Calvinists,Im Asking...

[Grandpa]

No didn't see that link.

It's pretty easy to see that faith is a gift of God. The question of why does one person believe and another one doesn't? God works in their lives to bring about a humble and contrite heart that is good soil for the Seed to grow into faith in Jesus finished work alone.

Perhaps in some people the process of regeneration equals new birth and automatic faith in the gospel.

I always believed that the point a person is born again is when they receive the Holy Spirit and that only happens AFTER the confession of faith in Jesus from the heart by the mouth. Its a work of God to get a person to that point,but I don't believe a person can be truly called Christian without the Confession of faith and seal of the Holy Spirit. Before that point, I believe they can fall away because they don't acknowledge having a personal intimate relationship with God. The worries of the world or temptation of riches, or Satan can steal all thoughts of God and their need for a Savior from their mind.

I still have a hard time accepting that regeneration means rebirth or to be born again.

I see it as when God restore the natural state of Adam before the fall to mankind. That God freed everyone from the curse of Adam's sin, and gave them the Law. However like Adam, we all fail in keeping it fully. Therefore it's not Adam's sin that condemns us, but our own,

By God's grace He gives us a Savior, if we but believe He can wash us clean.

God gives us the faith by His grace to believe and I don't believe He gives this faith to everyone. He gives the gospel to everyone but only those who have good soil will grow faith that causes confession that causes the Holy Spirit to come and make people born again children of God. God makes the good soil by showing us the rocks and thorns in our hearts and mind through the Law and our inability to keep it and our life circumstances.
****

So the concept that people are born again before confessing faith in Jesus seems to me to be at odds with scripture.

I will have to go back and re-read them.

We see these things as "steps" or "stages"... If we do this then God does this...

Which is kind of the reason we don't entirely get it.

It seems to us that we are brought slowly to regeneration or re-birth, the state of being born again. But I think the only thing slow about it is our recognition or understanding of what has happened inside of us.

Galatians 5:22-23
[FONT=&quot]22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

One of the fruits of the spirit is Faith. We think this faith comes from ourselves and we are the cause of our profession of Christ and coming to Him to be reborn.

But when we study and put all the scripture together we find out that it is the Lord who has led us all along.

We didn't start out with anything that gave us an advantage over anyone else. We weren't smarter. We weren't more righteous. We didn't have more faith. We were given a Gift. And we learned that this gift is comprised of many blessings. I don't think we have learned what all of those blessings are yet.


[/FONT]

 

[Ariel82]

kg, the reformed believe the atonement actually accomplished something.

we believe it didn't just make salvation possible, but rather Christ truly atoned for the sins of His people.
He actually propitiated God's wrath in their behalf.

because if the Lord Jesus paid for everyone's sin, then everyone's sin has been atoned for, and everyone should be in the Kingdom.

does that make sense?

What I have been taught is that what Jesus did on the cross was powerful enough to pay for everyone's sins,but only those who have a saving faith are actually washed clean by the Blood of Christ.

So even though the act of atonement was for all of humanity, it is only effective in those who have saving faith (which is a gift from God, which is different from a heathens faith or a devils faith in God),

The way I understand it is by looking at the Passover in Egypt.

Only those who had blood on the mantle of the door AND STAYED INSIDE were saved from the plague,but people could still not place the Blood on the threshhold or chose to walk outside.

People can still chose not to accept Jesus or walk away from Him.

However there is something special happening in the hearts and minds of those who chose to stay and follow God. What may begin as fear of God because of true understanding of the Law and how we are rightly condemned; may be transformed into love by the grace shown through the gospel message; and faith in Christ alone for our salvation.

Some people say it was their spreading of the Blood that saved the Israelites in Eygpt, but it was God's mercy and grace that saved them. The blood was a message to God's avenging angels, but it was God's power that stopped and moved them..not the blood itself,

The difference between a magic charm or idol and a saving faith in the Living God.

 

[Ariel82]

We see these things as "steps" or "stages"... If we do this then God does this...

Which is kind of the reason we don't entirely get it.

It seems to us that we are brought slowly to regeneration or re-birth, the state of being born again. But I think the only thing slow about it is our recognition or understanding of what has happened inside of us.

Galatians 5:22-23
[FONT=&quot]22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

One of the fruits of the spirit is Faith. We think this faith comes from ourselves and we are the cause of our profession of Christ and coming to Him to be reborn.

