Not By Works

[Grace777x70]

o.k., so you talk about love , then you backdoor a " know you are driven by things beyond your control or knowledge". what a joke.

you sir need to take a serious dose of humility.

and, by the way, e.g. is right and you are wrong. as usual.

The sky is still blue...

Unfortunately that is why it is not a good thing to interact with those that continue to exhibit this type of behavior. Nothing good comes from it. There is always an "insult" that goes with what is said.

Simply avoiding this kind of behavior types stops this from happening. We can simply avoid them and carry on.


James 3:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

 

[PeterJens]

o.k., so you talk about love , then you backdoor a " know you are driven by things beyond your control or knowledge". what a joke.
you sir need to take a serious dose of humility.
and, by the way, e.g. is right and you are wrong. as usual.

God bless you.
gb9 - So behaviour matters to you does it, yet you hold the magic key no matter
what you do. Sounds to me behaviour does not matter to you, and you do not
even have to feel sorry for the evil you do, or damage or harm, it is just forgiven.

Now please tell me the difference between a homicidal maniac butchering his way
through a city and yourself with this theology. You both go to heaven. Is that
really what Jesus to bring about through the cross?

Now if not, why not? This position has to be answered, because you are changing
scripture and its intentions to bring this about.

And when you are preaching to the likes of Ghengis Kahn it actually does matter,
because he would have been very happy this this kind of theology. In Islam, as
long as they are unbelievers who have been given the chance of faith, it is perfectly
fine to butcher them, or ISIS and the war in Syria.

So please do not try and side step these issues, they are not minor or extreme.
This is where life and death hit the tarmac.

 

[Ariel82]

I went back do not see a link, or does not work on my IPAD​

Here is the relevant quote from the article

Martin Luther: Two Kinds of Righteousness

[6] The second kind of righteousness is our proper righteousness, not because we alone work it, but because we work with that first and alien righteousness. This is that manner of life spent profitably in good works, in the first place, in slaying the flesh and crucifying the desires with respect to the self, of which we read in Gal. 5:24, “And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” In the second place, this righteousness consists in love to one’s neighbor, and in the third place, in meekness and fear towards God. The Apostle is full of references to these, as is all the rest of Scripture. He briefly summarizes everything, however, in Titus 2:12, “ In this world let us live soberly (pertaining to crucifying one’s own flesh), justly (referring to one’s neighbor), and devoutly (relating to God).”
[7] This righteousness is the product of the righteousness of the first type, actually its fruit and consequence, for we read in Gal. 5:22, “But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” For because the works mentioned are works of men, it is obvious that in this passage a spiritual man is called “spirit.”

 

[PeterJens]

as we have said before. A person of true faith works. You can not claim to have faith, yet do no work, Because living faith acts, it does not sit still,

So you believe like I do. Welcome brother, amen.
God bless you. I am glad we agree at last about our stand before the
King, saved by grace through faith to walk in righteousness through the work of the Holy Spirit
in our lives, Halleluyah.

 

[PeterJens]

A quick note - Some people manage to read in things which I never intend,
accuse me of things I do not do, and then call me to repent of these straw men
they have created. You have to wonder why and how.
Maybe they have been taking notes from Roger Stone

 

[Ariel82]

The sky is still blue...

Unfortunately that is why it is not a good thing to interact with those that continue to exhibit this type of behavior. Nothing good comes from it. There is always an "insult" that goes with what is said.

Simply avoiding this kind of behavior types stops this from happening. We can simply avoid them and carry on.


James 3:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison.

[SUP]9 [/SUP] With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God;

[SUP]10 [/SUP] from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

One day maybe you will take your own advice, but the fact you cover for word of Faith false teachers with this same statement doesn't help matters.

There are two extremes...the "workers for" it came takers as Dcon calls them and the WOF FALSE teachers or "hyper graders" as others label folks.

Both are demonic doctrines.

The only thing is most people would reject both doctrines if honestly confronted with either.

Another issue is that People don't stand for The gospel alone but "pick sides" and proponents of both false gospels pick and jab and get folks to fight.

Why don't folks see that our battle is not against flesh and blood?

We fight against false doctrines that enslave people. Not against one another.

I hate hypocrisy.

Some folks need to look up what "avoid" means..,it does not include taking jabs
and pretending to innocent when the other person respond in offense.

 

[Ariel82]

A quick note - Some people manage to read in things which I never intend,
accuse me of things I do not do, and then call me to repent of these straw men
they have created. You have to wonder why and how.
Maybe they have been taking notes from Roger Stone

V
Cuz you do it to them.

No one on this thread preaches against doing good works.

They preach against works salvation and folks trusting that their works saves them instead of Faith in Jesus,

 

[PeterJens]

The argument about what people believe, is some do not actually know the answer,
and when asked, rarely answer.

One exchange, all questions were answered, which made a change.
Ofcourse if people change what they believe it is hard to know which version today they
are following.

