Lets Talk Free Choice

[valiant]

"The discussion often proceeds as if God is bound by time, as we are. But He is the creator of time and as such is not constrained by it.

Wait for it. He will know exactly how God sees time, and it will be logically impossible.

We speak of foreknowledge, as if it is prior knowledge from God’s point of view, as it is from ours

He speaks not of foreknowledge (pro-oida - knowing about beforehand) but of proginosko (to enter into relationship with before hand). So Jeff Doles goes wrong before he starts

When we talk about time and God we do not know what we are talking about.

. But for God, it is simply knowledge with no “before” or “after” about it.

It is not simply 'knowledge about', it is to enter into relationship with before hand. If God has no before or after, how could He use pro- to describe it.? He would be deceiving us.

He can know something as it happens — and it all happens for Him in one moment — without that knowledge being the cause of it happening.

but if before time began He knew something happened, does it happen outside His will?. He wills it to happen or He would stop it. Or is Jeff suggesting He knew about it but could do nothing about it?.

You see what tangles we get into when we try to predicate anything of God?

Knowledge does not equal causality.

In God's case knowledge DOES equal causality. What He knows He wills.

For example, if you and I were sitting together and you turned to me and said something, I would know what you were saying as you were saying it. But my knowledge of you saying it would not be the cause of you saying it.

You and I are not God. He does not gain new knowledge. He certainly knew all things BEFORE the world began. Or are we just a permanent thought in God's mind.

"You would be free to say it or not. Likewise, God’s “foreknowledge” (which to Him is simply knowledge) of what we do, say, think or believe does not require that He be the cause of it.

God's foreknowledge is NOT just knowing about beforehand. That would be prooida. It is His entering into relationship with beforehand.

In His sovereignty God has, for whatever reason, chosen to give us free will.

And just forgot to mention it? Our wills are not free, but biased and prejudiced.

That is a grace.

It is a lie. Adam while 'perfect' may have had free will, but he soon built up prejudices, customs, ideas which militate against free will. No man since Adam has.

And if He has chosen to influence our will by a further grace to turn to Him, it is still, as Lewis says, our will that does so.

Many an atheist would disagree with you. He would say it is not his will. And His grace does not depend on our agreeing. If it did we would have disagreed. What then? Lewis is too clever for his own good.

If we treat the will as anything other than voluntary and free to do or not do otherwise, then we are really not talking about will but determinism.

We may exercise our will 'freely', but we do it with our prejudices, biases, customs, etc. It is not free at all. It is according to our predisposition.

After years of batting the question around I have found no significance to it. With Lewis, I suspect it really is a meaningless question, and agree that perhaps the distinction it makes really is nonsensical after all."

If you mean the question of 'free' will I agree with you. It has no significance and is meaningless.

 

[kaylagrl]

They would not come because they could not come due to their hearts. Those who love God have been born of Him.[1 John 4:7]

Unregenerate ppl don't go around trying to find a door to get to God. They run from Him, not seeking fellowship with Him.

Consider this... I have a German Shepard pup,she is 9 months old and she is in schooling. Right now she is learning the basic commands. One of them of course is "come"! When I say come I dont mean stay,sit or down,I mean Come! Now if I said to my husband,"stand on her leash" and I command her to COME! what kind of person am I? She knows the command,she wants to do right and respond but I have made it impossible for her to respond. Does that make sense? Jesus said "come unto me". How is that command fair if we cannot come?!

​People want my definition of free will,free choice? There it is in the scenario above.The Holy Spirit draws us,God has given us the choice to respond and to obey. If we do not have the free choice to obey then God is like me with my dog,cruel. Im telling my dog COME,she knows the command,she wants to respond,shes pulling at her leash but the joke is on her because my hubby is standing on the lead so she cannot respond. Thats it.No big theological terms. Sorry to let you down.The Bible says the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand. And its that simple.The Spirit draws,the sinner responds,he is given free choice to accept or walk away. Otherwise God is nothing more than a cruel liar standing on the leash as He commands us to come,believe,receive.And I dont care what you call it or who came up with it,I dont believe in that type of God. And the Bible doesn't show it.

 

[Stephen63]

[video=youtube_share;-lEYdmJEAFM]http://youtu.be/-lEYdmJEAFM[/video]


Ravi Zacharias Is Roman Catholicism a cult?


Perhaps you many understand clearly now magenta


It is sufficiently clear to me that Ravi is an ecumenist, after the mold of Billy Graham, as he dare not speak the plain truth when it comes to the roman catholic church.Even when he says people stay in a group (for e.g. the roman catholics) to change it from within, which may be so, he is afraid to point out the fact that such an arrangement is unbiblical.

The bible clearly says that after the second admonition, the heretic is to be rejected. The bible further reveals in the Book of Revelation that God Himself personally wants all His people to come out of the spiritual harlot which is the roman catholic church. In addition the bible clearly teaches that the believer has no part with an infidel ( and as such also a heretic) and is to be separated from them.Please don't tell me that Ravi, being a well known international apologist for the gospel, may not know these verses.

