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Arminians have any free will doctrine? Almost none of them I met had any. Hardly even some vogue impossible idea.
I think they just like the term, without actually thinking about it.
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kaylagrl
Guest
Id have to dig out the book,its been several years since I read it. I really need to come into the tech age a get Kindle I guess.Im about to read the Institutes because Id like a better view of Calvin.
All such books are available for free, they have no copyright.
So you can read it right now:
Institutes of the Christian Religion - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
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kaylagrl
Guest
Ahh a kindle...yeah they are good. I find some of the prices not that much cheaper..but boy does it save space lol. I would say if you want to understand what 'Calvinism' is then the institues is certainly a good source, you still may not agree but at the least you will know what Calvin is saying. Even none Calvinists have benefited from the 'Institues', just as Calvinists/reformed have benefited from the writings of non reformed.
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kaylagrl
Guest
Quote "most of reformed Christians are not as pro-semitic as you are"
I thought that question was asked pages ago. Was there an answer? You have given yours,do others feel the same? Thoughts?
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kaylagrl
Guest
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kaylagrl
Guest
Hey!!!! How come I didn't know that? Thanks for the link. Suppertime here but I'll have some time to myself later tonight.
I downloaded it on Kindle, for free. A Kindle app on a device would do the same thing. Trouble is, I have never read it! Something for me to do, also!
Everyone likes to talk about the heretic Calvin executed the sentence on, he was wanted by the state and Calvin warned him that if he can to Geneva that he would have to arrest and execute him, yet he still came and Calvin carried out the states order execution. How is a state ordered execution worse then the murder of an innocent man because David committed adultery with his wife. David was much worse that Calvin and no one ever says how horrible David was. The Bible never leaves out the faults of it heroes. Abraham go to Egypt and lied, God did not tell him to go there in Egypt he picked up a maidservant named Hagar, you know the rest of the story.
Well, yes they do
It's flimsy at best since it is defended by context-less verses that say "whosoever" and they are like "see, see! whosoever!" and call it free will.
Chances are your last sentence is more likely though and I think that state of mind stems from pride and resistance to God's sovereignty. Hard for a prideful person to admit that they have to submit to God's will and realize he is in control. It also shows a lack of faith and trust IMO.
I asked earlier on this thread for a clearly defined free-will stance and am still waiting for it. WoF would say our will is free to the extent that we can actually speak things into existence like God can and that God can't actually do anything unless we allow it. They do think we are little "I ams" after all. I know most on the free will side don't believe this, but they are still incapable of defining it in a way I understand which leads me to believe that they don't understand their own position.
On the one hand they admit that salvation is God given and man doesn't do anything, BUT I(we) have to...
They always have to throw that "but I (we) have to..." in there which completely undermines what they say about it's all God and not us.
This is a good question when we answer this question we are really refering to our view on eschatology (end times). I'm not sure I would say I'm pro this or that group of people...we need to love all people (not naneasy thing to do lol). But I take it when we say 'pro' we refer to it in context of our end time views.
In the reformed camp thee are many views, in fact basically all eschatoligical views are held. Amillenial; (Historic) pre-millenialism, post- milleilism and even dispensationalism.
A good chunk of reforme are either amillenial or (Historic) premillenial, a good chunk post millenial and a smaller chunk dispensational.
Examples:
The Prince of preachers Charles Spurgeon was (Historic) Pre-millenial.
BB Warfield and Charles Hodge where Postmillenialists.
John MacArtur is Dispensational
And Amillenial is quite wide spread in the reformed camp -Abraham Kyuper, luois Berkhoff etc.
Before the 1830's there was no such thing as dispensationalism, as it ws really formulated by J Darby.
I'm Amillinial, however even here there are different views on the place of ethnic jews. Yes we believe that all of those in Christ are Israel as Jesus Himself is the true Isrealite (Israel). But, what do we do with Romans 11, I stand in the camp tha believes that God will bring in Huge swathes of Jews into the Kingdom as we near the end of this age. I don't believe there are 2 seperate ways of salvation, Jew and Gentile can only come to the Father in and through Christ Jesus. There is no other way. I don't believe that ethnic Jews have the God give claim to the land, all Israel (all in Christ)will inherit the land - the New Heavens and earth. The land is about God "dwelling" with his people... it started in Eden- through the Tabernacle and land, now in His people through the Holy Spirit and once again when all things are renewed in the age to come. God will dwell with His glorified people- Jew and Gentile.
