Calvinists,Im Asking...

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Dec 28, 2016
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When a person "chooses" Christ, it is because they are already converted. Salvation is not clinched by a human decision, and salvation is not via this avenue in the first place: John 1:13; Romans 9:11ff; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:3ff &c. Faith is a gift granted by God, and is not innate within man, Ephesians 1:19.

Question: "What is decisional regeneration / decision theology?"

Answer:
Decisional regeneration, sometimes referred to as decision theology, is the belief that a person must make a decision for Christ, consciously accepting Him as Savior, in order to be saved. According to decision theology, the new birth occurs when someone 1) hears the gospel, 2) is convicted of the truth of the gospel, 3) understands the need for salvation, and 4) chooses to accept Christ rather than reject Him. Often, the decision to accept Christ is marked by an action such as walking an aisle, praying a "sinner’s prayer," signing a decision card, or similar activity.

Detractors of decision theology consider it a misleading and dangerous teaching because it gives man too much control over his salvation. Some see decisional regeneration (salvation depends on making a decision) akin to baptismal regeneration (salvation depends on being baptized) and other works-based systems. If salvation is by grace, then it is an internal work of the Holy Spirit, occurring at the time of His choosing. Decisional regeneration, on the other hand, posits that the moment of salvation occurs when someone makes a choice to “accept Christ.” This, say opponents, is tantamount to salvation by works, because exercising the will is a human work and therefore cannot be part of salvation.

Some are opposed to decision theology because it risks associating a spiritual event with a physical action. Telling someone to "make a decision for Christ" and to "express" that decision outwardly fosters the notion that salvation is synonymous with walking an aisle or reciting a prayer instead of being the work of the Holy Spirit (John 3:8). This false association, in turn, can lead to false conversions, because someone who walks an aisle after a sermon may think he is saved (on the basis of an emotional experience), when there has been no work of God in his heart. Also, the detractors of decision theology are quick to point out that nowhere in the Bible are "decisions for Christ" mentioned, nor is anyone commanded to "accept Christ" or to "ask Him into your heart."

Further, Scripture says that man in his natural state is incapable of choosing Christ. He is "dead" in sin (Ephesians 2:1), he cannot please God (Romans 8:8), and he is utterly helpless to come to God on his own (John 6:44-45). There is "no one who seeks God" (Romans 3:11); an unsaved person is unable to "accept the things that come from the Spirit of God" (1 Corinthians 2:14). This being the case, asking a non-Christian to make a decision for Christ is like asking a corpse to dance. Divine intervention is necessary.

Central to the debate over decision theology is the debate over monergism vs. synergism. Is salvation God’s work or man’s—or both? Monergism, closely allied with Calvinism and its tenet of irresistible grace, teaches that God is solely responsible for all aspects of our salvation. God sovereignly saves without any cooperation from us whatsoever, even giving us the faith to believe (Ephesians 2:8-9). Synergism teaches that we cooperate in our salvation to some degree. Decisional regeneration can be seen as synergistic in that we must decide to accept Christ—a very limited cooperation, but cooperation nonetheless.

The Bible is clear that salvation is totally the work of God. We can do nothing to secure salvation for ourselves (Romans 3:20). The Lord chooses us (John 15:16), draws us to Himself (John 6:44), gives us life (John 14:6), and preserves us (John 10:28). The new birth is not the result "of human decision" (John 1:13). Just as the Lord brought life to the valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 37), Jesus "gives life to whom he is pleased to give it" (John 5:21). At the same time, the Bible commands everyone to repent (Acts 3:19, 17:30) and to believe in Christ (Acts 16:31). While the words "make a decision for Christ" are not used in Scripture, the fact that we are commanded to repent seems to imply an exercise of the will.

How is one saved? By grace through faith—and even faith is a gift created through the hearing of God’s Word (Romans 10:17). Salvation does not come by walking an aisle or raising a hand. Saying a prayer does not save anyone. Reading and agreeing with the salvation pages on GotQuestions.org cannot save. Salvation is making a new spiritual creation, something only the Holy Spirit can accomplish.