A for instance is condemning people for saying behaviour shows your faith.
Without a behaviour change, faith has not taken hold.
I have seen attacks on this on the basis do you wait a month, year or lifetime.
Some have attacked even looking at any fruit at all.
Some have said fruitlessness is understood and God cares and helps all the more.
Anything to avoid a final judgement of a lack of faith.

Others are quick to say you are going to hell and taking others with you.
So I am always open for people to declare their personal positions, but to have
an onslaught, accusations of sin, slander etc. without explanation is rather like
getting beaten up.

Jesus says this about when this happens to you

Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matt 5:11-12

Now I have a good heart, and I do love you.
When the soldiers mocked Jesus, there was not an answer one could bring,
because the intention was obvious. God bless you.

 

[PeterJens]

V
Cuz you do it to them.

No one on this thread preaches against doing good works.

They preach against works salvation and folks trusting that their works saves them instead of Faith in Jesus,

Ariel - I have been scarred by a discussion on the good samaritan. Was he good because he was
a believer, and if he had not been a believer was the deed good. Unfortunately enough people
seriously took the position a deed done by a non-believer was always evil, I no longer accept
your assumption.

If you hold all sin is now forgiven in the whole world, and judgement is just on deeds,
deeds can then be evil or good.

Works salvation to me is the wrong battle here. The real battle is does behaviour as a
believer bring judgement or blessing or is irrelevant.

Now saying I am going to hell, and leading others to hell is actually disowning me of faith.
Do you see this is not what I am saying of them, yet somehow you are equating this
discussion like it makes sense.

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel - I have been scarred by a discussion on the good samaritan. Was he good because he was
a believer, and if he had not been a believer was the deed good. Unfortunately enough people
seriously took the position a deed done by a non-believer was always evil, I no longer accept
your assumption.

If you hold all sin is now forgiven in the whole world, and judgement is just on deeds,
deeds can then be evil or good.

Works salvation to me is the wrong battle here. The real battle is does behaviour as a
believer bring judgement or blessing or is irrelevant.

Now saying I am going to hell, and leading others to hell is actually disowning me of faith.
Do you see this is not what I am saying of them, yet somehow you are equating this
discussion like it makes sense.

No your posts makes no sense because you want this discussion to be about YOUR pet topic when it's not...it's a thread about and against works salvation.

.just cuz you don't think it's important as your pet platform, doesn't change what the thread was created for and is about,

Just allows your words to be easily misunderstood and misrepresented because folks don't realize while they are looking at folks struggling up the mountain..,you want to talk about how folks should walk down to the stream on the other side.

Seems to be a common theme.....my platform is more important than whatever y'all are talking about.

 

[PeterJens]

V
Cuz you do it to them.

No one on this thread preaches against doing good works.

They preach against works salvation and folks trusting that their works saves them instead of Faith in Jesus,

If the good samaritan was an unbeliever was his action good.

Some will say no. And that is why I think your assumption is wrong.
I say this because we had a thread on this very issue.

Another one, did Elijah sin by running for his life from Jezebel. Some believe
he did. The kind of ethical teaching people follow and how they view morality
has become very unbiblical and you can assume nothing.

To hold the church has brain washed its members into believing what they do
about sin, and you have to accept a different view entirely to see the world
properly, is ironically brain washing yourself into disbelief.

I saw this in a debate between muslims and christians. Each spoke to their
own audience, and each audience thought they had won, because an emotional,
moral and personal language was being used and only each group understood their
own.

Jesus said about the effects of such approaches

the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God.
John 16:2

One mistake I think you make is believing propoganda and justification for
anger and annoyance. People will event a reason to get annoyed if they
want to fight, because fighting is their objective not peace or love.

 

[Ariel82]

Ariel - I have been scarred by a discussion on the good samaritan. Was he good because he was
a believer, and if he had not been a believer was the deed good. Unfortunately enough people
seriously took the position a deed done by a non-believer was always evil, I no longer accept
your assumption.

what assumption would that be that you assuming that I am making?

Good deeds are good whether they are done by believers or unbelievers but only righteous if done for God's glory.

If you hold all sin is now forgiven in the whole world, and judgement is just on deeds,
deeds can then be evil or good.

you mean if people hold your belief? I don't even know what this statement means.

Works salvation to me is the wrong battle here.

yeah but THAT IS THE BATTLE BEING FOUGHT! Where do you stand? For or against salvation for works?

The real battle is does behaviour as a
believer bring judgement or blessing or is irrelevant.

maybe that is YOUR battle and you and to pick a fight with everyone you don't agree with?

Bad behavior brings conviction and correction by God on His children to teach them godly lives.

Good behavior gives HEAVENLY rewards in the form of a crown of righteousness and oil to keep us going in this life.

It is irrelevant to this discussion because work based salvation is a false gospel and does not save anyone.
If their foundation is NOT JESUS CHRIST,if they have not been sealed by the Holy Spirit, they are NOT BELIEVERS.

Now saying I am going to hell, and leading others to hell is actually disowning me of faith.

