Calvinists,Im Asking...

[PeterJens]

I always say I was like Thomas. I needed to see the nails in his hands and his side. God knew this, and he showed me!

So, when this whole free will, saying a sinner's prayer, make a choice thing kept getting preached, I was always like "huh?" In my mind. Now, I know why. Because God does elect and call his own. Yes, we need to hear the gospel. That is the way God works! But, God calls us, and we don't have a choice to resist. I guess that would be irresistible grace?

And God kept me, even when I turned away from him, when I was at my worst, he not only didn't turn from me, he used it for my good. Everything, in fact, as Romans 8:28 says!

I am just trying to come at this from a different angle! Because some people are playing context games with the Bible, so maybe experience will mean more? Right, I doubt it too!

Maybe we all use language the wrong way. God is the creator. When He reveals himself
to us in the context of who He is in His heart He knows we will love Him because we are
His sheep. So there is no choice because there is no alternative. I used to hate this idea
no choice, but now I see it is just the reality of He is the source of love and all things.
I do not find it hard to accept I need to breath each day, I just do it.

I do feel I could have stayed in the darkness, but Jesus drew me deeper, because He
is the source of life, and life is what I want, and He just warms my heart each day, in
every way. I have actually lost a sense of objectivity, I just want to know more, because
there is nothing better. It is the being part of a body, of encouraging and ministering to
each other that I really need to grow in, because this is who we are, servants to one
another. Amen

 

[Muzungu256]

Before China became China, they had a word for God. Jao. It is the same word as Jehovah. Over the course of millennia, it was whittled down to Tao. Something of God, and yet no longer God.

Before there was a Roman empire, the people living in what became that city-state had a word for God. Jove. It was the same word as Jehovah.

hi Depleted this is extremely interesting where can i find out more. was it like this in all countries in the past you think?

 

[Rockrz]

Before China became China, they had a word for God. Jao. It is the same word as Jehovah. Over the course of millennia, it was whittled down to Tao. Something of God, and yet no longer God.

Before there was a Roman empire, the people living in what became that city-state had a word for God. Jove. It was the same word as Jehovah.

That's all lovely and all... but, what did they do with Jesus???

People can claim to love God all they want, but the only way to God is thru Jesus Christ.

If they do not embrace Jesus, they are lost in their sin.

 

[Ariel82]

Well Lynn, notmyown, Angela, Trifomus and Marcano are Calvinist and still here.

Probably others but those I am pretty sure hold all 5 petals.

Okay we can add Sparkman, (grandpa hiding in then shadows), Angela....maybe Johnny_B?

P4T and ForthAngel made a reappearance.

Everyone else, I am not sure if they hold to any of the TULIP petals.

 

[Angela53510]

I would say from what I know so far, 5 petals for me! I also like the eschatology, too!

 

[Laish]

Okay we can add Sparkman, (grandpa hiding in then shadows), Angela....maybe Johnny_B?

P4T and ForthAngel made a reappearance.

Everyone else, I am not sure if they hold to any of the TULIP petals.

Five pointer Reformed guy her
I been reading not posted yet sense most of what I would say has been expressed.
Its been interesting reading everything on the most part .
Blessings
Bill

 

[Depleted]

I believe God knows the beginning to the end.But knowing what will happen doesn't mean He has to influence what will happen. I believe the Holy Spirit convicts and draws everyone,some listen and some do not. An older saint from where Im from was a horrible alcoholic. He and a friend were drunk one night drowning their sorrows. His friend said "you know what you need to do? You need to get saved,thats what my mother told me." That older saint was convicted and he went to church and became saved.He went back and told his friend the good news and witnesses to him.But his friend would not give in to the Holy Spirits convicting. So thats from my perspective,thats how I believe.

If God doesn't influence things, what is your concept of sovereignty?

And those two drunks had the same experience Jesus did on the cross with the thieves on the cross. One he saved and one he didn't.

 

[Depleted]

Lynn asked a question a while back,she is Reformed. And I agreed and saw no answer to what she said.How can electing one person not mean another is elected for destruction? And can a Calvinist know,for certain,without doubt that they are going to heaven? Do Calvinists sing "Blessed Assurance"?