But when we study and put all the scripture together we find out that it is the Lord who has led us all along.

We didn't start out with anything that gave us an advantage over anyone else. We weren't smarter. We weren't more righteous. We didn't have more faith. We were given a Gift. And we learned that this gift is comprised of many blessings. I don't think we have learned what all of those blessings are yet.


[/FONT]

Do you believe one of the stages is realising that the faith we have was a gift from God?

I agree we are still learning the many blessing God has already bestowed upon us. All praise and glory be to God.

 

[miknik5]

What I have been taught is that what Jesus did on the cross was powerful enough to pay for everyone's sins,but only those who have a saving faith are actually washed clean by the Blood of Christ.

So even though the act of atonement was for all of humanity, it is only effective in those who have saving faith (which is a gift from God, which is different from a heathens faith or a devils faith in God),

The way I understand it is by looking at the Passover in Egypt.

Only those who had blood on the mantle of the door AND STAYED INSIDE were saved from the plague,but people could still not place the Blood on the threshhold or chose to walk outside.

People can still chose not to accept Jesus or walk away from Him.

However there is something special happening in the hearts and minds of those who chose to stay and follow God. What may begin as fear of God because of true understanding of the Law and how we are rightly condemned; may be transformed into love by the grace shown through the gospel message; and faith in Christ alone for our salvation.

Some people say it was their spreading of the Blood that saved the Israelites in Eygpt, but it was God's mercy and grace that saved them. The blood was a message to God's avenging angels, but it was God's power that stopped and moved them..not the blood itself,

The difference between a magic charm or idol and a saving faith in the Living God.

Ariel,

it was HIS BLOOD that stopped the avenging angel of death
the angel would see the blood marking their "houses" and would pass over

 

[Grace777x70]

Personally I believe that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega of all things that come from God in relation to us humans that He loves dearly.

He is the Aleph and Tav. The author and finisher of faith. He is the source of all things that are good and pure and lovely.

Without Him - we can do nothing.

 

[ForthAngel]

Personally I believe that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega of all things that come from God in relation to us humans that He loves dearly.

He is the Aleph and Tav. The author and finisher of faith. He is the source of all things that are good and pure and lovely.

Without Him - we can do nothing.

Except choose to believe in him

Arminians are so inconsistent.

 

[miknik5]

One of the reasons we remain in HIM is because as 1john 2 says, we keep ever before us what we began in

THE GIFT of GOD
That CHRIST died so that what was dead might be made alive to GOD through faith in HIS SON

We are truly covered in HIS COVERING

For just as the WORD has said, there will be those who will "go out" from the "city of" REFUGE which GOD has provided in HIS SON

And no one, apart from THE SON, no one without HIS COVERING can approach the altar of the holy presence of GOD...uncovered

 

[Grace777x70]

Except choose to believe in him

Arminians are so inconsistent.

I believe that He gives us the choice to believe in Him. He Himself is the Author of choice. I also believe that He is very persuasive when He reveals HIs love for us. I know - I melt when I see Him for who He truly is. I can't imagine people rejecting His love and yet it appears some do in scripture.

I believe in a God who loves the world and His Son died for the world and thus just like Paul said "God is the Savior of the world - especially of believers". Why? Because they believed.

Not sure what Arminians believe. I usually don't play that game as it is a useless one in my experience.

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel,

it was HIS BLOOD that stopped the avenging angel of death
the angel would see the blood marking their "houses" and would pass over

Are you worshiping the Blood or the God who have a means to be saved from the plague?

aka the POWER of the Blood is God's mercy and grace.

Some people shout out "in the name of Jesus" like it's a magic wand to grant all their prayers. Instead of praying "Thy will be done Lord."

they pray "My Will be done, by the BLOOD OF JESUS"

There is no power in selfish prayer and if you spread blood on your threshold now, there is no power in that blood.

The power is from God alone.

My point is: worship God alone, not the signs and outward means of His grace and love.

 

[lonestar26]

Age of accountability is definitely not a Reformed Theology belief.

God limitly atones to some people.

Lynn I have no beef with you, because you present things in a fair manner.

I will say though, if Calvin or other reformers theology says a baby would go to hell because they were not elect, then that makes God the devil.