Does this mean that it is wrong for an evangelist to hold an ”altar call” after his message? Not at all. However, we must be careful never to attribute our spiritual peace with God to a physical act of our own. Coming to the front of a church is not the same thing as coming to Christ. Also, we should remember that simply "making a decision" of some kind is not what saves us; it is the all-powerful, sovereign work of God in Christ that saves. Rather than calling on people to "invite Jesus to come in," it would perhaps be better to urge them to repent of their sin and cast themselves on the mercy of God in Christ.

https://www.gotquestions.org/decisional-regeneration.html

Decisional regeneration was invented by Charles G. Finney and was countered by those who knew it to be a deceptive false gospel. Part of Finney's ideology was expressed when he stated that being saved is just like making a career choice to be an attorney or something else. Now we have many many people who believe they are going to heaven when they die because they "made a decision." Personally I know of many who do not serve God, live in sin, use His name in vain, drunkards, drug addicts who proclaim themselves on their way to heaven when they die. One other disturbingly sad factor is they say "God knows what's in my heart." :(
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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1. According to God's choice we are saved or not (lost).
2. According to our choice we are saved or not.

????Which one.

Our flesh (sinful state) can't choose anything good, can't repent, can't surrender to Jesus, but with the gift of Jesus Christ we are connected to the Spirit that can Choose to surrender and repent. In Jesus we are given the gift (salvation) but we are not forced to believe or have faith in the gift or accept that gift of life.
Both... God chose to save us by giving us Jesus, we choose to be saved by accepting the gift.
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Oh you are right, you are consistent in eisegesis...
More snarky disdain and false accusations, right? Corroborate your accusation with proof of eisegesis on my part. Can you do that? I mean anyone can just make accusations, can you prove yours, or are you only going to resort to the above attitude?

What is happening here really is that you cannot exegete the Scripture, nor will you allow it to give you the truth of who the context refers and instead stick to errant tradition. "Us-ward" is plain, and the context is of the elect to whom he is writing. That's the consistent interpretation: allowing context to dictate the truth to me, not someones errant theology.

Oh, and yes, there are several on here who interpret Scripture in a Universalist fashion and it is done in nescience and unawares. I've done so way in the past myself until God opened the eyes of my heart to the true Gospel; Ephesians 1:18. :)
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Only those who have the Holy Spirit testifying in their hearts that they are Children of God and cleansed of their sins by the Blood of Jesus and will be raised again with Him are truly saved.

Everyone else has a false assurance of salvation.

They will be led by the Holy Spirit and display the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, kindness and self control.

They will do good works and shine a light for God's glory.
They will learn to tame their tongues and speak life giving water to a thirsty world.

They will be chastened when they sin and be brought to repentance. If someone is never chastened by the Holy Spirit for their transgressions, then they are not God's child.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Its pointless to talk to some folks.

Yeah the mirror technique didn't work...wonder if he even realizes half my post were HIS words?
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
When a person "chooses" Christ, it is because they are already converted. Salvation is not clinched by a human decision, and salvation is not via this avenue in the first place: John 1:13; Romans 9:11ff; James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:3ff &c. Faith is a gift granted by God, and is not innate within man, Ephesians 1:19.

Question: "What is decisional regeneration / decision theology?"

Answer:
Decisional regeneration, sometimes referred to as decision theology, is the belief that a person must make a decision for Christ, consciously accepting Him as Savior, in order to be saved. According to decision theology, the new birth occurs when someone 1) hears the gospel, 2) is convicted of the truth of the gospel, 3) understands the need for salvation, and 4) chooses to accept Christ rather than reject Him. Often, the decision to accept Christ is marked by an action such as walking an aisle, praying a "sinner’s prayer," signing a decision card, or similar activity.

Detractors of decision theology consider it a misleading and dangerous teaching because it gives man too much control over his salvation. Some see decisional regeneration (salvation depends on making a decision) akin to baptismal regeneration (salvation depends on being baptized) and other works-based systems. If salvation is by grace, then it is an internal work of the Holy Spirit, occurring at the time of His choosing. Decisional regeneration, on the other hand, posits that the moment of salvation occurs when someone makes a choice to “accept Christ.” This, say opponents, is tantamount to salvation by works, because exercising the will is a human work and therefore cannot be part of salvation.

Some are opposed to decision theology because it risks associating a spiritual event with a physical action. Telling someone to "make a decision for Christ" and to "express" that decision outwardly fosters the notion that salvation is synonymous with walking an aisle or reciting a prayer instead of being the work of the Holy Spirit (John 3:8). This false association, in turn, can lead to false conversions, because someone who walks an aisle after a sermon may think he is saved (on the basis of an emotional experience), when there has been no work of God in his heart. Also, the detractors of decision theology are quick to point out that nowhere in the Bible are "decisions for Christ" mentioned, nor is anyone commanded to "accept Christ" or to "ask Him into your heart."

