Not By Works

[Ariel82]

Judas Iscariot was NEVER saved. He stole money from the poor and never had faith in Jesus. He just wanted power, money and fame.

Many folks claiming to be Christian are the same. They were never saved and just wanted the money, power and game...even some preachers fit this "never been saved" category but they get a new one "false teachers" and "wolves in sheep clothing"

Hmmm still nothing in response to my signature...will keep reading..

 

[Grace777x70]

If people are relying on their own righteousness - they are in big trouble - just as Ezekiel 18:26 shows. The Law of Moses is all based on people doing their own righteousness of deeds in order to be righteous.

Christ is our righteousness. He gives us the gift of His righteousness. Get this backward and we create a humanistic religion of self-works and self-righteousness which actually denies the work of Christ in our lives.

Romans 10:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

The law is the belief system of doing in order to achieve - in this case trying to achieve righteousness by what we do or don't do.. This is why we don't live by the law of Moses but by the work of Christ only.

Awake to righteousness and sin not. Awake to who we are in Christ. That we are the righteousness of God in Christ. Behold the work and person of Christ in us. 2 Cor. 5:17

 

[gb9]

As you've posted them, both scenarios are right.

It's much more complicated than what you posted. SO, if I had to pick one,
it would be the first.

For the reason I've been saying all along:
JUSTIFICATION IS OF GOD. We cannot save ourselves. There is no way. This would be salvation by works. The Mosaic Law. No can do.

SANCTIFICATION IS A COMBINED EFFORT BETWEEN GOD AND MAN.

I think the big problem is that some do not understand correctly that sanctification is like doing the tango. It takes two.

then you pick wrong. John 3, whole chapter, Titus whole letter, most of Romans, I could go on, but you get the point. or you ignore truth.

 

[FranC]

Oh that's is simple.

1. Faith in Jesus (his redeeming work on the cross and resurrection) being sealed by the Holy spirit
2. Faith in Jesus, learning to walk with the Holy Spirit
3. Yes because God picks you up when you fall. If He begins a good work in you He is powerful enough to finish it.

Ariel,

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Disagree. We don't lose salvation because we fall. I fall every day. But what happens if a person stops believing and having faith? Have you never seen this happen?

 

[Ariel82]

sorry if that wasnt the correct way to answer that

(also when i say,still sin i dont mean every sin)
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Did you notice that both are still in the kingdom?

Having correct doctrines on every part of the Bible doesn't save. Only Faith in Jesus alone saves.

If your foundation is Christ, your works will be tested by fire but like my signature says...even hay and stubble house will burn down around the person but God will save them from the fire IF THEIR FOUNDATION IS CHRIST JESUS.

 

[FranC]

i believe no matter what you proclaim
if you die a sinful person

youre hell bound

dunno what list that puts me on

(._.')

Hi NNM,

Actually we all sin, don't we?

So what keeps us saved is our desire to be close to God and believe in His Son Jesus.
Your life has changed and so I'm more than sure that you are in this Group.
We're discussing doctrine here. I believe we're all saved people.
I like how you show the love of God. The Holy Spirit is truly with you.

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel,

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Disagree. We don't lose salvation because we fall. I fall every day. But what happens if a person stops believing and having faith? Have you never seen this happen?

3. Nope...mostly I see people have a faith in an idol Jesus and not the real Jesus. Then they "fall away" because he isn't the genie to grant all wishes they thought was promised by the Bible or their WOF FALSE teachers and that God "owed" them something.

Also most don't have the seal of the Holy Spirit saying they are Children of God. Nor do they have a deep prayer life or personal relationship with God. Nor do they read their bible for themselves. They lived on throw up sermons with maybe one verse a week and starved their souls to death.

 

[FranC]

It's split. I have seen. Churches preach synergism and that varies across denominations.
.I know Wesley and Methodist have been accused of it, but from my own experience and reading of wesley's sermons he was vehemently against people who preached works salvation. Especially if they claimed to be Methodist.

Many here think I'm Catholic.
So I'll say that I went to a Weslyan Church for about 10 years or more.
And you're right...

 

[PeterJens]

I agree and it comes from having a distorted view of the gospel and from bad teaching such as IMO - this whole lose your salvation doctrine which to me is a complete denial of the work of Christ on the cross and resurrection.

lose of salvation assumes we truly inherit the promise in this life.
I think we have communion with God and His word dwells in our hearts.
It is obvious a lot of people have words but no reality or life.

If the life is real, like a marriage, it needs to last to prove the loyalty is real
and not just fair weather.

