Lets Talk Free Choice

[Meggido]

No. Its the whole point.

God leads, God influences.

Thank you.

 

[trofimus]

who was talking Calvinism ....I thought we were talking about free will? If you want to talk Protestant reformation Luther, Calvin, or whatever start that thread and I'm sure you'll have a lot of participation. I surely will stick with the word of God rather than mans logic or his directives.......if only eve and Adam had stuck with Gods word rather than letting the serpent reform their thought......things would be much different

If you ask this way, just read the post about it.

 

[Depleted]

And you have your theories and your views. So lets leave that out of it.

Election does cancel choice. How can it not? You were created with either heaven in mind or hell. God either created you to go to a nice comfy heaven or you were created to be destroyed. Thats not choice and you keep saying it is!

Here is your choice. Bacon or chocolate?

Did you choose one? Good.

Did it ever dawn on you you had other choices? If it did, I bet it was chocolate covered bacon, or something you really like.

Were you aware you could have chosen coffee? No? Well, okay. Did I just stomp on your choices just because it never dawned on you that you could have chosen coffee?

Here. Have some coffee! It's yours even if you didn't choose it.

Did I stomp on your choices again?

Meh! I didn't really, nor did you choose coffee until I gave it to you.

And now you get to choose if you want that coffee. (I sure hope I picked your favorite beverage, because God gives us our favorite thing. We just didn't know it was our favorite thing until he gave it to us.)

 

[trofimus]

Ha! Speak for yourself. I have walked. And God has pulled me home again.

(I am Jonah.)

Or... you got a new heart after that?

 

[Depleted]

who was talking Calvinism ....I thought we were talking about free will? If you want to talk Protestant reformation Luther, Calvin, or whatever start that thread and I'm sure you'll have a lot of participation. I surely will stick with the word of God rather than mans logic or his directives.......if only eve and Adam had stuck with Gods word rather than letting the serpent reform their thought......things would be much different

LOL

I just stopped being the slowest student on earth. Thank you!

 

[Meggido]

I see that's where you keep getting stuck. I don't know why. My entire blood family is lost as of this moment. Does that mean I don't pray for them because God already knows if they are elected? No way! I'm praying hard for them. Does that mean I don't tell them about God because he already decided? No, actually, I try hard to tell them, but they shut me down. Does that mean they are the unelected? No, because I'm not God's only witness and this is all up to God. If he elects them, they will here. I don't know if they are, but I've been pleading their cases for 45 years now. I've even taken to asking others to pray for my Dad, because mentally, he cannot hear anymore. Well, he can, but Alzheimer, so he can't remember the first half of a sentence before anyone says the second half, so mentally he's gone.

Does that mean God didn't elect him? Maybe, but God can still reach him now, so maybe not.

With all my heart, I want God to save them. I want God to save everyone. And I know we're to witness for God, and I'm doing that. I just know, he won't save all. And he still hasn't given anyone the list of the elected, so we're still "stuck" with loving others. What greater love can we give someone but to pray that God saves them? We just don't know if he will. and whether you are a TULIPer or not you still know God does not save everyone.

How is this different from what you believe in this department? And what does that have to do with free will or choice? Of course we want our families and loved ones to be saved. We want everybody to be saved.

45 years now, and haven't given up yet. Are we any different?

We are not saying a sinner cannot cry out for God's mercy! God is not stepping on the leash!

We are saying a sinner will only cry out for God's mercy because God gave him/her that! Sinners leashless and not getting up without God's prompting. But, when God prompts? Still no leash required. We come willingly.


Lord, please give our loved ones your prompt. Amen!

What if God does not love your family?

 

[kaylagrl]

Tiny little problem the non-Calvinist keep not noticing. No leash!!!

Not only are all the dogs/people free to roam wherever they want, they are roaming wherever they want.

Every single one is getting exactly what they want... for now.

The only moment that changes is on Judgment Day. Then the ones God didn't choose realize they should have wanted to be chosen. They didn't. They wanted to lick vomit and sniff poo. And that's what they get. Their choice for eternity!

(Thank the Lord that he gave us his choice instead.)

But the issue still is you are told what your choice is or are you allowed to make the choice?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

We only have to choices: we either believe in the only begotten Son of God or we don't. No other choices do we have and it takes our will/minds to make the choice.

