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We are discussing what scripture tells us here, not personal interpretations but listening to the Lord. It isn't Catholics, Babtists, Judanizers, but bible students.
In scripture there are many records of people who love the Lord meeting on the Sabbath. There are many recotrds of other meetings, but they are not recorded as Sabbath meetings.
Anyone who is under the law for judgment must obey all the law to be judged rihteous. Christians go to the Lord to be declared righteous. I think that when you talk of not being under the law what you mean is that you are in rebellion against the law. The law is established by the Lord, it is part of creation. To rebel against it is to rebel against God. To be under the law is to use your own works for salvation. To be under Christ is to use the work of Christ for salvation. If we love Christ we will do our best to follow His guidance which is the law.
"Silliness" that there was the apostle age and the age of Constantine? To sum up these ages with the words "Constantine did it" is not reportingg history.
Having church is not the definition of the Sabbath. There is no scripture that speaks of going to church as an explanation of the Sabbath.
In scripture there are many records of people who love the Lord meeting on the Sabbath. There are many recotrds of other meetings, but they are not recorded as Sabbath meetings.
Anyone who is under the law for judgment must obey all the law to be judged rihteous. Christians go to the Lord to be declared righteous. I think that when you talk of not being under the law what you mean is that you are in rebellion against the law. The law is established by the Lord, it is part of creation. To rebel against it is to rebel against God. To be under the law is to use your own works for salvation. To be under Christ is to use the work of Christ for salvation. If we love Christ we will do our best to follow His guidance which is the law.
"Silliness" that there was the apostle age and the age of Constantine? To sum up these ages with the words "Constantine did it" is not reportingg history.
Having church is not the definition of the Sabbath. There is no scripture that speaks of going to church as an explanation of the Sabbath.
When posters tell what scripture says it is not "circular logic".
When John told that a meeting was still there at sunrise he did not use his reasoning to learn that.
It is circular reasoning to say God changed the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day, and you know that because some men met to discuss God's ways on days that were not the seventh day. Scripture tells us there were meetings other than the Sabbath, just as there are today. It does not say "God changed the Sabbath".
Also, it was discovered that Christ had risen on the first day of the week. That is when the discovery was made. Scripture does not say what day Christ rose. It was man's reasoning that decided what day Christ rose.
Thank you so very much for responding to these posts with scripture, but please don't respond with unfounded labels. That is not addressing the issuesl
When John told that a meeting was still there at sunrise he did not use his reasoning to learn that.
It is circular reasoning to say God changed the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day, and you know that because some men met to discuss God's ways on days that were not the seventh day. Scripture tells us there were meetings other than the Sabbath, just as there are today. It does not say "God changed the Sabbath".
Also, it was discovered that Christ had risen on the first day of the week. That is when the discovery was made. Scripture does not say what day Christ rose. It was man's reasoning that decided what day Christ rose.
Thank you so very much for responding to these posts with scripture, but please don't respond with unfounded labels. That is not addressing the issuesl
The same applies to you....
there is 'obviously a BLIP in communication that not even scripture seems able to rectify.
Keep on calling us 'judaizers' for walking with Jesus' and you are well on the way to*****
Cease from your false accusations and there may be a 'new beginning for you and those who think like you. (just helping you to repent and turn)
there is 'obviously a BLIP in communication that not even scripture seems able to rectify.
Keep on calling us 'judaizers' for walking with Jesus' and you are well on the way to*****
Cease from your false accusations and there may be a 'new beginning for you and those who think like you. (just helping you to repent and turn)
Grandpa,
re: "Well that's real weird, isn't it? How was he [Constantine] able to change everything when they were already doing it in Acts 20?"
The only thing Constantine changed with regard to Sunday observance was to enact the first (as far as is known) Sunday law in 321 AD.
re: "So we know for sure it wasn't Constantine. So we can stop repeating that lie, right?"
We? Speak for yourself. And how do you know it's liying and not simply due to a lack of knowledge?
re: "Because the scripture expressly says they met on the first day."
But how do you know for sure that they hadn't also met on the Sabbath?
BTW, there is never again a mention of anyone getting together on the first day of the week.
re: "Well that's real weird, isn't it? How was he [Constantine] able to change everything when they were already doing it in Acts 20?"
The only thing Constantine changed with regard to Sunday observance was to enact the first (as far as is known) Sunday law in 321 AD.
re: "So we know for sure it wasn't Constantine. So we can stop repeating that lie, right?"