Jesus points out the many different types of followers and reasons why they fall away.
1. The word never is understood
2. The word does not take deep root, it dies when difficulties come
3. The word falling on thorns, the worries of life smother the message
4. The word falling on good soil, with understanding and producing much fruit.

As far as we are concerned 2 to 4 were all saved, yet in truth it was pointless.

Now at what point is someone really saved.
Only when testing has come and fruit is produced in their lives.

Or they are all saved, but loose it early on. It is slightly academic because the
effect and reality is the same.

But in truth the real motivation for the emphasis on being saved, is saying struggles
and failure do not disqualify you. But the truth is if you cannot walk in the ways of
Christ, how can you claim to know Him and be part of the eternal Kingdom where His
will is King?

I still wonder where the point of failure is drawn when most of the people talking about
failure are hyper legalist, who condemn themselves for natural human reactions to situations.
If you want and idea of God grace, look at the life of David and Samson.
These were flawed characters like us, yet God walked with them and blessed them greatly.

The Lord has always been more concerned at working with people where they are rather
than creating false perfect groups which are artificial and dishonest.
Love really does work and is real, and you can trust Christ to bring you through.

 

[Ariel82]

Many here think I'm Catholic.
So I'll say that I went to a Weslyan Church for about 10 years or more.
And you're right...

Nice
I attend a Methodist one for about 7 years and have been reading Wesley's sermons for the past year or so.

Heading to the school catch y'all later.

 

[FranC]

Yeah....faith is a gift from God. He is powerful enough to change our hearts and minds and keep us. When we are faithless, He is still faithful.

2 Timothy 2:13 ►
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.

New Living Translation
If we are unfaithful, he remains faithful, for he cannot deny who he is.

English Standard Version
if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

Berean Study Bible
if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Berean Literal Bible
if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He is not able to deny Himself.

New American Standard Bible
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

King James Bible
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Oh my gosh,

2 Timothy 2:13 has to be one of the most misunderstood verses in the N.T.

Look at 2 Timothy 2:12?

If we deny Him, He will deny us.
Then in verse 13 it says that if we're unfaithful, He remains faithful.

Doesn't it seem like a contradiction to you?
Yet God is not a maker of confusion.

So, obviously, verse 13 must mean something else.

Don't take my word for it, you could look it up, but it mean that We could be unfaithful to God, but HE cannot be unfaithful to HIMSELF.

Even if we lose faith in HIM, HE will continue his salvific work in those who wish to have faith and be saved. He will do what He promised in the beginning in the book of Genesis 3:15

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Hi NNM,

Actually we all sin, don't we?

So what keeps us saved is our desire to be close to God and believe in His Son Jesus.
Your life has changed and so I'm more than sure that you are in this Group.
We're discussing doctrine here. I believe we're all saved people.
I like how you show the love of God. The Holy Spirit is truly with you.

Job 1

1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

given all have sinned
he wasnt always perfect but became as such through God

and was able to resist Satan

john the baptist

noah

david for a time

i may sin now (i wont lie)

but given what has been done in me already through the works of the Holy spirit not myself

its not a stretch to say i will stop sinning to never sin again

once this is done in me

having no log or spec in my eye

i hope to be used by God to preach his word

and if i were to sin
id be in need of repentance before i could continue


(only possible with a constant dependance on Jesus and the word, also doesnt earn salvation)

 

[FranC]

Yes but doesn't God tell you?

How is that not appropriate?

God tells me he loves me everyday. I pray and He answers.

Isn't that what it means to be a BORN again child of God?

How God answers differs from time to time...be it dreams, words of wisdom from other believers, the world, a small voice in my heart, change in circumstances, miracles, etc.

God always answers my prayers, but I don't always see it at the time. Sometimes the answer is 'No, I have a better plan for your life."

Ditto for me Ariel.
I met Jesus when I was about 27 years old.
I know Him like I know my best friends --- maybe more.
Our Language or doctrinal beliefs might be a little different,
but we're sisters in the Lord.

 

[FranC]

I believe scripture proves to be the complete opposite of this in the sense that it seems you are trying to make it out to be. Many have written about this from different angles. I will post what I believe the scriptures say again about this.

True biblical belief is of the heart - not in the head or mind. God looks on the heart - man look on the outward appearance. We can get our thinking messed up but our spirits are safe with the Lord for He has said that He will never leave us nor forsake us.

He said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever. John 14:16

Getting "saved" is simple and it is not cheap - it cost our Lord His life and the shedding of His blood to obtain an eternal redemption for us. Heb 9:12


Romans 10:9-10 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The process is simple too.