Further, Scripture says that man in his natural state is incapable of choosing Christ. He is "dead" in sin (Ephesians 2:1), he cannot please God (Romans 8:8), and he is utterly helpless to come to God on his own (John 6:44-45). There is "no one who seeks God" (Romans 3:11); an unsaved person is unable to "accept the things that come from the Spirit of God" (1 Corinthians 2:14). This being the case, asking a non-Christian to make a decision for Christ is like asking a corpse to dance. Divine intervention is necessary.

Central to the debate over decision theology is the debate over monergism vs. synergism. Is salvation God’s work or man’s—or both? Monergism, closely allied with Calvinism and its tenet of irresistible grace, teaches that God is solely responsible for all aspects of our salvation. God sovereignly saves without any cooperation from us whatsoever, even giving us the faith to believe (Ephesians 2:8-9). Synergism teaches that we cooperate in our salvation to some degree. Decisional regeneration can be seen as synergistic in that we must decide to accept Christ—a very limited cooperation, but cooperation nonetheless.

The Bible is clear that salvation is totally the work of God. We can do nothing to secure salvation for ourselves (Romans 3:20). The Lord chooses us (John 15:16), draws us to Himself (John 6:44), gives us life (John 14:6), and preserves us (John 10:28). The new birth is not the result "of human decision" (John 1:13). Just as the Lord brought life to the valley of dry bones (Ezekiel 37), Jesus "gives life to whom he is pleased to give it" (John 5:21). At the same time, the Bible commands everyone to repent (Acts 3:19, 17:30) and to believe in Christ (Acts 16:31). While the words "make a decision for Christ" are not used in Scripture, the fact that we are commanded to repent seems to imply an exercise of the will.

How is one saved? By grace through faith—and even faith is a gift created through the hearing of God’s Word (Romans 10:17). Salvation does not come by walking an aisle or raising a hand. Saying a prayer does not save anyone. Reading and agreeing with the salvation pages on GotQuestions.org cannot save. Salvation is making a new spiritual creation, something only the Holy Spirit can accomplish.

Does this mean that it is wrong for an evangelist to hold an ”altar call” after his message? Not at all. However, we must be careful never to attribute our spiritual peace with God to a physical act of our own. Coming to the front of a church is not the same thing as coming to Christ. Also, we should remember that simply "making a decision" of some kind is not what saves us; it is the all-powerful, sovereign work of God in Christ that saves. Rather than calling on people to "invite Jesus to come in," it would perhaps be better to urge them to repent of their sin and cast themselves on the mercy of God in Christ.

https://www.gotquestions.org/decisional-regeneration.html

Decisional regeneration was invented by Charles G. Finney and was countered by those who knew it to be a deceptive false gospel. Part of Finney's ideology was expressed when he stated that being saved is just like making a career choice to be an attorney or something else. Now we have many many people who believe they are going to heaven when they die because they "made a decision." Personally I know of many who do not serve God, live in sin, use His name in vain, drunkards, drug addicts who proclaim themselves on their way to heaven when they die. One other disturbingly sad factor is they say "God knows what's in my heart." :(



Quote "Telling someone to "make a decision for Christ" and to "express" that decision outwardly fosters the notion that salvation is synonymous with walking an aisle or reciting a prayer instead of being the work of the Holy Spirit


No,I dont believe walking the aisle saves you.Trust me,being a traveling evangelist Ive seen plenty of that.I do believe the Holy Spirit convicts people and they may feel compelled to come to an altar. But coming to an altar does not save you,having your name on the roll,decision card whatever. I feel it is the Holy Spirit drawing. Now some may feel that conviction and walk out the door and never come back. Some,like my aunt, mature over time and are serious about their commitment.


