Lets Talk Free Choice

[trofimus]

I am curious to know what you mean by primitive feelings?

All people have a feeling that they freely decide how they want.
Only few are able to think it deeper, define it etc.

It has been said that no Scripture is given to support the idea that we have a choice, is that correct?

I said that? Or you mean somebody else?
There are hundreds of Scripture verses we have a choice.

But I wonder, too, why Jesus would exhort us to repent and believe if we had no choice in the matter.

We have a choice. But nobody can think that we have a totally equal inclination to good and evil. Or that we have a choice to fly or live under water.

So our choice is limited by:
a) our nature (you cant fly like a bird, you do not have this choice)
b) our state (health etc)
c) our circumstances (you cant go left if there is no left to go)
d) philosophically - you are limited by what you like and do not like, see Buridan's donkey.

Faith is certainly a gift we receive IF we do not reject it, for it is not forced on us against our will, and from then on, how do we participate in the building of our faith? I can hardly think anyone really believes we just sit back and God does all the work of relieving us of our own ways of thinking... although, honestly, some people do talk that way, like there is some sin-all-you-want-and-get-out-of-jail-free card that others employ, while they tout the sinless perfection line.

There is kind of "common grace" given to all. And we can not accept or reject it. We just live in what the life has brought to us. We did not accept or reject our time of birth, family, DNA etc etc.

Then there is also a common calling of the gospel (many are called) and we can accept it or reject it. Some people can even change their stance and reject, accept, reject and vice versa.

Then there is a special calling, when God prepared you to such a state (being born from above and other graces) that you will choose it and hold it till death.

 

[Adstar]

One of my main objectives in this discussion was to show that NO human beings are Zombies.. So of course i do not believe that calvinists are Zombies.. I believe calvinists have Free will.. They have the free will to believe they have no free will.. So if you would quote my post where i said Calvinists are Zombies i will apologize for that wrong statement publicly to you..

On another point you have declared me to be a Zombie:: Now i can kind of understand if you feel i called calvinists Zombies, Us humans who are offended often hit back because of hurt emotions before taking a breath and taking the better path..

Ok so i did what the Bible has directed me to do when it comes to a problem you are having with a fellow Christian,, I did it for one person first and gave them time to reply and bring forth a resolution and they ignored my approach.. In this post i came to the second person to seek a resolution in front of everyone and this person has also refused to respond to attempt to bring about a resolution..

I'm finished with this thread...

 

[preacher4truth]

Do you mean like saying Calvinism believes that no one can resist the Holy Spirit???

What's it called when you do something that you tell others not to do? hypocrisy?

Yep, it's called hypocrisy.

 

[Grace777x70]

Perhaps Jesus and the Father have a different theology and operate from a different belief system.

Here is an example of how people mis-interpret or mis-represent what is really being said.

This statement above is not saying that Jesus and the Father have different belief systems. It was an answer to the question of why would Jesus say that He wanted to gather the people in Jerusalem to Himself but they would not.

Perhaps the Father and Jesus belief system says that people have a choice. That is what is "different".

This scripture shows that God is willing but some people are not willing. Jesus said "How often" I wanted to.....but you would not.

Matthew 23:37 (NASB)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

 

[Ariel82]

And by this you mean that we are attracted to right and wrong equally?

No...our upbringing and natural inclinations move us towards right or wrong.

If we live in a God fearing family with love and rules and deep connection with God through prayers and Bible reading...we are more likely to pick right. However, the Enemy tempts kids from godly families because they seek to destroy any one who reflects God's love and truth. Kids have to make the decision to accept the Gospel and serve God...not just follow family traditions.

Someone who was born part of the mob and witness death, and crime daily may be more inclined to wrong. I know of some parents that teach their kids to steal cigarettes for them. However I believe God can reach those kids and make them stronger believers than ones who come from Christian homes because they know the pit that God drew them from.

So no, I don't believe the pull is equal in people's lives. It all depends on circumstances of birth and throughout life, spiritual forces at work in their lives and their natural inclination and personality that determine if they are drawn to right or wrong choices.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

All people have a feeling that they freely decide how they want.
Only few are able to think it deeper, define it etc.

I said that? Or you mean somebody else?
There are hundreds of Scripture verses we have a choice.

We have a choice. But nobody can think that we have a totally equal inclination to good and evil. Or that we have a choice to fly or live under water.

