Calvinists,Im Asking...

[trofimus]

Does it matter if the elect are mature in Christ or strive for holiness?

What difference does it make if they are non-elect and sin, since they are going to hell anyway?

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
2 Cor 5:10

So yes, our deeds matter.

 

[Depleted]

A good reminder of who Jesus is.


[video=youtube;hRLluVmkrJ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRLluVmkrJ8[/video]

Quiet, demure, petite kind of preacher, huh? lol

Head up, if anyone didn't see that video, please do. It's only 5 1/2 minutes but unfettered Reformed Theology woven well.

THAT's the God we serve!

 

[Ariel82]

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
2 Cor 5:10

So yes, our deeds matter.

What reason would the non elect strive to do God's will?

 

[notmyown]

Does it matter if the elect are mature in Christ or strive for holiness?

What difference does it make if they are non-elect and sin, since they are going to hell anyway?

ah, man, really?? lol

of course it matters, and since God has given us a new nature, we have the desire to obey Him.
the lost sin because they can't help but to. you're talking like being 'good' saves anyone in that second question.

would you be interested in what the Bible says about election?

 

[Marano]

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
2 Cor 5:10

So yes, our deeds matter.

Of course they matter, but the difference is, what makes our righteous deeds presentable before the God, is Jesus Christ.
Without Him, our best deeds are but as filthy rags, and alone without Jesus, righteous deeds won't save anyone.

 

[Marano]

What reason would the non elect strive to do God's will?

For one no ones who the elect are, supposedly the non elect won't have a heart towards God, and will never even begin to think about doing God's will.
.
The elect of course, it will be on their minds as they strive to do it with all they are.

 

[notmyown]

Can you elaborate what you believe this verse means?

i kinda thought it was self-explanatory.

God has chosen (look at the passage, btw, to see how many times that's said) the proclamation of the Gospel by which to save those who believe it.

 

[PrynceNY]

For one no ones who the elect are, supposedly the non elect won't have a heart towards God, and will never even begin to think about doing God's will. . The elect of course, it will be on their minds as they strive to do it with all they are.

i assume if you did know who the "elect" were you would completely ignore the "non-elect" and not bother preaching the gospel to them.

 

[trofimus]

What reason would the non elect strive to do God's will?

Thats not the calvinist issue. The question "why should unbeliever try to be a good person" applies to every view.

Well, some says that the hell will be differentiated according to the deeds of the person. Some places in the gospel seem to support this.

But it is very unrealistic to think that some unbeliever will be motivated to be "better" because he wants to have a lighter hell

They are rather motivated to be good just by the common grace, they (like us) want to live a peaceful life with a good conscience.

 

[Depleted]

The Bible says we are without excuse.There is enough evidence in the world around us for people to seek Him,at least that is what the word says.I heard a story from a missionary who went to some deep,dark place overseas to share the Gospel.When he came into the village the chief warmly greeted him and said "we have been expecting you! We have had dreams about a man named Jesus and that He would send someone to tell us more about Him" Dont put God in a box,He can reach people in ways we can't even imagine.


Ok I understand where you're coming from. I disagree but Im asking what others believe. So I do understand what you are saying.So I also asked "can you know you are saved" what is your belief?




ps,thanks for the more level head,still would like to see apology to Lynn. But lets not derail the thread.

I think you're getting caught up in the timeline with your understanding of irresistible grace. You're thinking God's grace has always been, and yet, until we are saved, we resisted.

Right! Agreed.

BUT that's not the time of irresistible grace. The time for irresistible is after regeneration. After we are born as new creatures in the Lord. After he redeemed us. After all that, the light goes on. Actually, the light floods our darkness.

Old us would just squirm into a darker hole. Irresistible grace makes new us come running out into the light with full wonderment, enjoyment, enthusiasm, desire all for that Light! That is the irresistible moment, not before that.

 

[trofimus]

Of course they matter, but the difference is, what makes our righteous deeds presentable before the God, is Jesus Christ.
Without Him, our best deeds are but as filthy rags, and alone without Jesus, righteous deeds won't save anyone.

Depends. Regarding salvation, we cannot satisfy God without Christ.