[FONT=&quot]18 “Listen, then, and learn what the parable of the sower means. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]19 Those who hear the message about the Kingdom but do not understand it are like the seeds that fell along the path. The Evil One comes and snatches away what was sown in them. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]20 The seeds that fell on rocky ground stand for those who receive the message gladly as soon as they hear it. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]21 But it does not sink deep into them, and they don't last long. So when trouble or persecution comes because of the message, they give up at once. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]22 The seeds that fell among thorn bushes stand for those who hear the message; but the worries about this life and the love for riches choke the message, and they don't bear fruit. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]23 And the seeds sown in the good soil stand for those who hear the message and understand it: they bear fruit, some as much as one hundred, others sixty, and others thirty.”[/FONT]
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Ariel,

There have been several occasions where you've barraged me and have made false accusations of which I've attempted to make amends but you will not relent the behavior. The most notable was to imply I do not preach the Gospel and the attack for exposing false gospels and how wrong it was to do so. Then you went around doing the same thing later on yourself and somehow if you do it it's all good. That's a really sad double-standard but I must accept that is who you are, how you behave and what you've done.

I am sorry that you've initiated a belligerency upon my Gospel, person, interpretation of Scripture &c.

Hopefully we can make amends, and if not, feel free to put me on ignore because the way you address me in your objective to barrage me from thread to thread isn't necessary. I won't respond to you any longer if you continue said behavior. I get it, you hold disdain for me and disdain for my stance. I'm offering a chance to make amends. You can have the last word if you so desire.

Thanks.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Why do you always have to lie?

Or do you truly not understand my objection was not to you defending your position.

My objection was not even that you called out false teachers.

The objection was the manner in which you address those you disagree with.

It reflected clearly when I almost word for word repeat what you say.

My objection is that you do not practice what you preach.

So I again I repeat your words back to you:

"
Watch the way you address me, no need for
the snarky false accusation and attitude, it's not becoming of you. Thanks"

God says tame the tongue for a reason. Perhaps you need to pray and ask Him for help.

When will you admit to falsely accusing me and calling me names? When will you apologize? When will you practice what you claim you believe?

" the way you address me in your objective to barrage me from thread to thread isn't necessary. "

This by the way is a lie.

My objective is to talk to my brothers and sisters in Christ

I don't follow you from thread to thread, nor do I barrage you in ever post i have address to,you.

In fact my first post on one thread was to agree that you didn't teach works salvation. Another to say I liked the video you posted.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Sorry kayla, had to try and make the effort.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
What I have been taught is that what Jesus did on the cross was powerful enough to pay for everyone's sins,but only those who have a saving faith are actually washed clean by the Blood of Christ.

So even though the act of atonement was for all of humanity, it is only effective in those who have saving faith (which is a gift from God, which is different from a heathens faith or a devils faith in God),

The way I understand it is by looking at the Passover in Egypt.

Only those who had blood on the mantle of the door AND STAYED INSIDE were saved from the plague,but people could still not place the Blood on the threshhold or chose to walk outside.

People can still chose not to accept Jesus or walk away from Him.

However there is something special happening in the hearts and minds of those who chose to stay and follow God. What may begin as fear of God because of true understanding of the Law and how we are rightly condemned; may be transformed into love by the grace shown through the gospel message; and faith in Christ alone for our salvation.

Some people say it was their spreading of the Blood that saved the Israelites in Eygpt, but it was God's mercy and grace that saved them. The blood was a message to God's avenging angels, but it was God's power that stopped and moved them..not the blood itself,

The difference between a magic charm or idol and a saving faith in the Living God.
Then let me put it from words you understand to words of how we understand it.

That lamb's blood on the mantles? What will represent that in the future? That's Jesus' blood, right? Was his blood a mere charm or an idol? He worked for that. He literally sweated that! He did something he never had to do -- save people. And it's not any ole blood. It's the blood of God himself!

That's the difference -- innocent Man. Perfect God. Baby sheep don't have that. We don't have that. And we don't put it on our doorways. He puts it over us, so the Father sees him, instead of seeing what we are apart from Jesus.

BUT that blood was only put on some doors. "Limited Atonement." Could the Egyptians have done the same thing? They sure could have, and it would have worked. Why didn't they? Either because it never occurred to them, or because they thought it was some stupid charm by superstitious people following the wrong gods. Just like we had 20,000 reasons for not claiming Christ's blood our whole lives, until something happened. (God.)