We? Speak for yourself. And how do you know it's liying and not simply due to a lack of knowledge?
re: "Because the scripture expressly says they met on the first day."
But how do you know for sure that they hadn't also met on the Sabbath?
BTW, there is never again a mention of anyone getting together on the first day of the week.
The true Christian life is lived by grace through faith only - nothing to do with the law of Moses. As we have received Christ - we are to walk in Him and all that He has done.
Colossians 2:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
Real Christians have died on the cross with Christ and rose again at His resurrection to serve God in newness of life and not in the oldness of the letter.
If anyone comes with the message that "You must now follow the law of Moses as in observing the Sabbath or feasts days - if you do not - then you are dis-obeying God and sinning."....
..if you hear this - run from it because it is an anti-Christ belief system just like the Judaizers that came in to the Galatians and tried to get them to follow the law of Moses only their route was by circumcision. Some do it by eating certain foods only which is a sign of the those falling away from the faith ( 1 Tim. 4:1-5 )
Paul said that he did not stand for the Judaizers message for one hour so that the truth would remain with them. Gal. 2:5
Galatians 2:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.
Colossians 2:6-7 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
Real Christians have died on the cross with Christ and rose again at His resurrection to serve God in newness of life and not in the oldness of the letter.
If anyone comes with the message that "You must now follow the law of Moses as in observing the Sabbath or feasts days - if you do not - then you are dis-obeying God and sinning."....
..if you hear this - run from it because it is an anti-Christ belief system just like the Judaizers that came in to the Galatians and tried to get them to follow the law of Moses only their route was by circumcision. Some do it by eating certain foods only which is a sign of the those falling away from the faith ( 1 Tim. 4:1-5 )
Paul said that he did not stand for the Judaizers message for one hour so that the truth would remain with them. Gal. 2:5
Galatians 2:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.
Question: "Who were the Judaizers?"
Answer: There have always been those who balk at the idea of God’s salvation being offered freely to those who believe. They reason that such a grand gift as forgiveness from such a holy God must require some kind of payment from us. We thank God for His grace, but we understand that He expects us to somehow earn that grace—in other words, there must be something that we can do to pay off the debt we owe to God.
In the early church, those who taught a combination of God’s grace and human effort were called “Judaizers.” The word Judaizer comes from a Greek verb meaning “to live according to Jewish customs.” The word appears in Galatians 2:14 where Paul describes how he confronted Peter for forcing Gentile Christians to “Judaize.”
A Judaizer taught that, in order for a Christian to truly be right with God, he must conform to the Mosaic Law. Circumcision, especially, was promoted as necessary for salvation. Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes first, and then they could come to Christ.
The doctrine of the Judaizers was a mixture of grace (through Christ) and works (through the keeping of the Law). This false doctrine was dealt with in Acts 15 and strongly condemned in the book of Galatians.
At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, a group of Judaizers opposed Paul and Barnabas. Some men who belonged to the party of the Pharisees insisted that Gentiles could not be saved unless they were first circumcised and obeyed the Law of Moses.
Paul made the case that, in Christ, there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile, for God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (Acts 15:8–9). He said it plainly in Galatians 2:16: “A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”
To add anything to the work that Christ did for salvation is to negate God’s grace. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, not by returning to the Law. “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing” (Galatians 2:21).
There are many groups today with beliefs/practices very similar to the Judaizers of the New Testament. The two most prominent would be the Hebrew Roots Movement and the Roman Catholic Church. The teachings of the Hebrew Roots Movement are virtually identical to those of the Judaizers whom Paul rebuked in Galatians. A primary focus of the Hebrew Roots Movement is to put followers of Christ back under the bondage of the Old Testament Law.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches a doctrine similar to that of the Judaizers of the New Testament in this way: its doctrine is a mixture of law and grace. At the Council of Trent in the 16th century, the Catholic Church explicitly denied the idea of salvation by faith alone.
Catholics have always held that certain sacraments are necessary for salvation. The issues for the 1st-century Judaizers were circumcision and Sabbath-keeping. The issues for modern-day Catholics are baptism, confession, etc. The works considered necessary may have changed, but both Judaizers and Catholics attempt to merit God’s grace through the performance of ritualistic acts.
First Timothy 4:3 says that, in later times, false teachers will “forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.” This sounds suspiciously close to some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism, which requires priests to be celibate (“forbidding to marry”) and proclaims some food to be off-limits during Lent (“abstaining from certain foods”).