Or misunderstanding why you can't stay in topic and them getting mad at you?

Do you see this is not what I am saying of them, yet somehow you are equating this
discussion like it makes sense.

You and G777 do the same thing to one another (make up strawmen about what the other believes and precede in burning them). Some folks fall into the trap and join either of your band wagons.

I ask when folks will stop for a moment and look at the false doctrine and instead of attacking the fake face placed on the scarecrow....attack the false doctrine by presenting the Gospel truth.

 

[PeterJens]

No your posts makes no sense because you want this discussion to be about YOUR pet topic when it's not...it's a thread about and against works salvation.

.just cuz you don't think it's important as your pet platform, doesn't change what the thread was created for and is about,

Just allows your words to be easily misunderstood and misrepresented because folks don't realize while they are looking at folks struggling up the mountain..,you want to talk about how folks should walk down to the stream on the other side.

Seems to be a common theme.....my platform is more important than whatever y'all are talking about.

The topic is about works.
I am talking about works and how works are not a moral issue.

How is this off the topic?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here is the relevant quote from the article

Martin Luther: Two Kinds of Righteousness

[6] The second kind of righteousness is our proper righteousness, not because we alone work it, but because we work with that first and alien righteousness. This is that manner of life spent profitably in good works, in the first place, in slaying the flesh and crucifying the desires with respect to the self, of which we read in Gal. 5:24, “And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.” In the second place, this righteousness consists in love to one’s neighbor, and in the third place, in meekness and fear towards God. The Apostle is full of references to these, as is all the rest of Scripture. He briefly summarizes everything, however, in Titus 2:12, “ In this world let us live soberly (pertaining to crucifying one’s own flesh), justly (referring to one’s neighbor), and devoutly (relating to God).”
[7] This righteousness is the product of the righteousness of the first type, actually its fruit and consequence, for we read in Gal. 5:22, “But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” For because the works mentioned are works of men, it is obvious that in this passage a spiritual man is called “spirit.”

i can agree which The that. A work done not out of self, but not of love,, these works expect nothing in return

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The topic is about works.
I am talking about works and how works are not a moral issue.

How is this off the topic?

The topic is about salvation, and are works required to be saved, get saved, maintain salvation or keep us from losing salvation.


not about works as a whole. D.C. Does not teach against works, he teaches against legalistic works required to be saved

 

[PeterJens]

if you hold all sin is now forgiven in the whole world, and judgement is just on deeds,
deeds can then be evil or good.

you mean if people hold your belief? I don't even know what this statement means.

Belief - After the cross all sin was forgiven in the whole world. No sinner would be
judged for any sin they had ever commited.
Judgement is just on deeds done in faith, good, or deeds done in disbelief evil.

This is the belief system some are working to.
It is sometimes hard to know which are following this, but it is a core HG idea.

It obviously impacts on a discussion such as this, because we are not all on the
same theological playing field.

 

[Ariel82]

The topic is about works.
I am talking about works and how works are not a moral issue.

How is this off the topic?

The topic is SALVATION IS NOT BY WORKS...how can you be discussing something and not even know the real topic?

Again.., they want to help people up to the mountain top...you want to talk about walking down the valley on the other side (which can't happen until they make it UP THE MOUNTAIN FIRST aka accept Christ Jesus as their foundation).
.
Yet YOU think you are right and they just don't see the "real" issue?

 

[PeterJens]

The topic is about salvation, and are works required to be saved, get saved, maintain salvation or keep us from losing salvation.
not about works as a whole. D.C. Does not teach against works, he teaches against legalistic works required to be saved

So some works are legalistic and some are not?

I have heard that works done from self are evil, but done from God are good.
An angel comes down and points out the ones which are good so believers are
able to tell the difference

And what is the difference between sinful actions and blessed actions.
So many boundaries and reference points are crossed it becomes very confusing.

 

[Ariel82]

Belief - After the cross all sin was forgiven in the whole world. No sinner would be
judged for any sin they had ever commited.
Judgement is just on deeds done in faith, good, or deeds done in disbelief evil.

This is the belief system some are working to.
It is sometimes hard to know which are following this, but it is a core HG idea.

It obviously impacts on a discussion such as this, because we are not all on the
same theological playing field.

Okay let's take a survey....anyone believe this false grace Universalist doctrine?

I vote "not me"

I know we have at least one Universalist on the forum who believes all mankind will be saved (he is the only one who would vote yes). Probably a few Word of Faith (false) prosperity supporters. (who might back him up)

However the majority don't buy into that load of rubbish.

 

[gb9]

So some works are legalistic and some are not?

I have heard that works done from self are evil, but done from God are good.
An angel comes down and points out the ones which are good so believers are
able to tell the difference

And what is the difference between sinful actions and blessed actions.
So many boundaries and reference points are crossed it becomes very confusing.

we are saved by grace through faith for good works. that is not confusing. when you and others do not accept this, try to change it, then that creates confusion.