If it is so, he has no business being a preacher and apologist for the gospel as he is misleading others to think they can do whatever they like (such as staying in the roman catholic church to change it from within) when the bible teaches otherwise.And if he knows these verses and this very specific teaching of the bible to the believer to have no part with the infidel and the heretic, and he doesn't want to share this teaching, then he has absolutely no business being a preacher of God's word

There is no political correctness in the word of God, only divine truth, and if Ravi thinks he has to be politically correct like Billy Graham, then he is in the wrong business. Jesus and His Apostles spoke God's truth as it is and so did the Old Testament prophets of God at risk of losing their own lives.

If a supposed preacher of God's word (such as Ravi Zacharias, Billy Graham, Franklin Graham and others) is afraid to tell the heretics (e.g. the roman catholics) that they are heretics traveling on the broad road to eternal damnation, how can they be saved? Their blood is surely on the hands of such false preachers.

Shalom

"we cannot paint everyone with the same brush" is one of his statements in the video.

The Bible is the one brush that paints everyone & designates whether we be christian or sinner, & how to become & remain a christian.

If we can't paint everyone with this same brush, then what do we use?

"They" have but one answer.....ecumenicism/universal salvation.

You're on the right track there, vic.

 

[trofimus]

Consider this... I have a German Shepard pup,she is 9 months old and she is in schooling. Right now she is learning the basic commands. One of them of course is "come"! When I say come I dont mean stay,sit or down,I mean Come! Now if I said to my husband,"stand on her leash" and I command her to COME! what kind of person am I? She knows the command,she wants to do right and respond but I have made it impossible for her to respond. Does that make sense? Jesus said "come unto me". How is that command fair if we cannot come?!

​People want my definition of free will,free choice? There it is in the scenario above.

I am afraid your scenario is wrong. Because it is not about the free will at all. It is about external obstructions for already decided creature.

Like I decide I will fly go to the left but I cant because there is a wall.

You changed "free will" for "free action".

 

[kaylagrl]

"we cannot paint everyone with the same brush" is one of his statements in the video.

The Bible is the one brush that paints everyone & designates whether we be christian or sinner, & how to become & remain a christian.

If we can't paint everyone with this same brush, then what do we use?

"They" have but one answer.....ecumenicism/universal salvation.

You're on the right track there, vic.

Wrong thread.So far all his posts are about Catholics that I have seen. And this is not that thread.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I am afraid your scenario is wrong. Because it is not about the free will at all. It is about external obstructions for already decided creature.

Like I decide I will fly go to the left but I cant because there is a wall.

You changed "free will" for "free action".

So God controls your every action?

So when you miss the mark and sin are you saying God caused you to sin also.

Define temptation with absence of free will, please explain?

 

[Depleted]

Yeah, the whole space/time thingy throws a lot of folks off.

Hey. HEY! Thingy is my thingy. lol

 

[trofimus]

So God controls your every action?

So when you miss the mark and sin are you saying God caused you to sin also.

Define temptation with absence of free will, please explain?

I am not sure what you mean. I just said that the example scenario is not about free will, it is about free action. The dog already wills, but cant do what it wills.
So the scenario does not deal with the will.

 

[kaylagrl]

I am afraid your scenario is wrong. Because it is not about the free will at all. It is about external obstructions for already decided creature.

Like I decide I will fly go to the left but I cant because there is a wall.

You changed "free will" for "free action".

No,it is the same.You are saying people are pre-elected and the sinner cannot respond. That does not make sense. A wall,someone standing on the leash,either way prohibits you from moving or responding to the commands.

Again no one will answer my verses. If we are already chosen then why these verses in the Bible?


Josh. choose this day whom you will serve

But the choice was made, according to you I cannot choose.So why command it when I cannot respond?!

Rev.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in

Deut.

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life...

Romans

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord andbelieve in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Mark

And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”


Isaiah

“ Seek the Lord while he may be found;call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Prov.

Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord...


2 Tim.

Correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Luke

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!





None of these verses make sense if people have already been elected to heaven or hell.

 

[Stephen63]

Free choice.

Adam & Eve had one commandment, & they "chose" to break it.
Satan & 1/3 of the angels "chose" to rebel against God....in Heaven! Why was that allowed? I don't have all the answers, but there had to be at least two options simply to choose from, & Satan became the "other choice".

The end will come will come when the gospel is preached to the whole world. Why is that? Everybody has a choice to make, & without hearing the gospel, they can't make one. Gotta have at least two choices.

There's only two things we can't choose.....

• We can't have two masters.
• We must choose one or the other. there's no "third" option.

 

[Depleted]

Reformed is a much bigger subject that what we have discussed.The Reformation had many more people involved than just Calvin. As I found in my other thread "Reformed" is a big umbrella with various beliefs. To say one does not understand Reformed is hardly fair. If people read through my other thread Im sure there is no way they could nail down what Reformed believe. Its very complicated.

