Not By Works

PeterJens · May 13, 2017

I am puzzled. Loose what? If I say I have a car. I know when I have it and I know when
it is gone. I can even prove the reality and show the car.

So when we have faith in Christ we have salvation. We believe so are saved.
Cause, faith, effect, salvation. We are given the Holy Spirit as a deposite and we see in our
lives love working through them.

So what happens if faith leaves us and the Holy Spirit no longer warms our hearts?
We no longer are part of the promise.

But let us get real. Do we know love and has it transformed us through Christ?
In Christ is there anything we lack? So why would we walk away and why would
fear grip our hearts. Jesus does not abandon His people or those who hope in
Him. The cross is eternal testimony to this.

I can see how some could see saying one can loose this love is similar to saying
I could be abandoned for no reason. Some have known this in their lives, and fear
this type of loss. God is not like that. You need though to know the limits of love
and understand it does have boundaries and rules. It is given freely to those who
open the door and walk in its ways.

So we can loose what we have gained, and choices need to be made. But they are
easy and good though the price is very high. Are you willing to pay, though I trust
most here know of what I share. What makes me wonder is how love is working to
show some of the fruits being displayed.

PeterJens · May 13, 2017

Divisions are strange things. A whole way of thinking can be derived from one idea.
It is this idea that is the true source of everything.

And this idea is the cross resolved all sin and judgement for sin for everyone.
Now for believers this is true if we walk a Holy life in the Spirit.

All the theology, name calling, labelling as evil, is justified by this one idea.
But it obviously is false, though very appealing. Rebuking for sin would not
be part of scripture if it was true. In the real world sin brings death, and dooms
us all.

In the gospel the Spirit brings life and victory. We are witnesses to this, light
in a dark place, love that does not go out.

The fruit of the changed teaching is this unwarranted antagonism.

But always there will be such situations and teachings, but if Jesus is glorified
Amen, for the elect will always walk among the lost and His word will prosper.

FranC · May 13, 2017

dcontroversal said:

Hi Dcon

Nice list you have there.
So many things one has to know just to be able to read the bible!!!
It's a wonder anyone at all understands it except those with a lot of initials after their name.

For your letter d.
Could you please provide scripture where Jesus is promising us everlasting life NO MATTER WHAT.
Thanks.

For your letter f.
How about the words, IF, CONTINUE, FALL AWAY, PROVIDED THAT, etc.

2 Peter 1:10
2 Peter 2:20-21
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 6:4-6
Philippians 3:7-11
Philippians 3:12-14
1 Corinthians 9:27
1 Corinthians 10:12
Colossians 1:21-23
Hebrews 3:12
Romans 11:20-22

And then there are all the words of Jesus Himself:

Mathew 5:17
Mathew 5:48
Mathew 7:13-14
Mathew 7:19
Mathew 7:13
Mathew 7:24
Mathew 13:20-21
Mathew 15:18
Mathew 16:24
Mathew 19:28
John 3:36
John 5:29
John 6:29
John 10:27-28
John 11:25
John 13:35
John 14:15
John 14:21
John 14:24
John 15:6
John 15:14

Could you please post some vereses where Jesus says we are only to have faith?
Thanks.

P.S. IF you're going to post a verse that says that God's work is that we BELIEVE,
PLEASE explain what BELIEVE means in the Greek since we're all such experts here.
Thanks.

BillG · May 13, 2017

FranC said:

Hi Fran.

John 6:29
Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Romans 5:1
Peace with God Through Faith
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word believe in John is Pisteuo which derives from the Greek word in Romans which is Pistis.

They both more or less mean the same.

In John it means to have faith, in, upon or with respect to a person or thing.
By implication it means to entrust ones self put trust in Christ.

In Romans as far it relates to Christ it is the conviction that Christ is whom he says he is and it's through him we obtain salvation.

It also implies trust/confidence in Jesus.

So think of believe in John as faith in Jesus.

FranC · May 13, 2017

BillG said:

Sorry Bill.

That's not what Believe means as it was used in the time the gospels and letters were written, in Greek.
Anyway what did it mean to have faith in those days?

I'm not really asking. I know the answer.
Let's see what dcon has to say.

Instead of calling those like me "cake eaters", which...

1. Is not very christianly of him.
2. Does not show good fruit .
3. Does not show love for his Christian Brothers.
4. Shows much pride in Assuming HE is right about everything, while at the same time accusing humble persons here of having pride.
5. Is a name caller instead of a verse poster.

We are not here to be mean to each other, but to discuss biblical concepts.

