-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D
Depleted
Guest
I agree with you that there are verses in the Bible that talk about choice. I disagree with you that there are verses in the Bible that talk about free will.
And as for "Why would God say such things if the choice of election had already been made?" Hasn't he already told us how he chooses to bring about his eternal kingdom? Is that somehow unfair because we already know how this ends?
Did God not determine Trump would be President before he became President? Did he not choose Obama before he became President? Did that end our election?
Did God not choose Abraham to be the Father of a nation God chose? Did God not know that meant his people would spend 400 years at the whim of Egyptians? Did that not mean God knew his nation would have to wipe out nations already living in that land? And although he decreed those people had to wipe out those nations, did God not know those people would not do what God told them to do?
God's not strolling along to see what Man will do and then pick up the pieces. He preordained what would happen because he is sovereign. Even the Pharaoh was beginning to give in, but God would not have that because it went against what God would do. The Pharaoh had free will and willed evil. God trapped him in that will for God's divine purposes.
And if you think that's not how God works it today, it's time to reread Romans 1, because he's still doing that. Man chooses evil. That is our default mode. Sometimes God has mercy on us anyway. Sometimes people are sealed into that evil even further than they ever planned. He hardens some. This is what he does with free will.
It includes election. He's the one at the voting booth, not us. He's the only voter who gets his way each and every time. Just because everyone thinks they're the winners of the election doesn't mean God concurs with that decision. Hilary thought she won. God elected a different strategy. (And we do not know if that was for the good of America or the bad of America yet.)
This is infinitely fair because God reigns sovereignly!!!
A
Ariel82
Guest
D
Depleted
Guest
I would think the person who could prove "the Bible says we have free will." lol
(I have yet to meet that person though. And I suspect your response to me --if you even respond to me -- will include many things from the Bible about people choosing, but nothing about free will.)
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
"But I did not want to do anything without first getting your consent, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will." Phil 14
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
"On Calvinism, both the statement that our final destination is already settled and the view that it still may be either Heaven or Hell, seem to me to imply the ultimate reality of Time, which I don't believe in. The controversy is one I can’t join on either side for I think that in the real (Timeless) world it is meaningless."
"All that Calvinist question — Free-Will and Predestination, is to my mind undiscussable, insoluble. Of course (say us) if a man repents God will accept him. Ah yes, (say they) but the fact of his repenting shows that God has already moved him to do so. This at any rate leaves us with the fact that in any concrete case the question never arrives as a practical one. But I suspect it is really a meaningless question. The difference between Freedom and Necessity is fairly clear on the bodily level: we know the difference between making our teeth chatter on purpose and just finding them chattering with cold. It begins to be less clear when we talk of human love (leaving out the erotic kind). ‘Do I like him because I choose or because I must?’ — there are cases where this has an answer, but others where it seems to me to mean nothing. When we carry it up to relations between God and Man, has the distinction perhaps become nonsensical? After all, when we are most free, it is only with a freedom God has given us: and when our will is most influenced by Grace, it is still our will. And if what our will does is not ‘voluntary’, and if ‘voluntary’ does not mean ‘free’, what are we talking about? I’d leave it all alone."
- C S Lewis
"All that Calvinist question — Free-Will and Predestination, is to my mind undiscussable, insoluble. Of course (say us) if a man repents God will accept him. Ah yes, (say they) but the fact of his repenting shows that God has already moved him to do so. This at any rate leaves us with the fact that in any concrete case the question never arrives as a practical one. But I suspect it is really a meaningless question. The difference between Freedom and Necessity is fairly clear on the bodily level: we know the difference between making our teeth chatter on purpose and just finding them chattering with cold. It begins to be less clear when we talk of human love (leaving out the erotic kind). ‘Do I like him because I choose or because I must?’ — there are cases where this has an answer, but others where it seems to me to mean nothing. When we carry it up to relations between God and Man, has the distinction perhaps become nonsensical? After all, when we are most free, it is only with a freedom God has given us: and when our will is most influenced by Grace, it is still our will. And if what our will does is not ‘voluntary’, and if ‘voluntary’ does not mean ‘free’, what are we talking about? I’d leave it all alone."
- C S Lewis
Hi Kaylagrl,
Another good topic you have started. I like listening to Ravi, he has some very good things to say especially on philosophical thought.
So the title of the topic is free will. It would be interesting for you to let us know exactly what that means? I would say our nature dictates our wills and in that sense is free to choose. Let's look at it another way if our nature does not dictate our will then we can choose to do Holy things, pleasing to God without being regenerate. However, we know that this is not true as no one is righteous unless in Christ and our works while unregenerate are as filthy rags.
The dead man will only do dead works. His will is free yet it will not do anything that is not in our nature to do, contrary to a dear old aunt saying that it was not in her nephew's nature to commit that crime...I can't understand it, she would exclaim. Anyone who knows the bible will be able to say...Yes, it is in his nature to do so. In other words, the free choices we make are always determined by our nature..who we are. We are either in darkness or light.
When we refer to free will we refer to the moral will, no one is morally pleasing to God...and can never be unless God renews their heart. Darkness will never choose light, because of its nature, God renews the heart and mind so that you can see the light with new eyes. You see we are not robots, but the bible describes us as slaves, we are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ..there is no middle position.
There is no such thing as human autonomous free will!
Another good topic you have started. I like listening to Ravi, he has some very good things to say especially on philosophical thought.