The Judaizers upheld the Mosaic Law as necessary for salvation; Catholics uphold man-made tradition as necessary; both view Christ’s death as being insufficient without the active and continued cooperation of the one being saved.
The Bible is clear that the attempt to add human works to God’s grace overlooks the very meaning of grace, which is “undeserved blessing.” As Paul says, “If by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace” (Romans 11:6). Praise the Lord, “Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).
https://gotquestions.org/Judaizers.html
I do not look at all Hebrew Roots adherents as all the same. As I have said before - there are many that are of authentic Jewish descent and they like their traditions but they do not say that others need to observe the Sabbath or feasts as in the law of Moses or you are dis-obeying God and sinning. They observe these things to see Christ as the fulfillment of them - not as something they "need" to do now.
This group has excellent teaching son how Christ has fulfilled the Law and show Christ in every part of the Old Testament. Jesus said that all the scriptures speak about Him.
This group of believers are a major blessing to us in the body of Christ and are not Judaizers such as Paul encountered and that are also in the extreme sects of Hebrew Roots that say believers in Christ must "observe the Sabbath and the feasts like in the law of Moses - or they are dis-obeying God and sinning".
Those - run away from as fast as you can! - but do not put all Hebrew Roots people I the same boat as the extreme sects because they are not the same.
Answer: There have always been those who balk at the idea of God’s salvation being offered freely to those who believe. They reason that such a grand gift as forgiveness from such a holy God must require some kind of payment from us. We thank God for His grace, but we understand that He expects us to somehow earn that grace—in other words, there must be something that we can do to pay off the debt we owe to God.
In the early church, those who taught a combination of God’s grace and human effort were called “Judaizers.” The word Judaizer comes from a Greek verb meaning “to live according to Jewish customs.” The word appears in Galatians 2:14 where Paul describes how he confronted Peter for forcing Gentile Christians to “Judaize.”
A Judaizer taught that, in order for a Christian to truly be right with God, he must conform to the Mosaic Law. Circumcision, especially, was promoted as necessary for salvation. Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes first, and then they could come to Christ.
The doctrine of the Judaizers was a mixture of grace (through Christ) and works (through the keeping of the Law). This false doctrine was dealt with in Acts 15 and strongly condemned in the book of Galatians.
At the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, a group of Judaizers opposed Paul and Barnabas. Some men who belonged to the party of the Pharisees insisted that Gentiles could not be saved unless they were first circumcised and obeyed the Law of Moses.
Paul made the case that, in Christ, there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile, for God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (Acts 15:8–9). He said it plainly in Galatians 2:16: “A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”
To add anything to the work that Christ did for salvation is to negate God’s grace. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, not by returning to the Law. “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing” (Galatians 2:21).
There are many groups today with beliefs/practices very similar to the Judaizers of the New Testament. The two most prominent would be the Hebrew Roots Movement and the Roman Catholic Church. The teachings of the Hebrew Roots Movement are virtually identical to those of the Judaizers whom Paul rebuked in Galatians. A primary focus of the Hebrew Roots Movement is to put followers of Christ back under the bondage of the Old Testament Law.
The Roman Catholic Church teaches a doctrine similar to that of the Judaizers of the New Testament in this way: its doctrine is a mixture of law and grace. At the Council of Trent in the 16th century, the Catholic Church explicitly denied the idea of salvation by faith alone.
Catholics have always held that certain sacraments are necessary for salvation. The issues for the 1st-century Judaizers were circumcision and Sabbath-keeping. The issues for modern-day Catholics are baptism, confession, etc. The works considered necessary may have changed, but both Judaizers and Catholics attempt to merit God’s grace through the performance of ritualistic acts.
First Timothy 4:3 says that, in later times, false teachers will “forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.” This sounds suspiciously close to some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism, which requires priests to be celibate (“forbidding to marry”) and proclaims some food to be off-limits during Lent (“abstaining from certain foods”).
The Judaizers upheld the Mosaic Law as necessary for salvation; Catholics uphold man-made tradition as necessary; both view Christ’s death as being insufficient without the active and continued cooperation of the one being saved.
The Bible is clear that the attempt to add human works to God’s grace overlooks the very meaning of grace, which is “undeserved blessing.” As Paul says, “If by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace” (Romans 11:6). Praise the Lord, “Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).
https://gotquestions.org/Judaizers.html
I do not look at all Hebrew Roots adherents as all the same. As I have said before - there are many that are of authentic Jewish descent and they like their traditions but they do not say that others need to observe the Sabbath or feasts as in the law of Moses or you are dis-obeying God and sinning. They observe these things to see Christ as the fulfillment of them - not as something they "need" to do now.