Eschatology in the reformed camp is as varied as is the denominations - Baptists,Presbyterians, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Non - denominational and yes even Methodists (well in wales). Infact the biggest evangelical church in N.Ireland is Pentecostal and reformed! (As in they hold to TULIP).
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kaylagrl
Guest
I dont know that that made anything clearer.lol Perhaps this is this issue.Many differing views under one umbrella.
So for yourself do you see a difference between the OT and the NT?I believe that we are living in the age of grace. IE. we do not live under the OT laws,God doesn't strike sinners dead as He did in the OT and I can only recall that happening once in the NT. Now we await the final judgement when God will pour out his wrath. Perhaps Scripture can say it better...
Gal.3 - 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
It seems Calvin was using OT punishment on people deemed heretics.Paul said,
“A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people.Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth” (2 Timothy 2:24-25)
That's a good question as well Kaylagrl. Regarding different views all the reformed hold to TULIP, yet many differ on matters of a secondary issue ie, are the gifts for today or not, Infant baptism vs. Believers Baptism and end times etc. But they will hold to TULIP.
Regarding the OT and NT, we are not under the Mosaic covenant, that is under the law, we are in the New covenant. However, we do have to remember that both covenants were given by God's grace. The covenant of grace was given to Abraham (for all the stipulations were taken on by God unlike the Mosaic covenant (Law)). Abraham believed and in was reckoned/accounted to him as righteousness. Under this overarching Covenant God has dealt with His people in 2 different ways, 1. The Mosaic covenant and, 2. The New Covenant in Jesus Christ - the fulfilment of the promise to Abraham (Although already - but not yet,).
Calvin, never used the OT Law to condemn anyone. The law of the land did, as I said in an earlier post the law in Europe at that time stipulated that Blasphemy was illegal and the penalty was death (usually), pretty much like certain laws in the USA stipulate that if you break them you will be punished by execution and plenty of Christians in the USA would agree with that wholeheartedly??? Is that using OT law standards???
You state that God does not strike sinners to death anymore? Well I don't know that and I can probably safely say no one else does either, we had better not go where scripture doesn't take us.
And I agree that we are not under the Law, and so would Calvin, but Grace. That does not nullify our requirement to be obedient to the moral law, but that we have been set free to do it. And it can be summed up like this. .Love God with all your heart and love your neighbour!
So no, Calvin did not work under a framework of the mosaic covenant and neither do we..
Source:https://heidelblog.net/2009/01/calvin-on-law-and-gospel/
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I've already talked about this myth, that only the New Covenant is a covenant of grace. Because, if God is a God of grace, why would he be dealing out law, that does not have grace as its underpinnings.
To put it another way, your eschatology is ruining your soteriology!
What do I mean by this? Well, you have this erroneous idea that there is a Plan B for the Jews. I see it no where in the Bible. There is only one way. Gal. 3:28 sums this up. In fact, it even says there is no longer Jew nor Greek.
"There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female;for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28.
WE ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS!!
Where is this future nonsense of God taking home Christians, but leaving unsaved Jews behind even come from? (Spare me 1 Thess. 4:17 and other verses, the Greek says NOTHING of a rapture!)
In fact, every single verse of the NT is about there is only ONE way to God! And that is believing in Jesus Christ, before we die, or he returns for good.
So, you start with this faulty assumption, KG, that Jews are somehow more than the Gentiles, which is not Scriptural. Show me the verse that says "Jews don't need to be saved, because they are already saved!" No, wait, that is the Jews who think that! So, show me the verse that says, "Everyone else in the whole world needs to be saved by faith in Christ, but the Jews, who failed over and over from Genesis to Malachi to follow God, get a free pass to the next round?"
It is ludicrous to have that as the foundation of both your soteriology and eschatology. I find it ironical, that you want to believe that the Old Covenant was not a covenant of grace, but on the other hand, that it is a covenant of law, which the Jews did not obey, and it is OVER!! Yet you say on the other hand, these Jews today who live imperfectly under the OT laws, (of course, there is no temple and no sacrifices, so it is over!) are somehow saved in the New Covenant although they don't believe in Jesus as their Messiah.
So, have 2000 years of unbelieving Jews also been saved? I find that difficult to understand.
And all those so-called prophecies of a return to the land? Well, God did bring them back, after the Babylonian captivity. And they continued to walk their own way, to make legalism their religion, and they denied THEIR Messiah when they had the chance to worship him!