Yes and no on your last question. I go along with others when that song is sung. I just can't sing. lol

 

[ForthAngel]

I believe God knows the beginning to the end.But knowing what will happen doesn't mean He has to influence what will happen. I believe the Holy Spirit convicts and draws everyone,some listen and some do not. An older saint from where Im from was a horrible alcoholic. He and a friend were drunk one night drowning their sorrows. His friend said "you know what you need to do? You need to get saved,thats what my mother told me." That older saint was convicted and he went to church and became saved.He went back and told his friend the good news and witnesses to him.But his friend would not give in to the Holy Spirits convicting. So thats from my perspective,thats how I believe.

Hey Kayla, hopefully you don't mind if I make some statements about this post as well.

Not all of us believe that God influences everything directly. I know some here do. I don't believe God influences everything directly, especially when it comes to man and their sin except in regards to restraining it. Again, this leads to equal ultimacy which I, and most other reformed believers reject. There seems to be some that do believe in equal ultimacy however.

You believe the Holy Spirit convicts and draws everyone, but if this was the case, then Jesus is obligated to save everyone on the planet. The word used for draw in the Greek also means to drag. It's a positive force and action on God's part and man has no choice in the matter. I always go back to John 6 on this because there is no way around Jesus' words here:

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Notice in verse 36 that Jesus tells those around him that they have seen him and have not believed and immediately goes on to say that all that the Father gives him will come to him. He is basically telling them that the Father has not given them to him. Notice verse 40. Everyone that believes will have eternal life and will be raised on the last day. Now, about being drawn:

43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life.

This is without a doubt a soteriological passage and Jesus himself says that all that the Father draws (drags) to him, he will save. If the Father draws all men, Jesus is bound to save all men. The only conclusion can be universalism, but we see in verse 36 that some don't believe, so that rules this out.

 

[Depleted]

I will correct you on one point, as it seems to suggest you think that Calvinists don't believe in predestination based on foreknowledge. This is incorrect. I won't address the rest of the points as I'll leave the fun to someone else.

Reformed people do believe that God foreknows those He predestines to salvation. However, you are applying the non-Reformed understanding of foreknowledge in your suggestion concerning the other POV.

Read my thread here in this regard:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...le-events-both-does-romans-8-28-30-refer.html


God foreknows PEOPLE in this context. He fore-loves them in a distinguishing manner that he does not love the non-elect, much like a man loves his wife in a distinguishing manner that he does not love other women. Of course, he foreknows events of all types too, but He decrees them, whether actively or passively. If he doesn't cause them directly, he allows them to occur which is basically passively decreeing them. With regards to salvation, he actively decrees the salvation of an individual because He himself regenerates them and causes them to respond in faith and repentance.

I only worship an omniscient, omnipotent God who brings to pass his decrees without fail and perfectly. His name is YHVH. I commend Him to you.

Kind of hoped others would go here, because I was in the middle of doing stuff, so can't focus well.

But, as far as I can see, Wesley is a 1-point Calvinist, (which is weird, because he has six points and only two are something related to the Calvinist's 5-Points), which is about as much a Calvinist as you -- Not.

TULIP is
Total Depravity,
Unconditional election
Limited Atonement, (not universal)
Irresistible Grace,
Reverence of the saints.

We're against 2-5 outright, and 6 sounds like a politician's speech. A lot of words to look good and say nothing in particular.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I also prefer reformed or Augustinian.
It's not so simple as calvinists are pretty seriously caricatured (yes I am one) that some might be attacking a straw man
The Bible does use terms like predestination and election so it isn't a question of whether they are true but how are we to understand those.

It's good to be charitable about opposing views.

 

[preacher4truth]

Our Wesleyan Heritage - The United Methodist Church

Prevenient grace allows us to do good according to the Law (giving mankind a relationship like God had with Israel in the Old Covenant), but does not mention Jesus and what He did on the cross.

That's funny isn't it? Scripture says there are none who do good. I think I'll keep sticking to the Word, not man made errors that contradict truth.

