Calvinists,Im Asking...

[preacher4truth]

Lol! Made up doctrine! The lost won't repent on the last day, they will still hate God with weeping and gnashing teeth.

 

[Angela53510]

I know you have nothing against me sis, and I would not take it as if you were.

I believe perhaps you're being too technical and/or maybe have jumped a word. The fact is Peter is addressing the recipients as you know. It also implies those other elect who have not come into the fold toward whom God is patient.

You say it cannot mean "us" yet the fact remains that Biblical scholars have properly used it in that sense.

I also think you're seeing "eis" used for "you" when it is actually being used as "toward". (NASB, ESV &c). Thus "usward" would be correct because it is "toward us" as to whom Peter is speaking.

No, I am looking directly at the Greek. As I said before "eis" or είς is a preposition, which takes the accusative. It has a broad range of meaning, the simplest translation, is "into, in, among." Although as Bauer BDAG says in the Lexicon, certainly "with" or "toward" are good translations.

Humas ὑμᾶς is the accusative form of the world "you." It is the pronoun. Hamas ἡμας is the accusative form translated as "we," or "us."

The texts used by the KJV do use the word [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]ἡμας. But, I trust the scholarship of the USB because so many thousands of texts have been unearthed since the time the KJV scholars translated what were 7 very poor manuscripts, with many mistakes, just like this one.
[/FONT]
So, no, the reason it was used was not because it had the same sense, but because a copyist error was made some place in the 1550 years after Christ, which ended up in some of those late manuscripts.

All the modern versions agree it is "ὑμᾶς, which means "you."

So, with eis, "toward you," or "with you."


As for whether "εἰς [FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]ὑμᾶς" means us-ward, you will have to tell me, since I have no idea what US-WARD means! I wonder when it died out of usage? No wonder I stick to the Greek. No wonder I need to go study for this Intermediate Biblical Greek final! Yikes! Greek just makes so much more sense to me than KJV, ever! [/FONT]

 

[ForthAngel]

No, I am looking directly at the Greek. As I said before "eis" or είς is a preposition, which takes the accusative. It has a broad range of meaning, the simplest translation, is "into, in, among." Although as Bauer BDAG says in the Lexicon, certainly "with" or "toward" are good translations.

Humas ὑμᾶς is the accusative form of the world "you." It is the pronoun. Hamas ἡμας is the accusative form translated as "we," or "us."

The texts used by the KJV do use the word ἡμας. But, I trust the scholarship of the USB because so many thousands of texts have been unearthed since the time the KJV scholars translated what were 7 very poor manuscripts, with many mistakes, just like this one.

So, no, the reason it was used was not because it had the same sense, but because a copyist error was made some place in the 1550 years after Christ, which ended up in some of those late manuscripts.

All the modern versions agree it is "ὑμᾶς, which means "you."

So, with eis, "toward you," or "with you."


As for whether "εἰς ὑμᾶς" means us-ward, you will have to tell me, since I have no idea what US-WARD means! I wonder when it died out of usage? No wonder I stick to the Greek. No wonder I need to go study for this Intermediate Biblical Greek final! Yikes! Greek just makes so much more sense to me than KJV, ever!

If this dictionary is correct, it seems to mean the same thing either way....

Word Origin
adverb, Archaic.
1.
toward us.

 

[Angela53510]

The word you want to examine to show that the promise is not made to ALL of humanity is the word translated "any"

2 Peter 3:9 Greek Text Analysis

Greek Concordance: τινὰς (tinas) -- 24 Occurrences



It makes more sense that it means a certain group of people,or the "you" as in believers only not perishing.

Ariel, regardless of what you have found in some on-line concordance (and remember - pretty much all concordances are backward translations from KJV English into Greek.)

A Lexicon takes the actual Greek words, and translates them into English.

While tinas τινάς, can sometimes mean "any," the best meanings include "someone, something, a certain one, certain thing, anyone, anything."

In addition, your Bible Hub Concordance says tinas appears 24 times. And well that form of this adjective - Masculine, Accusative Plural.

But, in fact, the lexical form is tis, or ti. This word, in all its forms actually appears in the NT 543 times!

I'm not singling you out, Ariel, I appreciate that you are digging deeper. But, please do not use Greek to prove things, when you have no understanding of the language at all! No one should ever say that tis, and ti, are somehow different than tina or tinas. They are the same word.

Well, at least Bible Hub has the correct Greek word order. I think I might do a post on this one day, like after I write my final? Amateur Greek is the WORST possible way to prove anything! I only say this, because when I was a new Christian in the 1980's, and got a Strong's, I remember forming the most fanciful doctrines based on that Concordance. It was not the book's fault, but my lack of understanding Greek or Hebrew.