So the title of the topic is free will. It would be interesting for you to let us know exactly what that means? I would say our nature dictates our wills and in that sense is free to choose. Let's look at it another way if our nature does not dictate our will then we can choose to do Holy things, pleasing to God without being regenerate. However, we know that this is not true as no one is righteous unless in Christ and our works while unregenerate are as filthy rags.
The dead man will only do dead works. His will is free yet it will not do anything that is not in our nature to do, contrary to a dear old aunt saying that it was not in her nephew's nature to commit that crime...I can't understand it, she would exclaim. Anyone who knows the bible will be able to say...Yes, it is in his nature to do so. In other words, the free choices we make are always determined by our nature..who we are. We are either in darkness or light.
When we refer to free will we refer to the moral will, no one is morally pleasing to God...and can never be unless God renews their heart. Darkness will never choose light, because of its nature, God renews the heart and mind so that you can see the light with new eyes. You see we are not robots, but the bible describes us as slaves, we are either slaves to sin or slaves to Christ..there is no middle position.
There is no such thing as human autonomous free will!
Last edited:
F
FreeNChrist
Guest
My favorite Ravi quote.....
"To give truth to one who does not love truth is to only give them more ammunition for misunderstanding."
"To give truth to one who does not love truth is to only give them more ammunition for misunderstanding."
N
NoNameMcgee
Guest
i believe in free will and divine intervention
i can choose sin
free will
i can overcome and resist temptation
Holy spirit
i think what dictates this is a new heart for those who seek God, put their faith in Jesus and recieve the Holy spirit which makes your heart new?
and i also think were all called to seek him through our lives
and our free will can harden our hearts
close our eyes
shut our ears to this call
maybe i butchered that, too much feelin's
not enough scripture
kinda just talking off the top here
please dont let my opinion cause a stumbling block or divison here
(._.')
i can choose sin
free will
i can overcome and resist temptation
Holy spirit
i think what dictates this is a new heart for those who seek God, put their faith in Jesus and recieve the Holy spirit which makes your heart new?
and i also think were all called to seek him through our lives
and our free will can harden our hearts
close our eyes
shut our ears to this call
maybe i butchered that, too much feelin's
not enough scripture
kinda just talking off the top here
please dont let my opinion cause a stumbling block or divison here
(._.')
Wonder why Jesus said "No one can come to me unless it has been granted by the Father" instead of "No one may come to Me unless it has been granted by the Father?"
Because no one has the ability, that's why. "No one can" = incapable. Most of us grew up and found out that there is a difference between "can" and "may."
Scripture attests time and again we don't have the ability, and it isn't via choice. And, of course that would mean God isn't fair, so, gotta find a proof text to neutralize all of that.
Well first Gods draws all people and second people come to Jesus by hearing the Word.
Well, you're talking about ones will post-conversion. I believe people are talking about pre-conversion will, in which no one is free in their wills by any means; John 8:35. And no man is saved via human decision; John 1:13; Romans 9:16; 1 Peter 1:1ff.
John 6:45New International Version (NIV)
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 12:32New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 12:32New International Version (NIV)
32 And I, when I am lifted up[a] from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”
No, sorry. Matthew 11:25-30. God doesn't fit into men's finite concept of fairness. Many have never heard and have died lost.
Actually, faith comes by hearing. I'm fairly certain that if you are like many, you believe faith is innate, contrary to Romans 10:17 and other Scriptures.
Why would they need the Word when God already brought every single person who has ever lived to Himself already? (my question is rhetorical, it doesn't need answered, I am not asking you for information) The drawing implies that salvation will occur. It isn't referring to an opportunity to cast the deciding vote.
Hi Lynn,How can a person have free choice without God giving them free will? To choose means I will one thing to happen or not.
N
NoNameMcgee
Guest
N
NoNameMcgee
Guest
wish i remembered that day better though
i remember crying like a child for the first time in who knows how long
and telling every family member i could get ahold of
no one seemed as effected as i was in that moment
(that God is real and Jesus is truth)
i remember crying like a child for the first time in who knows how long
and telling every family member i could get ahold of
no one seemed as effected as i was in that moment
(that God is real and Jesus is truth)
Last edited by a moderator:
Hi Phil,
Romans 1:18-25
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
~
Mankind knows the truth and suppress it with their unrighteous deeds. God has made Himself evident to all and He constantly shows us in the old and the new that their free will to choose life or not.
In their knowledge of God they by their own free will chose not to acknowledge Him as God, they neither gave Him thanks nor Honored Him as God. Instead they became futile in their thinking and began to worship creatures that God made instead of God Himself.
So mankind knows truth, they know God and yet they of their own free will, they choose to exchange the truth for a lie and live their lives without Him, finding other ways to worship. If they don't worship and serve God, the only other alternative is to worship creation.
So in the final analysis, they are without excuse and they willingly choose to come under God's wrath.
Im just commanded to preach truth no matter if its hard to swallow. Romans 9:16 is just another verse you twist to fit your beliefs.
Its speaking of salvation. Meaning no one could of saved themselves without the mercy of God to send his one and only son to die so that everyone may have the chance to be saved.
Obviously not everyone will be saved. Why? Because they denied the grace that God wants to give everyone.
It's simple stop corrupting truth and open your eyes.
Don't fret it, perhaps they will be saved. Remember; “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.” Matthew 6:4.