

Desperately trying to hold onto your doctrine?

 

[Grace777x70]

Lying to the Holy Spirit

5 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And he kept back part of the proceeds, his wife also being aware of it, and brought a certain part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? [SUP]4 [/SUP]While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried him out, and buried him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. [SUP]8 [/SUP]And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”

She said, “Yes, for so much.”

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. [SUP]11 [/SUP]So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.




- let me guess, you think they were then saved. Translated from this disobedience into the welcoming arms of God.

No they were not Christians as you suppose. They were trying to come in on what the true believers were doing and to get things from them.

Acts 5:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land?

Christ lives in the heart of the believer and satan can't kick Christ out.

Notice also that in verse 10 - "That none of the others dare associate" with the believers. Apparently there were "others" trying to do the same thing that Ananians and His wife tried to do.

Acts 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] But none of the rest dared to associate with them; however, the people held them in high esteem.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG
What did your good friend show you?
What changed?
Maybe this has to do with personality.
I don't worry about anything.
There would be so much to do that it would be impossible.
So I just gave up and do what I can.
That's all anybody can do.
Jesus fills in the gaps...

He showed me to stop trying to earn Gods love and favor by how good I am, and just go out and serve God and hen I fall repent, and get back on the horse and move on.

My salvation is secure I have nothing to fear. Because God will never leave me.

I gained huge victory over a lot of sin once I finally put that in my head that I am secure in christ, sealed with the spirit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

From David: pleading prayer from him to the Lord (prayer of repentance)

Psalm 51
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Thats the OT, Do you even read the bible? You are really hurting your testimony here..

The HS was not given as a seal until AFTER the cross..

Thats why God removed it from Saul, and could have removed it from david.

Yet david was still called a man after Gods heart. his salvation was never threatened, his kingship was.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

WHAT DOES USING BIG FONT HAVE TO DO WITH WHAT YOU'RE SAYING??

He thinks he is smart, and has me, So if he makes the font bigger, I must believe him.

He thought wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

2 Timothy 3:15-17 and that from childhood thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly equipped for all good works.

so this proves saul or anyone else lost salvation?

Not sure what your point is.. But wow dude..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And in addition, the New Testament writers had as their 'bible' only the Old Testament scriptures

David understood grace.. Sadly, You are still in the dark about what Grace is..

You can not LOSE somethign you can not EARN

David understood it,, Abraham did also. Both were declaired righteous children of God before they did one work, and commited all their horrible sins.

 

[Grace777x70]

Unfortunately many works-based believers have used Ananias and Sapphira for trying to instill fear and condemnation into the believers.

Here is a Christ-focused view of this story. I like to use this site as it has at the bottom of the article where we can ask questions. We usually have the same questions and sometimes I learn a lot there too.

What about Ananias and Sapphira?

Recently in Connecticut, a pastor stood in front of his church and confessed to the sin of adultery. Then the pastor fell down dead, right in front of everyone. This proves that God expects his people to live holy lives and if they don’t, he’ll kill them.

Of course, that’s complete nonsense. The story is true – a Connecticut pastor really did die – but the interpretation is all wrong. The fact is, God doesn’t treat us as our sins deserve. But what are we to make of Ananias and Sapphira who, like the poor pastor, dropped dead in a church (Acts 5:1-11)?

The bizarre deaths of Ananias and Sapphira have been debated for 2,000 years. Why did they die? Did God kill them? Why did God kill them? Why is this story in the Bible? Am I supposed to learn something from it? What? Will God kill me if I lie?

Questions like these have provided sermon material for countless fear-mongers. “God killed Ananias and Sapphira because they sinned and if you’re not careful he’ll kill you too!

So fear God and behave yourself.” Has there ever been a more damnable lie inflicted on those whom God loves? (Actually, I can think of several worse lies.)

Unpunishable on account of Jesus

I could give you a hundred scriptures to show you that God did not kill Ananias and Sapphira for their sins and to assure you that he won’t kill you for yours, but three should suffice:

(God) doesn’t punish us as our sins deserve. (Psalm 103:10, CEV)

The punishment that brought us peace was on him… (Isa 53:5b)

God is not counting people’s sins against them. (2 Cor 5:19b)

The very good news of Jesus is that your sins and my sins and the sins of that Connecticut pastor and the sins of Ananias and Sapphira were condemned on the cross and there is nothing left to condemn! God was angry with your sins, which is why he poured out his wrath and dealt with them once and for all at Calvary (Rom 8:3).


Those who accuse God of killing sinners are confused about the cross. God doesn’t kill sinners, he saves sinners. God doesn’t hate sinners, he loves them!

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Rom 5:8)

If God killed Ananias and Sapphira then the Bible is wrong and Jesus is not the Lamb of God who carried the sins of the world. (If you’re wondering about Herod, read this.)

There’s no shortage of sinners in this world. Why would God kill one couple and leave the rest alone?