The problem with dispensationalism, is that it is so new, and so focused on us, instead of the the people the bible was written to.
It has been made up by people without a clue what the Bible says.
Case in point. What do dispies say about our time? Something about being the last generation, on the basis of Israel being a nation, even though much more than a generation has passed since Partition. Let's look at what the Bible says about end times.
Matt 24 - a great chapter on end times, you will agree?
It starts with Jesus talking about one thing!
"As Jesus left and was going out of the temple complex, His disciples came up and called His attention to the temple buildings. 2 Then He replied to them, “Don’t you see all these things? I assure you: Not one stone will be left here on another that will not be thrown down!” Matt 24:1-2
So the chapter starts with Jesus coming out of the temple complex and saying to his disciples that the temple was going to be thrown down, every single stone. We all know when that happened, it was 70 AD, and not only was every rock in the temple thrown down, all of Jerusalem was destroyed.
So, Jesus continues talking to his disciples, who ask him about this.
"While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?” Matt 24:3
So Jesus answer is to tell them all the things that are going to happen, leading up to 70 AD. He doesn't even begin to talk about his 2nd coming. He talks about Israel being destroyed. In fact, he doesn't even begin to talk about his second coming and only briefly in 24:29-31
Dispensationalist take all these "this generation" - meaning the generation of the birth of the church and the disciples, to mean after Israel is re-established almost 2000 years later. Do you think the disciples were really asking him about some long distant future event (let's not even pretend to call 2000 years a week, ok?) when he was just talking about the temple being razed by Titus in 70 AD.
So, why do I think this? Well, because Jesus, after some back and forth, concerning his coming, and the present times, goes right back to the TRIBULATION! Well, you must recognize that important sign, right Kayla?
And when will this tribulation happen?
"I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place." Matt 24:34.
So which generation, ours, or theirs? To understand this, you need to understand and important device of both Hebrew and Greek speech, called a chiasm. I talked about this somewhere else recently.
Basically, you can not look at chapter 24 of Matthew, and say that he starts now and progresses rapidly to some end times tribulation in our day, and then his return, and everything after that is after he returns. Instead, the chiasm starts with fact A, then fact B, then fact C, then fact D, then fact C1 which is in someway similar to C, then B1, someway similar to B, then A1, somehow similar to A. And the D, in the middle, is the most important part.
A
___B
_____C
_______D
_____C1
___B1
A1
Or you could have a simpler version like this.
A
___B
_____C
___B1
A1
The middle step is the most important. And for me, that looks like 24:29-31. And this is not mathematics, there may be a step missing, or something not quite matching. It is a poetic device.
A lot of talk, all to say, that if the Jews get yet another chance, after they failed to receive him before the crucifixion, why would God wait 2000 years? Or, if they get another chance, is God that unfair, that only these people, who may or may not (likely not!) be descended from Abraham get to be rebellious another 2000 years, and then when there is no choice, they "get" to believe in Christ? That is just such fantasy and so unscriptural!
So, am I being anti-Semitic, to say that the Jews had 1500 years of time to believe God and obey him, and many did not. When Jesus (a Jew) appeared in Palestine, and they rejected him, AGAIN, do they really get another chance?
My suggestion is to read the Old Testament KG. Look for God's grace, compared to the surrounding cultures, who had no idea what to do to appease their gods. They were desperate people in a hostile world with capricious gods. The Jews were BLESSED with grace, and YHVH, called them, delivered them out of Egypt, helped them conquer Israel, even when they did not obey his commands and do it correctly for their own good, even when they continued to follow false gods, (the dead ones, with blind eyes, and no hearing!) and when the prophets warned them over and over and over (God's grace again!!) they kept going their own way, killing the prophets and then God's Son!
I do want the people now known as the Jews to have a home, because of what WWII did to them. But, is this the sign of the end, or was the fall of the temple the end of the old age, and the real beginning in fullness of the Kingdom of God? I think you know my answer! There is no Plan B for the Jews!
It has been made up by people without a clue what the Bible says.
Case in point. What do dispies say about our time? Something about being the last generation, on the basis of Israel being a nation, even though much more than a generation has passed since Partition. Let's look at what the Bible says about end times.
Matt 24 - a great chapter on end times, you will agree?
It starts with Jesus talking about one thing!