How many times in the OT do we see God telling his own people not let their babies and children pass through the fire of Molech when they entered into the Promised Land.

Notice I said Calvin theology and not your own personal theology or beliefs

 

[lonestar26]

Ariel,

it was HIS BLOOD that stopped the avenging angel of death
the angel would see the blood marking their "houses" and would pass over

Are you saying that Jesus died in Egypt?

 

[ForthAngel]

Lynn I have no beef with you, because you present things in a fair manner.

I will say though, if Calvin or other reformers theology says a baby would go to hell because they were not elect, then that makes God the devil.

How many times in the OT do we see God telling his own people not let their babies and children pass through the fire of Molech when they entered into the Promised Land.

Notice I said Calvin theology and not your own personal theology or beliefs

Still with the whole God is the devil thing huh? Amazing how easy you let those words come out. Sad too.

Since the subject of babies going to hell has been brought up, let me correct something Ariel said about me that I never said and make my view clear since I never did.

Ariel, about babies going to hell if they aren't elect:

There are a few things I consider.

What does the bible say about those who are saved? You know I'm on the reformed side and believe only those who are among the elect will be saved. I can't deny the scripture in this regard.

I also realize Jesus' attitude toward children, which was a positive one. Isaiah also presents an idea:

The righteous man perishes, and no one lays it to heart; devout men are taken away, while no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from calamity.

Another translation says the righteous are taken early to spare them from the evil to come. So, maybe God takes some children who are elect early. I dunno. I think if God were to take an elect child early, they would have had to have heard the Gospel and been responsive to it. Scripture tells us that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Is this an absolute? Are babies subject to this before they have a capacity to reason and think? I dunno. I leave it up to God.

Also consider, the baby was not one of God's elect, therefore salvation was never forthcoming anyway. What if the child would be the next hitler and God takes them to prevent some greater evil or calamity?

A lot of things to consider. I'm not God though and if he decides to take babies early and judge them, so be it. If he decides to take an elect child early, so be it. He is God, not me.

 

[ForthAngel]

A good reminder of who Jesus is.


[video=youtube;hRLluVmkrJ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRLluVmkrJ8[/video]

 

[Ariel82]

Are you saying that Jesus died in Egypt?

The blood of Passover in Egypt foreshadows Jesus death on the cross.

 

[lonestar26]

Still with the whole God is the devil thing huh? Amazing how easy you let those words come out. Sad too.

Since the subject of babies going to hell has been brought up, let me correct something Ariel said about me that I never said and make my view clear since I never did.

Ariel, about babies going to hell if they aren't elect:

There are a few things I consider.

What does the bible say about those who are saved? You know I'm on the reformed side and believe only those who are among the elect will be saved. I can't deny the scripture in this regard.

I also realize Jesus' attitude toward children, which was a positive one. Isaiah also presents an idea:

The righteous man perishes, and no one lays it to heart; devout men are taken away, while no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from calamity.

Another translation says the righteous are taken early to spare them from the evil to come. So, maybe God takes some children who are elect early. I dunno. I think if God were to take an elect child early, they would have had to have heard the Gospel and been responsive to it. Scripture tells us that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Is this an absolute? Are babies subject to this before they have a capacity to reason and think? I dunno. I leave it up to God.

Also consider, the baby was not one of God's elect, therefore salvation was never forthcoming anyway. What if the child would be the next hitler and God takes them to prevent some greater evil or calamity?

A lot of things to consider. I'm not God though and if he decides to take babies early and judge them, so be it. If he decides to take an elect child early, so be it. He is God, not me.

I appreciate your attempt to answer this in sincerity I really do.

However, this is why you are living in contradiction all the time and therefore double minded as James warned us of. This is also why you get wore out from all the fights. You cannot go against your personal theology and doctrine, yet hope God would never send a Baby to hell, but you defer to him, because his sovereignty is his will.

So without saying it, you are saying that if it is God's will and sovereign action to send a baby to hell, thats on him and not you and that friend is attributing the works of the Devil to God.

All his warning in the OT to his people about not aborting their babies by passing them over into the fire is something you cannot even refute or begin to have discussion on, because hey If God wants to do that, its him not me. This is the typical reformed cop out on the rest of the Bible you do not read or study.