BillG · May 13, 2017

FranC said:

If I am wrong then so is my Strongs bible.

pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe(affirm, have confidence);

used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing).

Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.

BillG · May 13, 2017

FranC said:

The New Testament, however, was written in Greek. This seems strange, since you might think it would be either Hebrew or Aramaic. However, Greek was the language of scholarship during the years of the composition of the New Testament from 50 to 100 AD. The fact is that many Jews could not even read Hebrew anymore, and this disturbed the Jewish leaders a lot! So, around 300 BC a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek was undertaken, and it was completed around 200 BC. Gradually this Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint, was widely accepted and was even used in many synagogues. It also became a wonderful missionary tool for the early Christians, for now the Greeks could read God’s Word in their own tongue.
So the New Testament authors wrote in Greek. They did not, however, use really high-class or classical Greek, but a very common and everyday type of Greek. For many years some scholars ridiculed the Greek of the New Testament because many of its words were strange to those who read the writings of the great Greek classical authors such as Plato and Aristotle. But later many records were uncovered of ordinary people, and amazingly there were the same common terms used in everyday speech! The ridicule dried up accordingly.

mailmandan · May 13, 2017

BillG said:

Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not a check list of works. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith is a complete trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he said this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass (John 6:53-56)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above.

slave · May 13, 2017

FranC said:

You are right - the Bible says we are to believe and to receive. Believing Jesus was sent by God to shed His blood for us on a Cross and that He arose again enabling us to live a life worthy of God in light of ourselves being hidden in Christ Jesus. So both believe and receive are love from God and a love from us that represent a verb, and not just a noun.

John 1:12New International Version (NIV)

12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave /the right/ to become children of God—

BillG · May 13, 2017

slave said:

Yep a verb that relates to a noun.

believe, faith. This verb (pisteuō) and the related noun (pistis) refer to confidence that something is real, with a strong implication that action will ensue from this belief. While faith can be rather mundane (e.g., believing a report, 1 Cor 11:18), in the NT it almost always refers to faith in God or Christ. Such faith entails active belief, entrusting oneself completely to God.

FranC · May 13, 2017

BillG said:

The New Testament, however, was written in Greek. This seems strange, since you might think it would be either Hebrew or Aramaic. However, Greek was the language of scholarship during the years of the composition of the New Testament from 50 to 100 AD. The fact is that many Jews could not even read Hebrew anymore, and this disturbed the Jewish leaders a lot! So, around 300 BC a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek was undertaken, and it was completed around 200 BC. Gradually this Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint, was widely accepted and was even used in many synagogues. It also became a wonderful missionary tool for the early Christians, for now the Greeks could read God’s Word in their own tongue.
So the New Testament authors wrote in Greek. They did not, however, use really high-class or classical Greek, but a very common and everyday type of Greek. For many years some scholars ridiculed the Greek of the New Testament because many of its words were strange to those who read the writings of the great Greek classical authors such as Plato and Aristotle. But later many records were uncovered of ordinary people, and amazingly there were the same common terms used in everyday speech! The ridicule dried up accordingly.

Thanks for making my point that it is NOT difficult to understand the bible... IN ANY LANGUAGE.

slave · May 13, 2017

BillG said:

I can give you a real dollar (noun) and place it at your feet; but it won't be real to you unless you pick it up (verb) and spend it (use it) (verb).

Are you married? If so, is your love real between you two? If you said yes, it would only be real if you love the other as yourself, as a verb. Otherwise if you sat comfortable on that love as a given noun - good luck with that marriage being a real love relationship!

FranC · May 13, 2017

slave said:

Slave,
BELIEVE means a lot more than that.
We'll get to it eventually.........

(why can't I get this mailed off???)

FranC · May 13, 2017

slave said:

I can give you a real dollar (noun) and place it at your feet; but it won't be real to you unless you pick it up (verb) and spend it (use it) (verb).

Are you married? If so, is your love real between you two? If you said yes, it would only be real if you love the other as yourself, as a verb. Otherwise if you sat comfortable on that love as a given noun - good luck with that marriage being a real love relationship!

Perfect!!!

BillG · May 13, 2017

slave said:

I can give you a real dollar (noun) and place it at your feet; but it won't be real to you unless you pick it up (verb) and spend it (use it) (verb).

Are you married? If so, is your love real between you two? If you said yes, it would only be real if you love the other as yourself, as a verb. Otherwise if you sat comfortable on that love as a given noun - good luck with that marriage being a real love relationship!

Is your last paragraph directed at me?

FranC · May 13, 2017

mailmandan said:

Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Faith is not a check list of works. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ).