"As Jesus left and was going out of the temple complex, His disciples came up and called His attention to the temple buildings. 2 Then He replied to them, “Don’t you see all these things? I assure you: Not one stone will be left here on another that will not be thrown down!” Matt 24:1-2
So the chapter starts with Jesus coming out of the temple complex and saying to his disciples that the temple was going to be thrown down, every single stone. We all know when that happened, it was 70 AD, and not only was every rock in the temple thrown down, all of Jerusalem was destroyed.
So, Jesus continues talking to his disciples, who ask him about this.
"While He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached Him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what is the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?” Matt 24:3
So Jesus answer is to tell them all the things that are going to happen, leading up to 70 AD. He doesn't even begin to talk about his 2nd coming. He talks about Israel being destroyed. In fact, he doesn't even begin to talk about his second coming and only briefly in 24:29-31
Dispensationalist take all these "this generation" - meaning the generation of the birth of the church and the disciples, to mean after Israel is re-established almost 2000 years later. Do you think the disciples were really asking him about some long distant future event (let's not even pretend to call 2000 years a week, ok?) when he was just talking about the temple being razed by Titus in 70 AD.
So, why do I think this? Well, because Jesus, after some back and forth, concerning his coming, and the present times, goes right back to the TRIBULATION! Well, you must recognize that important sign, right Kayla?
And when will this tribulation happen?
"I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place." Matt 24:34.
So which generation, ours, or theirs? To understand this, you need to understand and important device of both Hebrew and Greek speech, called a chiasm. I talked about this somewhere else recently.
Basically, you can not look at chapter 24 of Matthew, and say that he starts now and progresses rapidly to some end times tribulation in our day, and then his return, and everything after that is after he returns. Instead, the chiasm starts with fact A, then fact B, then fact C, then fact D, then fact C1 which is in someway similar to C, then B1, someway similar to B, then A1, somehow similar to A. And the D, in the middle, is the most important part.
A
___B
_____C
_______D
_____C1
___B1
A1
Or you could have a simpler version like this.
A
___B
_____C
___B1
A1
The middle step is the most important. And for me, that looks like 24:29-31. And this is not mathematics, there may be a step missing, or something not quite matching. It is a poetic device.
A lot of talk, all to say, that if the Jews get yet another chance, after they failed to receive him before the crucifixion, why would God wait 2000 years? Or, if they get another chance, is God that unfair, that only these people, who may or may not (likely not!) be descended from Abraham get to be rebellious another 2000 years, and then when there is no choice, they "get" to believe in Christ? That is just such fantasy and so unscriptural!
So, am I being anti-Semitic, to say that the Jews had 1500 years of time to believe God and obey him, and many did not. When Jesus (a Jew) appeared in Palestine, and they rejected him, AGAIN, do they really get another chance?
My suggestion is to read the Old Testament KG. Look for God's grace, compared to the surrounding cultures, who had no idea what to do to appease their gods. They were desperate people in a hostile world with capricious gods. The Jews were BLESSED with grace, and YHVH, called them, delivered them out of Egypt, helped them conquer Israel, even when they did not obey his commands and do it correctly for their own good, even when they continued to follow false gods, (the dead ones, with blind eyes, and no hearing!) and when the prophets warned them over and over and over (God's grace again!!) they kept going their own way, killing the prophets and then God's Son!
I do want the people now known as the Jews to have a home, because of what WWII did to them. But, is this the sign of the end, or was the fall of the temple the end of the old age, and the real beginning in fullness of the Kingdom of God? I think you know my answer! There is no Plan B for the Jews!
K
kaylagrl
Guest
Quote ""Jews don't need to be saved, because they are already saved!" No, wait, that is the Jews who think that! So, show me the verse that says, "Everyone else in the whole world needs to be saved by faith in Christ, but the Jews, who failed over and over from Genesis to Malachi to follow God, get a free pass to the next round?"
You have misunderstood what I have said.I have not said Jews are saved already,nor are they saved any other way but though belief in Christ,like the rest of us. Romans 11 speaks of this and says they are not beyond hope.
You have also misunderstood what I have said about the OT. God is a God of grace,of course, His mercy endures forever. But with the coming of Christ we are not under the law but under grace because Christ is the sacrifice for our sins. He paid the price so we dont have to if we trust in Him.We dont live by trying to keep the law because we fail.Jesus stopped all that with His sacrifice for all.
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kaylagrl
Guest
Quote "[FONT="]There is no Plan B for the Jews!"
A plan B is not needed,plan A is still in place. [/FONT]
I think you mean "vague" new English word
Hmmm, yeah
Sometimes I just hope I do not create anything impropriate by my free will choice of English words
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