I’ve heard it said that God killed Ananias and Sapphira to warn and purify the infant church. By making an example out of these hypocrites, the church would be filled with a holy fear and kept safe from liars and cheats.

If so, then God failed spectacularly. Liars, cheats and hypocrites have always been with us, and there were plenty in the New Testament church.

I’ve also heard it said that God set up this killing to establish the authority of his apostles. Never mind that Peter had been commissioned by the Lord and filled with the Holy Spirit. Like a kid going through a gangster initiation he had to kill someone to establish his bona fides.

How absurd! How utterly inconsistent with the message Peter had been commissioned to preach.

Meanwhile back in Connecticut

People sometimes ask me, “Did God kill Ananias and Sapphira?” When I reply in the negative I am invariably asked, “So who did?” as though there was some murder mystery to be solved. But the facts of their deaths may be more prosaic.

The pastor in Connecticut died from a sudden heart failure, which is very sad. Perhaps it was the stress of hiding a lie or losing his reputation that triggered the attack. At the time of his death there was speculation in the press that he didn’t plan to confess at all – the adultery was a long time ago – but he had been ambushed by church members who had heard about his affair.

Emotions were running high. There was shouting. The man died. Whatever happened, it’s a sad story. But I am struck by the similarities between the Connecticut story and the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira:

• By having a secret affair, you could argue that the pastor lied to his church and he lied to God, as did Ananias and Sapphira.
• The pastor was confronted by church members, as were Ananias and Sapphira.
• The pastor dropped down dead, just like Ananias and Sapphira.

As far as I know, no one is blaming God for the pastor’s death, so why would anyone blame him for the deaths of Ananias and Sapphira? If you must blame someone, blame sin. Sin kills people. Sin ruins marriages and destroys lives. Sin is bad.

And this is exactly why Jesus came – so that you might be free from the curse of sin and live. If there is any takeaway from the Ananias and Sapphira story, it’s that the wages of sin is death.

That’s the bad news. But the good news is that God is good, he doesn’t treat you as your sins deserve, and he freely gives life to sinners.

Here is the link if anyone is interested in the questions that arise.

https://escapetoreality.org/2015/04/09/what-about-ananias-and-sapphira/

 

[Seohce]

I would be careful saying things in Jesus name, Especially when there was no wisdom there. Only conjecture and opinion, not based on fact.

No place in that passage does it say Saul lost salvation.

It's funny how you keep looking for the phrase "lost salvation" in the scriptures but fail to show any proof that the phrases "FAITH ALONE SAVES" and "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" are found in the scriptures. Sorry bro but you can't stop anyone from praising God rather than finding fault in other peoples faith.

 

[Chris1975]

Mosaic law was a conditional covenant

No one was ever saved by following the mosaic covenant.

Nice try, Just continue to prove you are preaching law and works.. You will further alienate yourself.

Remember the oft quoted John 3:16 [SUP]16 [/SUP]For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

- that's conditional. Belief is safety. Unbelief is condemnation

Now lets read further, together:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. [SUP]18 [/SUP]“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [SUP]19 [/SUP]And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”


- the linking of belief with obedience. You cannot go very far in the bible without stumbling across this again and again.
- so who are those who believe? It is those who DO the truth. Their deeds can be seen (consistent with James, isn't it)
- so who are those who don't believe? men who love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

- stop lying to yourselves. You cannot have Christ and Disobedience.
- repent of this mindset before its too late.
- believe on Christ, sincerely. He will give you the power to walk in His ways.
- if however you love your sin, then you are free to believe in this other doctrine where obedience is 'optional' or possibly irrelevant. This will however not save you.

 

[Chris1975]

David understood grace.. Sadly, You are still in the dark about what Grace is..

You can not LOSE somethign you can not EARN

David understood it,, Abraham did also. Both were declaired righteous children of God before they did one work, and commited all their horrible sins.

You cannot earn grace. For we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Your faith can be shipwrecked. And if your faith is shipwrecked, you do not have His grace. That is why there are a myriad of warnings about protecting your faith in the bible.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Desperately trying to hold onto your doctrine?

Nah that would be you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You cannot earn grace. For we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Your faith can be shipwrecked. And if your faith is shipwrecked, you do not have His grace. That is why there are a myriad of warnings about protecting your faith in the bible.

Keep believing that.

My faith is in God, God will never fail me, so it will never be shipwrecked.

I will always believe I am sinner, that will never change

I will always trust in god to save me, that will never change

Now. trusting God in certain areas of my life Yes, that can fall to the wayside, But my salvation is not dependent on that, I was born of blood. Blood can not be broken.

 

[Grace777x70]

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance.

Getting "saved" is simple as we respond to the message of Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection.

This is what makes us one with the Lord for all eternity. This is where the Holy Spirit whom Jesus said will be in us forever. John 14:16

I can assure everyone that the Lord Jesus Christ is not a liar.

Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2)

you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)

you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.