The way I see it - faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God. Does hearing the word of God open our eyes, open our understanding to the point where we either trust it or do not trust it? (Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God. Rom. 10:17; In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. Eph. 1:13)

The whole point though - who is it that has to trust/believe? Is it already predestined who will trust/believe? or is the thing predestined thewhole plan of salvation?

I don't know but my Bible says "whosoever believes" not "whosoever is elected" . . . . My Bible also says that God wants all men to be saved . . . . And as far as God changing us to do his will - Wonder why we are told to renew our minds? to put off the old man and to put on the new man? If we have nothing to do with this relationship thingy -then we don't even need to repent because hey, your either in or your out! And isn't there such a thing as resisting the holy Spirit?

 

[Desertsrose]

We are not saying a sinner cannot cry out for God's mercy! God is not stepping on the leash!

Hi Lynn,

Maybe this is where the different beliefs within reformed theology takes place. Those I know that are in the reformed belief will say that man is so dead in his sin, he can't even respond to God. He has to be regenerated first.

In other words the one who can cry out to God for mercy is the one that's already been born again. For these reformed believers God is stepping on the leash.

Maybe that's not how far you go with reformed teaching, but for many of them, this is what they're saying.

One of the saddest things in reformed theology that I've come across are those who don't know if they're one of the chosen ones or not. I've asked some and they say they don't know if they are chosen.

 

[Depleted]

Quote " We just don't know if he will. "

We can know and He does will! The invitation is there and waiting for a response.We can know we are saved and on our way to heaven.

Of course we know we are saved. Not only did we get the invite to the wedding feast, we were gathered to go and given the proper attire. (Matt. 22:1-14)

He invited everyone. He didn't gather everyone because those he invited didn't choose to come! He gathered and clothed those whom he chose -- the beggars.

 

[Depleted]

Oh I am hearing you just fine sister. Maybe you are not as elected as you think and are more into covenant theology.

Cool, since you're hearing me just fine, then no big thing to tell what you're hearing me say. Please do.

 

[Depleted]

Stop throwing rocks. My salvation and my 2- way relationship w/Father is just fine thank you.

The chains of religious uncertainty left me when I stopped thinking I was or was not elected.

I am not agaisnt you Lynn. calm down

Who's throwing rocks? Somehow you believe something changed when you left reformed theology. What changed? (Same question, asked differently.)

BTW, just so you know, if I throw rocks at you, feel completely safe from rocks. It's the people behind me that should be worried. I can't throw to save my own life. lol

 

[Depleted]

What if God does not love your family?

I can tell you it is highly unlikely he elected Mom. She already died, and the last time I talked to her she thought the Catholic Church saved her. It is possible he reached her after that, but as far as I know, when I go to God Mom won't be there.

It breaks my heart, but I am interested in seeing how there is no more tears and sorrow in heaven. I can't see me not crying if my whole family isn't there too.

I do trust God though, so we will see how that works out.

Are all the ones who have already died in your family in heaven? If not, what about God not loving them? I don't get the question, really.

 

[Depleted]

But the issue still is you are told what your choice is or are you allowed to make the choice?

Really? When were you told what your choice is? God doesn't audibly talk to me. He just kind of shows me stuff.

As for my choice? I trust Jesus wasn't lying when he said everyone chooses to hide in the darkness. I remember that darkness. It was very effective in hiding what I was doing. Everything changed when the light switch went Dink. I certainly didn't turn that light switch on. Foils the whole hiding in darkness thing. The light is God. He carried it out, just like Jesus said he would.

Suddenly, I like light. Go figure.

 

[tourist]

I can tell you it is highly unlikely he elected Mom. She already died, and the last time I talked to her she thought the Catholic Church saved her. It is possible he reached her after that, but as far as I know, when I go to God Mom won't be there.

It breaks my heart, but I am interested in seeing how there is no more tears and sorrow in heaven. I can't see me not crying if my whole family isn't there too.

I do trust God though, so we will see how that works out.

Are all the ones who have already died in your family in heaven? If not, what about God not loving them? I don't get the question, really.

I have said a prayer for your mom to be in heaven. God hears and answers all prayers and heard this prayer even before He created the universe. It does say that there will be no more sorrow or tears in the next life. Well, it would be very sorrowful and tearful indeed if our loved ones are not there with us. Now, God could simply wipe our memories of those that didn't make it but to me that seems like lying and is in conflict with there no longer being sorrow or tears. Your mom will be there waiting for you. Probably cook you something special too. Mothers do things like that.