 

[TMS]

For each verse given there is an Arminian interpretation, and i have a choice the liberty to choose which explanation i beleieve is correct. If Calvanism is correct, than God would have caused me to chose that interpretation or left me to chose what i like but to no profit because i'm not chosen by Him to be saved. With Arminian views i can choose what i like because God does not force me. I must be Lost. should i give up hope, or will God force me to change my mind.

Were Adam and Eve able to do Good and be loving before the fall? did they have a choice before the fall?

Why did Satan chose to rebel? And why did 1/3rd of the Angels follow him? Did they have a choice?

 

[trofimus]

For each verse given there is an Arminian interpretation, and i have a choice the liberty to choose which explanation i beleieve is correct. If Calvanism is correct, than God would have caused me to chose that interpretation or left me to chose what i like but to no profit because i'm not chosen by Him to be saved. With Arminian views i can choose what i like because God does not force me. I must be Lost. should i give up hope, or will God force me to change my mind.

Were Adam and Eve able to do Good and be loving before the fall? did they have a choice before the fall?

Why did Satan chose to rebel? And why did 1/3rd of the Angels follow him? Did they have a choice?

I think you do not understand what we are saying.

We do have a choice. Thats why we are guilty.

But we do not have a freedom to chose good and evil equally. We incline to the evil.

That we will choose this or that is certain (for anyone who knows the whole chain of reactions inside of us) but it is not necessary (nobody forces us to make the wrong or right choice).

 

[TMS]

That's funny isn't it? Scripture says there are none who do good. I think I'll keep sticking to the Word, not man made errors that contradict truth.

True we can't do Good. So How do i see good deeds being done by people around me? Look at the people in the Bible that done Good, Moses, Joseph, David, Daniel, etc.
Some people did good but ended up lost. Some people do good today but don't accept Jesus.
On our own we can't do good, but by the Spirit of God, (with God) we are enabled to do good.
God give His Spirit to who ever He chooses and they can do Good. Because of Jesus we are once again able to be connected to the source of all LOVE and Goodness.

God stands at the door and knocks and if we were left in the state of death, slaves to sin, or in the flesh, like Paul states we would constantly follow the flesh.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
God calls all to do good and we choose each day hundreds of times to obey or reject God (crucify the flesh or serve the flesh). thanks to the Grace of Jesus we can choose to soften our heart and let God in but we can also choose to harden our hearts and lock God out.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[TMS]

I think you do not understand what we are saying.

We do have a choice. Thats why we are guilty.

But we do not have a freedom to chose good and evil equally. We incline to the evil.

That we will choose this or that is certain (for anyone who knows the whole chain of reactions inside of us) but it is not necessary (nobody forces us to make the wrong or right choice).

If i am not one of the elected than do i have the choice to be saved?

 

[trofimus]

If i am not one of the elected than do i have the choice to be saved?

If you are not one of the elected, you will not persevere with the faith to the end, you will lose it somewhere on the way. Because only with the providence of God for His elect your faith will be rooted.

 

[preacher4truth]

True we can't do Good. So How do i see good deeds being done by people around me?

You're making a couple of category errors. Just because a person does a good deed, it doesn't necessitate that they are "good."

If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! Matthew 7:11

And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. Mark 10:18

 

[preacher4truth]

If i am not one of the elected than do i have the choice to be saved?

The command is repent and believe the Gospel. Two things you cannot do without divine assistance.

 

[MattforJesus]

There is none that does good,no,not one,and that is the Old Testament for they could not have the Spirit.

But in the New Testament we can do good,for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,and has crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts,so if they do not want sin they can abstain from sin.

But they can only be good by the Spirit,because there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh,so our efforts will fall short,but if we want to represent good,and not sin,and hate sin,by the Spirit it is possible.

A man called Jesus good,and He said why do you call Me good,there is only one good and that is God,which the man Christ Jesus said,I am doing good for God causes Me to do good,giving glory to God for Him being perfect in goodness.

We should have that same attitude and not give glory to our self,and say,I am good as if by our own efforts,but give glory to God why we can have the power by the Spirit to do good,and abstain from sin,but it is because we make the choice to want to represent goodness,and hate sin,so as long as we make the choice not to sin,and have a desire not to sin,by the power of the Spirit it can be done,for the Spirit does not fail.