This group has excellent teaching son how Christ has fulfilled the Law and show Christ in every part of the Old Testament. Jesus said that all the scriptures speak about Him.
This group of believers are a major blessing to us in the body of Christ and are not Judaizers such as Paul encountered and that are also in the extreme sects of Hebrew Roots that say believers in Christ must "observe the Sabbath and the feasts like in the law of Moses - or they are dis-obeying God and sinning".
Those - run away from as fast as you can! - but do not put all Hebrew Roots people I the same boat as the extreme sects because they are not the same.
beta,
re: "Mk 16v9 says 'was risen' past tense"
You left out the rest of the phrase - "...early the first day of the week..."
When was the Messiah risen? Answer - "early the first day of the week".
BTW, any particular reason for quoting my statement - "I'm not aware of John saying that. What do you have in mind?" and then not addressing it?
re: "Mk 16v9 says 'was risen' past tense"
You left out the rest of the phrase - "...early the first day of the week..."
When was the Messiah risen? Answer - "early the first day of the week".
BTW, any particular reason for quoting my statement - "I'm not aware of John saying that. What do you have in mind?" and then not addressing it?
Just a reminder for those who keep harping on the law. The 7th day set aside from other days for Holy use is way before the law came through Moses.
when you base the cessation of the Sabbath on arguments concerning the law you have 100% missed the boat.
It still mind boggles me that anyone can read Gen and argue that the Sabbath does not matter or count anymore. Its a sad day when followers of Christ think of Christs creation as common and optional.
when you base the cessation of the Sabbath on arguments concerning the law you have 100% missed the boat.
It still mind boggles me that anyone can read Gen and argue that the Sabbath does not matter or count anymore. Its a sad day when followers of Christ think of Christs creation as common and optional.
Lets take the convo into its origin. Gen 2. The 7th day being made Holy By our Lord and Saviour Jesus.
We glean a few things when we do this.
1. The 7th day was before the law given by God through Moses.
2. The 7th day was made holy way before the Jewish nation thus not just for Jews only.
3. The 7th day Holy was done before there was sin in our world, Thus anything that has to do with eradicating sin can not apply to the 7th day being holy.
any more?
We glean a few things when we do this.
1. The 7th day was before the law given by God through Moses.
2. The 7th day was made holy way before the Jewish nation thus not just for Jews only.
3. The 7th day Holy was done before there was sin in our world, Thus anything that has to do with eradicating sin can not apply to the 7th day being holy.
any more?
Does Jesus teach us Christians to keep the Sabbath? What verse?
Do the Disciples of Jesus teach us to keep the Sabbath? What verse?
IF you have read the Old Testament, you know full well how important it was to keep the Sabbath Day holy to the Lord, you were KILLED if you did not keep it to the Lord. A man was stoned to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath Day. The Old Testament over and over and over again taught "Keep the Sabbath". Yet do we see Jesus Christ teach us Christians to continue to Keep the Sabbath? Do we see any Disciple/Apostle teach us to continue to Keep the Sabbath? NOPE, not one solitary verse instructs us Christians to continue to Keep the Sabbath Day Holy, NOT ONE. Now Christians today will teach you that we are to continue to keep the Sabbath because Jesus and the Disciple all taught on the Sabbath, therefore since they kept it we are to keep it to. What these same people who teach you that fail to teach you is that Jesus and the Disciples taught EVERY DAY. But you see since Scriptures plainly teaches that they taught on the SABBATH, which is the best day of the week to teach a mass of people that all come together, to hear the Word of the Lord. But just because Scriptures teaches they taught on the Sabbath Day, this is their sole basis for teaching we must Keep the Sabbath Day Holy to the Lord, which Jesus nor any Apostle ever instructed us to do. Do you know who else was bent out of shape because of the Sabbath? The Pharisees. They got on Jesus several times because Jesus indeed did break the Sabbath Day according to the Rules of the Old Testament.
Old Testament extremely important to keep the Sabbath, because it is repeated over and over and over again in many different Books in many different places.