1) we hear the message of Christ - the gospel of our salvation in Him

2) we believe the message from our hearts

3) we were sealed with the Holy Spirit

( Jesus said in John 14:16 that the Holy Spirit will be with us and in us forever - now was Jesus lying or is he like a "bait and switch" car salesman that has "fine print" which He doesn't talk about )

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, = 1)

the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, = 2) you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, = 3)


you were sealed = aorist indicative tense / passive voice = a one time event in the past that remains as true.

Passive voice = the sealing was not done by us but by an outside force - the Holy Spirit Himself.

I agree.

Except I believe salvation can be lost.
I must go now. I'm more than sure you would know all the scripture I'd post.
I do think this is very important because it might lead some astray that are not strong in the Lord.

Later.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

As you've posted them, both scenarios are right.

It's much more complicated than what you posted. SO, if I had to pick one,
it would be the first.

For the reason I've been saying all along:
JUSTIFICATION IS OF GOD. We cannot save ourselves. There is no way. This would be salvation by works. The Mosaic Law. No can do.

SANCTIFICATION IS A COMBINED EFFORT BETWEEN GOD AND MAN.

I think the big problem is that some do not understand correctly that sanctification is like doing the tango. It takes two.

I think the big problem is, as said before, That people do not understand what sanctification is, and what justification is.

Salvation is based on justification alone. If salvation can be lost. Then justification must be earned, period

Rewards, blessing, Chsastening, Lack of being blessed, and having rewards burned are a result of sanctification.

If I am justified, I have eternal life. And nothing can take that away from me.. If salvation can be lost. Then salvation is based on sanctification,. NOT justification. And is of works. Not grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree.

Except I believe salvation can be lost.
I must go now. I'm more than sure you would know all the scripture I'd post.
I do think this is very important because it might lead some astray that are not strong in the Lord.

Later.

Then you believe salvation must be earned, And is a reward, not a grace gift.

That's probably why people think you are catholic. You hold to their version of justification by works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ariel,

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Disagree. We don't lose salvation because we fall. I fall every day. But what happens if a person stops believing and having faith? Have you never seen this happen?

I am confused.

Ariel said that if God begins a good work in you, he will finish it, because he is powerful enough.

And you disagreed?

Scrtipture. Says, He who began (past tense) A good work in you WILL COMPLETE it until the day of Christ. It does not say he may complete it, It does not say it is up to you if he completes it (like we can stop him) it says he will complete it.. It is a non conditional prom,use made by God himself. He will complete it..

Do we trust him to keep his word or not? Thats the issue.

 

[PennEd]

Ariel,

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Disagree. We don't lose salvation because we fall. I fall every day. But what happens if a person stops believing and having faith? Have you never seen this happen?

I don't understand how this is possible. God gave you the faith. You believed. You accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. The Holy Spirit SEALED you with His Presence.
God would have to take back the faith He gave you. YOU can't give it back. You are SEALED. You are a part of the body of Christ. He cannot deny Himself.
There ARE those that have confessed Jesus, but haven't believed in their heart. And there are those that believed Jesus rose from the dead, but never confessed with their mouth.

THOSE are the people that can be lost.

 

[FranC]

i believe all of us deserve hell for our sins
God is righteous

and by his mercy he sent Jesus to pay the price for our sin

i believe he calls all of us and reveals himself one way or another to accept and follow Jesus

those who dont reject but seek him there after
the seed of faith that is planted in them will grow into a sapling then a tree

and as a tree if hes what produced your growth then
your fruit is good, you are saved

if your fruit is bad
you grew in the world or flesh or by satan
which is your fault not his

sometimes i feel my fruit is just too young and not yet good to eat still maturing

which is why i may sin or miss the mark

but i fully expect to sin no more and be able to overcome it through Jesus who strengthens me (and makes ALL things possible)

and if i end up falling away

i was decieved by false spirits and was never saved to begin with



that being said

i am still capable of sinning

but the a follower of Jesus obeys
and i will confess and repent of my sins get up and continue to follow him rather than justify myself cover my sin or continue to live in it

Why should you end up falling away?

IT'S UP TO YOU to stay close to Jesus.
Even if you sin, He still loves you. You're covered by the blood of Jesus and you're safe in His arms.

You just have to WANT to stay there.
It's up to your free will. Just stay there.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Why should you end up falling away?

IT'S UP TO YOU to stay close to Jesus.
Even if you sin, He still loves you. You're covered by the blood of Jesus and you're safe in His arms.

You just have to WANT to stay there.
It's up to your free will. Just stay there.

im using hypothetical

IF it came to pass i fell away?



1 John 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.