The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in James 2:19, or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation, as in Acts 16:31. In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. Saving belief/faith is more than just an "intellectual acknowledgment" to the existence and historical facts about Christ. Saving belief/faith is a complete trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claims that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards, he said this below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith".
Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES:
- Being baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass (John 6:53-56)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- We must suffer with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2)

His argument about faith being "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (their version of faith) + works. Roman Catholics seem to think by not teaching that justification comes through perfect obedience to the law that they are not teaching salvation by works, yet they still claim that we are saved by accomplishing this check list of works above.

NO MMD

Your Catholic friend is CORRECT.

If you understood what BELEIVE means and what FAITH is,
You'd agree with him.

But we here prefer to understand everything in terms of Jesus saving us and
OUR NOT HAVING TO DO ANYTHING IN RETURN.

Jesus did nothing but speak about works and what WE HAD TO DO to gain heaven.

Please stop giving us your opinions and post some verses where Jesus said to ONLY BELIEVE IN HIM and everything would be good.

THERE IS NONE.

Because the only one you'll find is the verse saying that we are to believe in Him whom God sent.

Catch-22

WHAT DOES BELIEVE MEAN???

BillG · May 13, 2017

slave said:

i am finding it difficult to see what you are finding fault with what I am saying.

The word we are taking about is what does faith/belief mean. If we place saving faith in Jesus the implications of it will follow through in us as an outworking of love.

FranC · May 13, 2017

BillG said:

Here we go Bill.
Strong's. What nonsense. Do you realize how long it takes to learn Koinè Greek?
That's like somebody trying to learn §English by reading a Webster's Dictionary.

I have plenty of access to a theologian who also taught theology AND who knows koinè Greek and taught it.
When I came here and started hearing about the AORIST tense to the point of nauseum, I went to him and asked about it.

He said to forget it. It's too complicated to explain and it changes depending on how one uses it. He said the bible is clear and it's not necessary to know Greek unless some theologians are trying to figure out some minute nuanse.

I hear it's a past action that goes into the future. THIS IS NOT CORRECT.
Anyone here could look this up on Google.
It's nice to post here what we THINK. But it's not WHAT IS.

Just using your explanation of believe ALONE, we'd have to conclude that if we're to have FAITH and TRUST in Jesus , then we'd have to do everything He said.

Which includes an interior change and which includes DOING THINGS, as He instructed.

Now, why are many afraid of this? Could it be because they feel they aren't doing enough?

WHEN, in history, did all this thinking begin? Was it around in the early days when people who knew Jesus wrote things?

Is anyone here interested in what THEY thought, or are we just interesgted in what Calving taught and what some in the past 200 years or so taught.

Do we trust THEM MORE than we trust those early persons who were there around the time right after Jesus died and who kept the faith clean from all the heresies that arose?

WHO DO WE TRUST?

Talk about religion watering down Christianity.
The latest theologians have watered down Christianity to the point that we can hardly distinguish a non-beliver from a believer.

And I think about new Christians reading along here.
They're told all they need is faith.
They're told they cannot lose their salvation.

I only hope they read the New Testament on their own and come to their own conclucion.
If one does this, the truth will come through.

So much Greek seems to be needed to destroy the two notions I listed.
So much twisting of what words mean and what who said it means.
IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS AND IT SAYS WHAT IT MEANS. SIMPLE.

Ahwatukee · May 13, 2017

FranC said:

Scripture also says that there are Lord's many and gospels many. Therefore, it is important to have the right Jesus and the right word. You cannot claim to be in Christ while engaging in idolatrous practices. That is in fact the meaning of when the kings of the earth and the inhabitants are intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries. It is figurative for being unfaithful to Christ while claiming to be his true follower.

We need to be in the right doctrine and not be blown about by every wind of doctrine. God's word is the standard. Anything that deviates from His word should be deemed as false. We should be like the Bereans who seared the scriptures daily to see if what Paul was telling them was the truth.

FranC · May 13, 2017

BillG said:

Slave is saying that you have to do things in order for a relationship to continue.

What if I don't FEEL like doing anything?
What if I don't FEEL like being nice to people?
Am I still good?
Is Jesus happy with me?
Based on what HE said, I don't believe He would be.

What Slave is saying, and I agree, is that we are REQUIRED to do works, it is NECESSARY to do works...
Whether or not we feel like it or whether or not we do them out of love or because JESUS COMMANDED THAT WE DO THEM.

Sometimes I don't like my husband,
I still make dinner.

Not By Works

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