Yet the New Testament does not instruct us Christians not even ONCE to keep the Sabbath. If it were that important to Keep the Sabbath, Don't you think Jesus would have instructed us to Keep it? Don't you think one of the 12 Apostles would have instructed us to Keep it? Don't you think the Holy Ghost which is the one who told them what to write, would instruct us to Keep the Sabbath Day? Yet NONE of them instruct this of us Christians. How are they who teach you MUST keep it, not trying to add a burden on us that even those under the Old Covenant could NOT KEEP? They do error, those who teach you MUST do that.
Now if you want to do it, that is a different Story. How can Jesus not be pleased if you WANT to Keep it for Him? i have kept the Sabbath for over 12 years now, i will not work for money on the Sabbath, i will do good, but not work for money. Click on the website below, and click on "Sabbath Keeping" to find out more information on that topic.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave.com
Do the Disciples of Jesus teach us to keep the Sabbath? What verse?
IF you have read the Old Testament, you know full well how important it was to keep the Sabbath Day holy to the Lord, you were KILLED if you did not keep it to the Lord. A man was stoned to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath Day. The Old Testament over and over and over again taught "Keep the Sabbath". Yet do we see Jesus Christ teach us Christians to continue to Keep the Sabbath? Do we see any Disciple/Apostle teach us to continue to Keep the Sabbath? NOPE, not one solitary verse instructs us Christians to continue to Keep the Sabbath Day Holy, NOT ONE. Now Christians today will teach you that we are to continue to keep the Sabbath because Jesus and the Disciple all taught on the Sabbath, therefore since they kept it we are to keep it to. What these same people who teach you that fail to teach you is that Jesus and the Disciples taught EVERY DAY. But you see since Scriptures plainly teaches that they taught on the SABBATH, which is the best day of the week to teach a mass of people that all come together, to hear the Word of the Lord. But just because Scriptures teaches they taught on the Sabbath Day, this is their sole basis for teaching we must Keep the Sabbath Day Holy to the Lord, which Jesus nor any Apostle ever instructed us to do. Do you know who else was bent out of shape because of the Sabbath? The Pharisees. They got on Jesus several times because Jesus indeed did break the Sabbath Day according to the Rules of the Old Testament.
Old Testament extremely important to keep the Sabbath, because it is repeated over and over and over again in many different Books in many different places.
Yet the New Testament does not instruct us Christians not even ONCE to keep the Sabbath. If it were that important to Keep the Sabbath, Don't you think Jesus would have instructed us to Keep it? Don't you think one of the 12 Apostles would have instructed us to Keep it? Don't you think the Holy Ghost which is the one who told them what to write, would instruct us to Keep the Sabbath Day? Yet NONE of them instruct this of us Christians. How are they who teach you MUST keep it, not trying to add a burden on us that even those under the Old Covenant could NOT KEEP? They do error, those who teach you MUST do that.
Now if you want to do it, that is a different Story. How can Jesus not be pleased if you WANT to Keep it for Him? i have kept the Sabbath for over 12 years now, i will not work for money on the Sabbath, i will do good, but not work for money. Click on the website below, and click on "Sabbath Keeping" to find out more information on that topic.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave.com
A common misconception that people have and argue against the Sabbath is that it is not commanded directly in the New testament. This is based on an assumption, I say assumption because it is not seen in scripture.
Namely that the new replaces the Old testament. I am talking bible here not covenant. Of course the new covenant replaces the Old covenant. But the new and old bible writings are both current and needed to know God and his ways.
People assume that only what is directly commanded in the New is applicable. The bible does not teach this in any way.
As far as old covenant vs new covenant, The 7th day being Holy is before the Old Covenant anyway. So proving the Old Covenant is done away with which it is says nothing about the Sabbath.
Namely that the new replaces the Old testament. I am talking bible here not covenant. Of course the new covenant replaces the Old covenant. But the new and old bible writings are both current and needed to know God and his ways.
People assume that only what is directly commanded in the New is applicable. The bible does not teach this in any way.
As far as old covenant vs new covenant, The 7th day being Holy is before the Old Covenant anyway. So proving the Old Covenant is done away with which it is says nothing about the Sabbath.
You guys aren't reading and you're definitely not understanding. Nowhere in Acts 20 does it say they met on the sabbath.
You are assuming. You are so stuck in your error you can't comprehend the truth.
They met on the first day of the week. The sabbath had absolutely nothing to do with their meeting or how long it lasted.
You are assuming. You are so stuck in your error you can't comprehend the truth.
They met on the first day of the week. The sabbath had absolutely nothing to do with their meeting or how long it lasted.