And now I have caught up (for now) to the end of this thread and I don't think I have anything to say! LOL Maybe proofreading Greek is my assignment for now?

 

[Ariel82]

Context is what defines the words here. The way the passage is worded and who is being spoken to determines who the all are.

It could be read either way. All referring to the believers alone or all the world.

The verse says ALL will be brought to repentance.

However it says God doesn't want ANY to perish.

The any word refers to a certain group of peope, specifically the YOU/ believers the letter is addressed to.

 

[Ariel82]

Yeah Angela,...this was kind of my point.

While tinas τινάς, can sometimes mean "any," the best meanings include "someone, something, a certain one, certain thing, anyone, anything."

Y'all falsely assume what I believe that verse means.

My point is if you want to show Universalist that God isn't gonna save all of humanity, you should focus on the Greek word translated as "any" not "all".

****


The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you (believers), not wishing that any (certain people/believers) should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

***

Reaching repentance is not the same as saving faith.

 

[ForthAngel]

It could be read either way. All referring to the believers alone or all the world.

The verse says ALL will be brought to repentance.

However it says God doesn't want ANY to perish.

The any word refers to a certain group of peope, specifically the YOU/ believers the letter is addressed to.

I am not a language expert, but I think the way the sentence is constructed says otherwise. "Any" and "all" refers back toward who is being addressed by the "toward you". It wouldn't make any sense otherwise to just switch the subject from "you (the elect or church)" to "all people".

 

[Ariel82]

Doesn't bother my understanding of the verse either way because it clearly shows that God's will is towards a certain group of people "any" doesn't refer to all the world.

People can argue about "all" they have less grounds to argue about "any" in Greek at least.

 

[Depleted]

Most on the free-will side expresses parts of the Pelagian heresy in one way or another though, whether they identify with it or not.

And that's why semi came along. It wasn't fully.

 

[SovereignGrace]

1 Peter 2:17 Adj-AMP
GRK: πάντας τιμήσατε τὴν
NAS: Honor all people, love
KJV: Honour all [men]. Love
INT: everyone show honor to the

2 Peter 3:9 Adj-AMP
GRK: ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν
NAS: to perish but for all to come
KJV: but that all should come
INT: to perish but all to repentance

Now this passage is worth reading and it clearly shows that "all" is everyone. Even our enemies, but it explains why some folks feel justify to attack anyone who don't agree with them...they just say "all" only means those they accept as "elect"



At judgement day ALL will repent especially when faced with hellfire but it will be too late.

Show me, with some scripture, that the lost will repent when faced with hellfire on Judgment day.

 

[preacher4truth]

I am not a language expert, but I think the way the sentence is constructed says otherwise. "Any" and "all" refers back toward who is being addressed by the "toward you". It wouldn't make any sense otherwise to just switch the subject from "you (the elect or church)" to "all people".

Yes the word any refers to the all who are the recipients. She's desperate to make God's Word say what she wants it to say.

 

[Ariel82]

Show me, with some scripture, that the lost will repent when faced with hellfire on Judgment day.

Philippians Chapter 2
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Romans 14:11 - For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Question: "What does it mean and when will it happen that every knee shall bow?"

Answer: The phrase “every knee shall bow” comes from the Old Testament book of Isaiah. In the last half of the book (chapters 40—66), God prophesies through Isaiah the coming comfort to His people, Israel, who are in exile in Babylon for their covenant unfaithfulness. The phrase in question is found in Isaiah 45:23, which reads, “By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.”

The main thrust of the overall passage is that God is the only one who can save His people, as opposed to the idols that are worshipped by the nations. God is God and there is no other (Isaiah 45:5–6, 18, 22). Those who turn from their idols will be saved. Those who do not will be ashamed. The bottom line is that, before God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear allegiance to God

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gotquestions.org/amp/every-knee-shall-bow.html

 

[Ariel82]

Yes the word any refers to the all who are the recipients. She's desperate to make God's Word say what she wants it to say.

Nope. I allow God's word to speak for itself and not my preconceived notions dictate what God's words actually say.

Would it change your world view that much of God said he would make the whole world repent?