But regarding being "good or bad servant", we are really the ones making the game (but of course, being influenced by so many things...)

 

[Depleted]

Then with that question brings us back full circle. lol I think we are all able but not all will because we have the choice to accept. If you can't choose love,how can it be love? But I think I'll start another thread on that instead of derailing this one.

And all lions can eat wheat. So we are all able.

As for choosing love?

I met this super cute guy in church before Christmas. Super! Cute!

We became friends. I wanted to date him, but friends was good. Super. Cute. And now with a personality that equaled his looks. (Super cute too. lol)

Finally, we went on a date on February 28th. At the end of the date, he told me his purpose for dating. He was the kind of guy who needed to be married. And then he spent two hours telling me his life story. (Divorce and two kids was in there too.)

We kissed at my door. (I felt that kiss right down to my tootsies.)

1 AM and when I went inside I called Dad to let him know I just found the guy I would marry.

Where was that choice?

Where was your choice for your husband? Did you ever logic out if you would or wouldn't love him? Did you ever have that choice? Love isn't a choice at the beginning. It happens. We really can will ourselves to go back to love, but that first moment of love? No choice! No logicing stuff out. It just dinks, like turning on a light switch.

We love God because he first loved us! No choice. (Super cute too. lol)

 

[Depleted]

Ha! Not reading well today.We have severe storms coming through today.Really my mind is on that right now.

Ah, so I thought you were going with you and Trof had at least one point in common. Just many more not in common. lol

 

[Depleted]

Fair enough. While I don't think I was wrong in principle, I was wrong in how I handled it. My patience runs out sometimes.

That's what I was trying to say all along.

 

[Depleted]

Sit and wait for Lynn to finish reading the thread and commenting.....

Is your butt sore from waiting for me?

Truthfully, you and I are on at different times of day. You seem to prefer evening, and I'm a before-the-day-gets-started kind of person. (Not to be confused with "morning person." lol) So it seems I'm usually about 12 hours behind you, and in the same time zone even.

Need a cushion from sitting that long? lol

 

[Depleted]

So this is what I dislike about tv preachers. I agree God is just,I believe we sin. I believe one day He will pour out His wrath.But Jesus took our sins on Him,that was not Gods wrath on His Son,Jesus willingly took on the sins of the world. To say God poured out His wrath on His Son to me is an untrue statement. I dont agree with the Jesus that is being preached today,because He is not being preached in balance. We now preach Jesus is just a big teddy bear of love and I dont agree with that either. I do believe Jesus longs to have a personal relationship with us.No,He does not need us be He created us to have a relationship with Him. The Bible says God use to walk with Adam in the garden and I believe He longs for that relationship again.


Yet the Lord longs to be gracious to you;therefore he will rise up to show you compassion.



37O Jerusalem,Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her,how often I have longed to gather your children together,as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings,but you were unwilling!

But he didn't die to save all. And I'm thinking being separated from God, dying (and rarely do we die peacefully in our sleep quite content), and going to hell -- that place of eternal torment -- is extremely wrathful.

Think of the person who filled you with full-fledged wrath. How far did you conjure up that wrath? (Rhetorical question. No need to answer out loud.) In your wildest fit of anger how far can you go on wrath? Imagine your worst if you could fulfill your worst.

Okay, got that pictured? Not yet? Then keep going.

There now? Good. So you can see how far you could take it.

How's this one in comparison. How about throwing that person into a place of eternal torment and then destroying his/her legacy? (Killing the children and the spouse, or better yet. Destroying the entire family line several generations later.) And how about destroying the entire universe too?

You got your wrath in your mind. I just described God's wrath! He's done most of that to Esau, to the Pharaoh, and thousands of thousands if you read the OT. He will, literally, destroy the entire universe! How else is that new heavens and earth thingy going to happen?

His wrath is already playing out. It is the Ten Plagues of Egypt on grand scale. And that same wrath did land on his son to save the elect. What happened to Jesus was that spotless lamb. It was the lamb's blood smeared on the doorways. That was God's wrath still spent, because God deserves his wrath and it will happen. It is righteous anger, and righteous anything must be fulfilled.