When one denies Reformed, says he will have nothing of it, and then tells lies about what it means to disprove choice, it becomes this discussion too. Lying about others beliefs is unfair.

 

[kaylagrl]

Yes! Ask Corrie Ten Boom!

​So whether good or evil,both are Gods will? Or what are you saying...

 

[trofimus]

No,it is the same.You are saying people are pre-elected and the sinner cannot respond. That does not make sense. A wall,someone standing on the leash,either way prohibits you from moving or responding to the commands.

Again no one will answer my verses. If we are already chosen then why these verses in the Bible?


Josh. choose this day whom you will serve

But the choice was made, according to you I cannot choose.So why command it when I cannot respond?!

Rev.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in

Deut.

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life...

Romans

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord andbelieve in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


Mark

And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”


Isaiah

“ Seek the Lord while he may be found;call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Prov.

Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the Lord...


2 Tim.

Correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Luke

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!





None of these verses make sense if people have already been elected to heaven or hell.

I am not saying that sinners cannot respond. We all are sinners. Also Christ said that many will respond joyfully etc but as time goes, they will fall away, because they do not have a root.

I do not know what response to the verses you want, I do not see they contradict what I write... or do you have an example?

 

[FreeNChrist]

I wonder if Jesus' will was free? "Not MY will, but your will be done".

 

[Depleted]

Consider this... I have a German Shepard pup,she is 9 months old and she is in schooling. Right now she is learning the basic commands. One of them of course is "come"! When I say come I dont mean stay,sit or down,I mean Come! Now if I said to my husband,"stand on her leash" and I command her to COME! what kind of person am I? She knows the command,she wants to do right and respond but I have made it impossible for her to respond. Does that make sense? Jesus said "come unto me". How is that command fair if we cannot come?!

​People want my definition of free will,free choice? There it is in the scenario above.The Holy Spirit draws us,God has given us the choice to respond and to obey. If we do not have the free choice to obey then God is like me with my dog,cruel. Im telling my dog COME,she knows the command,she wants to respond,shes pulling at her leash but the joke is on her because my hubby is standing on the lead so she cannot respond. Thats it.No big theological terms. Sorry to let you down.The Bible says the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand. And its that simple.The Spirit draws,the sinner responds,he is given free choice to accept or walk away. Otherwise God is nothing more than a cruel liar standing on the leash as He commands us to come,believe,receive.And I dont care what you call it or who came up with it,I dont believe in that type of God. And the Bible doesn't show it.

Consider this scenario. You don't take your puppy to school. You ask your puppy if she wants to go to school.

Why can't that dog decide? Yeesh! You've feed her, you play with her, you love her, and care of her, and yet why can she not decide if she goes to school?

Oh, and even if handed that choice, which way do you think your puppy is going for? Sleep most of the day, play some, eat as much as possible, lick up vomit, smell puppy poo... or learn obedience? No one is holding down her leash.

Hmmmm. Tough decision.

 

[Depleted]

​So whether good or evil,both are Gods will? Or what are you saying...

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. Rom. 8:28

All things! Including Hitler!

Same deal the Israelites got when God chose to put them in Egypt for 400 years. Think about that one for a minute. If you put the ages of both of your countries together does it equal 400 years? Can you imagine God making us slaves for 400 years? And yet, it was for their good and his glory.

He even told Abraham how long it would be before the Promise Land was ready -- 430 years.

 

[kaylagrl]

I am not saying that sinners cannot respond. We all are sinners. Also Christ said that many will respond joyfully etc but as time goes, they will fall away, because they do not have a root.

I do not know what response to the verses you want, I do not see they contradict what I write... or do you have an example?

The verses do not make sense if we are elect on already on our way to heaven.Whoever "we" are. If your choice has been taken away,and as said by the poster, above the sinner cant respond,then these verses make no sense. Do I need to go through each verse?

 

[samuel23]

You don't ask a dog if it wants to go to school.

 

[kaylagrl]

Consider this scenario. You don't take your puppy to school. You ask your puppy if she wants to go to school.

Why can't that dog decide? Yeesh! You've feed her, you play with her, you love her, and care of her, and yet why can she not decide if she goes to school?

Oh, and even if handed that choice, which way do you think your puppy is going for? Sleep most of the day, play some, eat as much as possible, lick up vomit, smell puppy poo... or learn obedience? No one is holding down her leash.

Hmmmm. Tough decision.

​No,its still not the same scenario because we are talking about the verses where Jesus says come,chose, believe to the sinner,those who are not elected. So my point is they cannot respond,according to Calvin. So again,the command to come is given and the dog cannot obey because the leash is holding her.

 

[trofimus]

The verses do not make sense if we are elect on already on our way to heaven.Whoever "we" are. If your choice has been taken away,and as said by the poster, above the sinner cant respond,then these verses make no sense. Do I need to go through each verse?

I have never said that our choice is taken away... are you sure you are talking to the right person?

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...ding-misconceptions-about-reformed-faith.html
- read the very first point