The greatest contradiction in your reply is about the next Hitler, if your example about the next Hitler is true, then the real Hitler would have never been, because God would have stopped him and sent him to hell as a baby to avoid a great evil and calamity. Of course you will dodge this and defend Hitler because it was God's will and sovereignty that allowed him to butcher millions anyway.

This kinda of glaring contradiction is why I stay away from reformed circles.

How convenient is it to have the crutch of "God's will and sovereignty" to lean on, when you get confronted with the contradiction your theology and does not have an answer for.

 

[lonestar26]

The blood of Passover in Egypt foreshadows Jesus death on the cross.

Yes I know that, but she said it was HIS blood. So if it was HIS blood and not a foreshadow of things to come, what is she saying?

 

[ForthAngel]

I appreciate your attempt to answer this in sincerity I really do.

However, this is why you are living in contradiction all the time and therefore double minded as James warned us of. This is also why you get wore out from all the fights. You cannot go against your personal theology and doctrine, yet hope God would never send a Baby to hell, but you defer to him, because his sovereignty is his will.

So without saying it, you are saying that if it is God's will and sovereign action to send a baby to hell, thats on him and not you and that friend is attributing the works of the Devil to God.

All his warning in the OT to his people about not aborting their babies by passing them over into the fire is something you cannot even refute or begin to have discussion on, because hey If God wants to do that, its him not me. This is the typical reformed cop out on the rest of the Bible you do not read or study.

The greatest contradiction in your reply is about the next Hitler, if your example about the next Hitler is true, then the real Hitler would have never been, because God would have stopped him and sent him to hell as a baby to avoid a great evil and calamity. Of course you will dodge this and defend Hitler because it was God's will and sovereignty that allowed him to butcher millions anyway.

This kinda of glaring contradiction is why I stay away from reformed circles.

How convenient is it to have the crutch of "God's will and sovereignty" to lean on, when you get confronted with the contradiction your theology and does not have an answer for.

There are no contradictions in what I've said. And your points are irrelevant. God allows some evil, other evil he restrains. Therefore your point about the original hitler is invalid. I am also unsure what I would be refuting in regards to those sacrificing their children. What does that have to do with anything?

You are the one standing up to God and making man sovereign, not me. Like I said, I leave it up to God.

 

[kaylagrl]

That would be a misnomer, as God does redirect, influence and change the plans hearts of men according to His will. Research this and you'll see it to be true.



This is popular but not biblical. There are many who have never heard, and that is a hard truth. The only answer an arminian and anti-cal would have is "then they are saved by the light God gives them and they'll be in heaven" but that is pure mysticism. Nothing in Scripture speaks to this. "The wind blows where it listeth..."



Irresistible grace doesn't teach grace or the Spirit are not able to be resisted, so these types of stories are presented on a faulty understanding of IG.

The man who got saved was elected from the foundation of the world. The other man may also be elect, but still in a state of lostness, Ephesians 2:3.

The Bible says we are without excuse.There is enough evidence in the world around us for people to seek Him,at least that is what the word says.I heard a story from a missionary who went to some deep,dark place overseas to share the Gospel.When he came into the village the chief warmly greeted him and said "we have been expecting you! We have had dreams about a man named Jesus and that He would send someone to tell us more about Him" Dont put God in a box,He can reach people in ways we can't even imagine.


Ok I understand where you're coming from. I disagree but Im asking what others believe. So I do understand what you are saying.So I also asked "can you know you are saved" what is your belief?




ps,thanks for the more level head,still would like to see apology to Lynn. But lets not derail the thread.

 

[kaylagrl]

Am I supposed to compare Wesley to Calvin?

Or Wesley to my belief?

Or you are believing as the guy says Wesley was?

You should probably try to simplify your question

I do not (mostly) agree with what is in the blue lettering, if this is the question.

Yes,your last line is the answer. So we do agree on something here.

 

[kaylagrl]

kg, the reformed believe the atonement actually accomplished something.

we believe it didn't just make salvation possible, but rather Christ truly atoned for the sins of His people.
He actually propitiated God's wrath in their behalf.

because if the Lord Jesus paid for everyone's sin, then everyone's sin has been atoned for, and everyone should be in the Kingdom.

does that make sense?

Yes,it makes sense. Now I would say that Christ did die for all sins but not all will accept the sacrifice made. But I do see what you are saying.