 

[Desertsrose]

I view this quite differently.

God gave the people who rejected His Grace the opportunity to see for themselves that they COULDN'T choose by their free will and their strength and understanding to be Blessed and not Cursed.

But they wouldn't see it. They couldn't.

So God decided that the choice wouldn't be left up to people that can't inately do it. God decided He Would intercede on peoples behalf.

Ezekiel 36:24-27
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Hi Grandpa,

And I view this quite differently.

Actually some of them did heed God's warning, but only a remnant. They all were punished and those who were not killed by Neb's army were banished to Babylon. But God had those who were faithful to Him (a remnant) and He put a mark on their forehead so they wouldn't be killed with the others.

Ezekiel 36 is talking about the new birth. For the Jews as a nation, they will see Him whom they have pierced and will grieve as for a lost son. But that's all for another topic of discussion.

What He promises Israel being future is what we have now. We believe by faith. He washes us clean and gives us a new heart and fills us with His Spirit. Hallelujah! But it's still by faith we believe on the Lord and we say yes or we say no to His free offer of mercy and grace to believe in His Son to whosoever will.

 

[trofimus]

As nobody provided some consistent definition of freedom and will, what about this one?

"Aristotle has already observed that there are two things in freedom, to wit, spontaneity and choice, and therein lies our mastery over our actions.

When we act freely we are not being forced, as would happen if we were pushed on to a precipice and thrown from top to bottom;
and we are not prevented from having the mind free when we deliberate, as would happen if we were given a draught to deprive us of discernment.

There is contingency in a thousand actions of Nature; but when there is no judgement in him who acts there is no freedom.
And if we had judgement not accompanied by any inclination to act, our soul would be an understanding without will."

Leibniz

Free will:
- is not being forced
- has inclination or else it would be inactive
- has a judgement

Do you agree with this?

 

[Depleted]

We only have to choices: we either believe in the only begotten Son of God or we don't. No other choices do we have and it takes our will/minds to make the choice.

The way I see it - faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God. Does hearing the word of God open our eyes, open our understanding to the point where we either trust it or do not trust it? (Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God. Rom. 10:17; In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. Eph. 1:13)

The whole point though - who is it that has to trust/believe? Is it already predestined who will trust/believe? or is the thing predestined thewhole plan of salvation?

I don't know but my Bible says "whosoever believes" not "whosoever is elected" . . . . My Bible also says that God wants all men to be saved . . . . And as far as God changing us to do his will - Wonder why we are told to renew our minds? to put off the old man and to put on the new man? If we have nothing to do with this relationship thingy -then we don't even need to repent because hey, your either in or your out! And isn't there such a thing as resisting the holy Spirit?

If you weren't so stuck on one sentence in a longer discourse from Jesus, you could keep going and finding out what our choice was. Who is elected is verse 21, right after that verse 16. And who wasn't elected is verses 19 and 20. It's a whole concept, so took more than one sentence to say.

 

[Depleted]

I have said a prayer for your mom to be in heaven. God hears and answers all prayers and heard this prayer even before He created the universe. It does say that there will be no more sorrow or tears in the next life. Well, it would be very sorrowful and tearful indeed if our loved ones are not there with us. Now, God could simply wipe our memories of those that didn't make it but to me that seems like lying and is in conflict with there no longer being sorrow or tears. Your mom will be there waiting for you. Probably cook you something special too. Mothers do things like that.

Meh! Dad's the cook. (Mom was the dessert maker. lol)

But, if praying for people works, then wouldn't everyone be in heaven? I can't think of anyone I'd want excluded. Even Stalin.

 

[followjesus]

The verses do not make sense if we are elect on already on our way to heaven.Whoever "we" are. If your choice has been taken away,and as said by the poster, above the sinner cant respond,then these verses make no sense. Do I need to go through each verse?

2 peter 1:3-11 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the KNOWLEDGE OF HIM that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5And beside this, GIVING ALL DILIGENCE, ADD TO your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the KNOWLEDGE OF our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his OLD SINS..

10Wherefore the rather, brethren, GIVE DILIGENCE TO MAKE YOUR CALLING AND ELECTION SURE: for IF YE DO THESE THINGS , ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."

i think some are confused by the fact that were elected, election doesnt mean we can do no wrong or depart from that calling and election. were supposed to learn from the isrealites who were elected and then rebelled and fell in the desert.