His mercy saves some by the blood of Jesus. He does wrath better than anything we can imagine. He does mercy better too. He just has no plans on full immunity to all.

When the rider on the white horse shows up, end of story. Wrath is fully fulfilled in universe-destroying ways. The only way we survive that is he took the Father's wrath on himself to deflect it away from us. (The spelled out definition of "propitiation.")

 

[Depleted]

I was making an example of your post, that you too try and teach what you don't believe in and if you ask others to do it, you should also.
.I know someone will accuse me of hyprocrisy. But the difference is I am repeating what others have told me,they,believe and freely admit to not understanding their position.

That way if they say, no that's not what I meanr,they can elaborate instead of get mad and yell that they are being misrepresented.

Conversation:

Someone speaks.

Next person rephrase what they think is being said, maybe say if they agree or disagree.

Other person say "yes that is what I said" or "no this is what i,mean" and tries to explain.

Takes two to try and communicate ideas and get a really understanding of what the other person is saying.

Actually, that was a break in time/space continuum. You were at a spot in time 12 hours before me. (Except, it's not time. It's a thread.)

We're kind of stuck with this one, unless either you give up doing anything in the day but read this thread or I give up hubby-time at night to read this. I don't think either one of us is stupid enough to give up our lives just so we can talk on a thread. lol

Funny thing. Yesterday when I started reading this thread again, I was on page 20. There were only 3 more pages to read, so how long could this take? It was somewhere around 5 PM before I realized I was on page 25, and now the 23 page thread had become a 32 page thread.

(I have yet to check how many pages since then. )

 

[PrynceNY]

Not buying this calvinist stuff but it's interesting to hear what yall believe

 

[Depleted]

This idea is never presented in scripture. Prevenient grace is a misunderstanding of common grace. Saving grace is never resisted.

This idea of prevenient grace giving everyone a choice goes contrary to Jesus' own words and if reconciled with Jesus' words leads only to universalism or makes Jesus a liar. To say that God gives everyone a faith to believe is to say Jesus fails in his promise of raising up all those up that the Father has drawn.

35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

Jesus makes a point here that they have seen him and don't believe because only those the Father has given to him will come to him. If God draws all men, Jesus is obligated to save all those drawn:

43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

Two choices here. Either God draws all men and grants all men faith, which obligates Jesus to save every last man, woman, and child (universalism), or the alternative, Jesus is lying.

The view you present is Pelagian and not biblical.

There is a Pelagian on this thread. Muzungu.

Others may be semipelegan, but Muzungu is the only one claiming everyone is saved no matter what.

Even the nonCalvinist aren't buying that one.

 

[Depleted]

From gotquestions.org:

Prevenient grace is a phrase used to describe the grace given by God that precedes the act of a sinner exercising saving faith in Jesus Christ. The term prevenient comes from a Latin word that meant ”to come before, to anticipate.” By definition, every theological system that affirms the necessity of God’s grace prior to a sinner’s conversion teaches a type of prevenient grace. The Reformed doctrine of irresistible grace is a type of prevenient grace, as is common grace.

However, when the phrase “prevenient grace” is used in theological discussions, it is used in a specific way. In the context of the on-going Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, prevenient grace is referred to in order to object to the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace. This is the reason why, in both modern and historic times, it has also been called “resistible grace” or “pre-regenerating grace.” Since denying the necessity of God’s grace prior to a sinner’s conversion is clearly against biblical teaching, the non-Calvinist theological systems have to affirm a doctrine of grace that precedes a person’s exercising of saving faith. Since non-Calvinists do not believe the saving grace of God always results in the sinner coming to Christ, Christians down through the ages have referred to a type of grace they call prevenient. Simply put, prevenient grace is the grace of God given to individuals that releases them from their bondage to sin and enables them to come to Christ in faith but does not guarantee that the sinner will actually do so. Thus, the efficacy of the enabling grace of God is determined not by God but by man.

Yeah, but it still doesn't exist. In John 3:18-20, prevenient grace is that moment in time when God puts a light switch in the dark cave with us for us to decide if we're going to use it.

He doesn't. He wroughts/carries out the Light, not us. (John 3:21)