 

[Johnny_B]

I can't find the OP on II Peter 3:9, I used to read it as the elect not perishing and coming to repentance, because of the context of beloved, yes the context is to the beloved and in that context it's talking about judgement. With Peter showing that God does not predestine any to hell, because God desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth, as Paul did in I Timothy 2:4. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

When you look at the overall context of the Bible, we see the people coming to Him is by His will, not His desire, want or wish as He does for all men. He also views us as already being His. John 10:14-15 "I know my own and my own know me........I lay down my life for the sheep" not the goats that become sheep, no He see us as sheep, so why would He be concerned with us repenting when He knows His own and knows they will repent and already speaks of them as already having repented?

He's not, with the immediate context being about judgement, how does He view the death of the wicked?

Ezekiel 18:23, 33:11 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

God's desire is that all come to the knowledge of the truth, that none should perish, that all should come to repentance. Will they? No. Does that mean that God is not desiring/wishing/wanting that they would repent? No. Does that mean that He is not desiring/wanting/wishing that any of them perish? Yes.

Peter is saying in, "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." What Ezekiel said in fuller detail.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Philippians Chapter 2
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Romans 14:11 - For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

How did I know you'd use that verse?

This is referring to even the lost bowing to the Lordship of the Christ on the day of Judgment. Not that they are pleading for forgiveness of their sins, but rather, bowing to Him.

 

[preacher4truth]

I can't find the OP on II Peter 3:9, I used to read it as the elect not perishing and coming to repentance, because of the context of beloved, yes the context is to the beloved and in that context it's talking about judgement. With Peter showing that God does not predestine any to hell, because God desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth, as Paul did in I Timothy 2:4. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

When you look at the overall context of the Bible, we see the people coming to Him is by His will, not His desire, want or wish as He does for all men. He also views us as already being His. John 10:14-15 "I know my own and my own know me........I lay down my life for the sheep" not the goats that become sheep, no He see us as sheep, so why would He be concerned with us repenting when He knows His own and knows they will repent and already speaks of them as already having repented?

He's not, with the immediate context being about judgement, how does He view the death of the wicked?

Ezekiel 18:23, 33:11 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

God's desire is that all come to the knowledge of the truth, that none should perish, that all should come to repentance. Will they? No. Does that mean that God is not desiring/wishing/wanting that they would repent? No. Does that mean that He is not desiring/wanting/wishing that any of them perish? Yes.

Peter is saying in, "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." What Ezekiel said in fuller detail.

No, you're forcing another passage into the context. It is only the recipients here to which Peter is addressing and of course those elect also who will come to repentance. Keep in mind the mocking as to the patience of God concerning the consummation of the age. Peter is saying strictly that such patience is afforded in time because God is awaiting all His elect to come to the fold. That is the context and meaning.

 

[Ariel82]

1 Timothy 2
1First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the mana Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

****

Read in context without preconceived notion that "all" can't possibly mean "all humanity" because it wouldn't fit your theology.

The next question is the word "desire" mean the same thing as "drag"?

No one will agrue that God desires all mankind will hear the Gospel and will make that happen.

 

[preacher4truth]

How did I know you'd use that verse?

This is referring to even the lost bowing to the Lordship of the Christ on the day of Judgment. Not that they are pleading for forgiveness of their sins, but rather, bowing to Him.

"misuse"...

 

[Ariel82]

Is there a difference between Jesus drawing people and God the Father drawing people?

Was Jesus still omniscient while on Earth?

I ask because he was fully human and he said about some things like judgement day only the Father knows.

Maybe only God knows Whom he draws to Jesus?

 

[Ariel82]

I can't find the OP on II Peter 3:9, I used to read it as the elect not perishing and coming to repentance, because of the context of beloved, yes the context is to the beloved and in that context it's talking about judgement. With Peter showing that God does not predestine any to hell, because God desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth, as Paul did in I Timothy 2:4. He is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentance.

When you look at the overall context of the Bible, we see the people coming to Him is by His will, not His desire, want or wish as He does for all men. He also views us as already being His. John 10:14-15 "I know my own and my own know me........I lay down my life for the sheep" not the goats that become sheep, no He see us as sheep, so why would He be concerned with us repenting when He knows His own and knows they will repent and already speaks of them as already having repented?

He's not, with the immediate context being about judgement, how does He view the death of the wicked?

Ezekiel 18:23, 33:11 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

God's desire is that all come to the knowledge of the truth, that none should perish, that all should come to repentance. Will they? No. Does that mean that God is not desiring/wishing/wanting that they would repent? No. Does that mean that He is not desiring/wanting/wishing that any of them perish? Yes.

Peter is saying in, "not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." What Ezekiel said in fuller detail.

Also Repentance does not automatically mean they have a saving faith in Jesus. What exactly are they repenting of?

Their rebellion to God (breaking the Law) or their unbelief in Jesus as Savior?