And what stopped those Israelites from walking out their doors even after putting up the blood? Obedience? Fear? You could go with that, and it would be true, however it was also "Irresistible Grace." Somewhere between a bunch of guys picking up Jonah to dump him off the boat during a storm, and a fish upchucking him onto the shore right outside Nineveh, Jonah went from "Never going to happen. I don't care how much you want me to do this, Jehovah, I am just never ever going to preach your saving message to my most horrible enemies" to being the guy with the right words that made a nation of his enemies repent. Obedience? Fear? Maybe, that too, but Irresistible Grace also.

That's not so much a choice not to walk out of their homes. That is God's sovereignty. Even with 2.2 billion (The approximate number of Israelites including women and children) excuses given for why they really thought this whole lamb's blood on doorways thingy was probably just a silly idea, God still got himself a nation -- a thick-necked people -- who did what he demanded they do. Just them. Not the Egyptians. So limited ticket item given to exactly the people God chose to save, and enforced by God's loving unmerited favor.

Two letters from TULIP covered better for you?

Because, geesh Louise! Growing up, I was taught how to be a good Catholic, but that had so very little to do with God. That had everything to do with avoiding H - E - double hockey sticks. God just happened to be the owner of the really big place I planned to spend eternity in. I might never even run into the guy. It was all about the eternal-vacation-package for me until one night on the side of a stage I was picked out from a crowd.

And, after four tries to escape that doorway to do my own thing, God has always slathered enough grace to pull me back for my own good. Something like that Cup of Humankindness the Ghost of Christmas Present kept reminding Scrooge to drink from. God overflows in us. That's on him, because we'd rather die of dehydration in ourselves. Scrooge didn't drink to make him be better. He drank because it tasted so good and felt so good. It was irresistible to him.

That is "saving faith." It is God's gift, not our inherent goodness. Inherited goodness, yes. Inherent? No way!
 
D

Depleted

Guest
Do you believe one of the stages is realising that the faith we have was a gift from God?

I agree we are still learning the many blessing God has already bestowed upon us. All praise and glory be to God.
Aha! So you do see saving faith is on God, not us! :)

Are we just differing on the when?
 
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Ariel82

Guest
I totally sure with this statement Lynn:

"
That is "saving faith." It is God's gift, not our inherent goodness. Inherited goodness, yes. Inherent? No way!"

However the rest of your analogy falls short because those same men and women rebelled and rejected God in the wilderness and died there. No one who was born in Egypt was allowed to cross the Jordan except Joshua and the other guy whose name I have forgotten.
 
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Depleted

Guest
Ariel,

it was HIS BLOOD that stopped the avenging angel of death
the angel would see the blood marking their "houses" and would pass over
Yup! Agreed. (Oh, no! Am I even allowed to agree with a non-Calvinist? :eek: lol)

I sometimes wonder what that looked like to angels. Their whole purpose is to love and serve God. Was that blood like a "Do Not Enter" sign, or was it a big neon blinking incredibly-bright sign that made them back up in sheer adoration.

When we get to heaven, we usually plan on asking God a billion questions. But, if you ever check out what happens in scripture to the men who did see God there was only one position they ended up in -- face down on the ground. The magnitude of God being God always left them with merely a glimpse of what was below God's feet. Not even God's feet. That tells me they were so awed they could do nothing more than backup and flop.

So would angels back up just at the sign of God? They've had a lot longer to deal with the awe of God, and yet I suspect they are still floored to some degree.

(Nothing to do with Reformed Theology. Just get into stuff like this.)
 
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Depleted

Guest
Personally I believe that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega of all things that come from God in relation to us humans that He loves dearly.

He is the Aleph and Tav. The author and finisher of faith. He is the source of all things that are good and pure and lovely.

Without Him - we can do nothing.
Then what is your disagreement with Reformed Theology? That is exactly what we believe, including the who chooses whom part.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,826
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I totally sure with this statement Lynn:

"
That is "saving faith." It is God's gift, not our inherent goodness. Inherited goodness, yes. Inherent? No way!"

However the rest of your analogy falls short because those same men and women rebelled and rejected God in the wilderness and died there. No one who was born in Egypt was allowed to cross the Jordan except Joshua and the other guy whose name I have forgotten.
:) Caleb

and this is an interesting point.
 
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Ariel82

Guest
Just put each other on ignore,I dont see minds changing. You might as well tune each other out.
I don't do good tuning folks out. Sides Jesus said love your enemies, which is hard to do if you tune them out.

I mistakenly thought when he called me "sister" weeks ago, he meant it. Guess I was wrong.