So our choice is limited by:
a) our nature (you cant fly like a bird, you do not have this choice)
b) our state (health etc)
c) our circumstances (you cant go left if there is no left to go)
d) philosophically - you are limited by what you like and do not like, see Buridan's donkey.

Well, then logically those things listed above are really not choices.
1) We are human, we know we can't fly so flying is not an option to choose.
2) If you are paralyzed - there is no choice to walk, if you are mentally disabled and cannot make a choice - again there is no other option, etc.
3) If there is not the option to turn left then that is not available as a choice.
4) Limited by what you like and don't like? - I can choose to do what I like and I can choose to do what I don't like . . . that is an option.
Whosoever can choose to either believe in Jesus Christ or not believe in Jesus Christ - that is the choice presented to us for salvation.

There is kind of "common grace" given to all. And we can not accept or reject it. We just live in what the life has brought to us. We did not accept or reject our time of birth, family, DNA etc etc.

Then there is also a common calling of the gospel (many are called) and we can accept it or reject it. Some people can even change their stance and reject, accept, reject and vice versa.

Then there is a special calling, when God prepared you to such a state (being born from above and other graces) that you will choose it and hold it till death.

The only way to be born from above is to believe in the only begotten Son of God. You are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH - you make the choice to believe in the only begotten Son of God, confess him as Lord, believe God raised him from the dead and you are saved and HE holds you until the day of redemption.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

To say we are all pieces on a chessboard being manipulated into strategic positions where some get sacrificed, and some are used to win the game. To say that is utterly ridiculous painting God into a nice neat box that we can claim to say how God works.

Man always trying to explain everything. I guess a weak faith will make one do that to try and make sense of the most intelligent, all knowing, all seeing, all loving, and all holy God.

To try and explain away free will is taking the accountability of sin off the sinner. Basically trying to put God in our human understanding.

Genesis 1:26-28New International Version (NIV)

26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

God created mankind in his image and in his likeness. Giving us free will as in his likeness to rule over all creatures.

Genesis 2:16-17New International Version (NIV)

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Giving man a choice to live or die.

Genesis 2:19-20New International Version (NIV)

19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals.

But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

A good first example of the relationship between God and man. God brings the animals, God allows man to name them. God takes a rib from Adam and creates a female who then is named by Adam.

Genesis 4:1New International Version (NIV)

Cain and Abel
4 Adam[a] made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the Lord I have brought forth[c] a man.”

With the help of the Lord She brought forth a man.

Genesis 6:22New International Version (NIV)

22 Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

Genesis 7:16New International Version (NIV)

16 The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord shut him in.

God told Noah to build, and Noah was obedient. Then when the rain began to fall, God closed the door!

Isaiah 14:12-14New International Version (NIV)

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.[a]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”

Angels also having free will. In the very presence of God, lucifer allowed pride to corrupt his heart and chose to rebel against God.

How can a angel living in the very presence of God choose to rebel, if free will didn't exist?

 

[Depleted]

No...our upbringing and natural inclinations move us towards right or wrong.

If we live in a God fearing family with love and rules and deep connection with God through prayers and Bible reading...we are more likely to pick right. However, the Enemy tempts kids from godly families because they seek to destroy any one who reflects God's love and truth. Kids have to make the decision to accept the Gospel and serve God...not just follow family traditions.

Someone who was born part of the mob and witness death, and crime daily may be more inclined to wrong. I know of some parents that teach their kids to steal cigarettes for them. However I believe God can reach those kids and make them stronger believers than ones who come from Christian homes because they know the pit that God drew them from.

So no, I don't believe the pull is equal in people's lives. It all depends on circumstances of birth and throughout life, spiritual forces at work in their lives and their natural inclination and personality that determine if they are drawn to right or wrong choices.

I know a family -- all the siblings that are still alive. (One died young. Never knew him.) Three brothers and two sisters. They were all raised the same way.
-- Their father was a drunken homosexual. (Homosexuals got married and had kids back then because it was something that could get you killed if people found out.)
-- Their mother was a narcissistic, psychotic with OCD, who would beat them for what they did and what they didn't do. (If they cleaned a window -- which they had to clean all the windows every Saturday, along with the rest of the house -- not to her satisfaction, and she was OCD so it was never to her satisfaction, they got beat by a wired coat hanger, broom-handle, or whatever was close by to beat them with. If it was her hand, by the time she was done her hand was swollen and bruised from all the blood vessels burst in it. If they came home with anything less than As, and, oh btw, she never thought much of school or never gave them time to study, she lined them up, had them grab hold of the banister and went right down the row until she ran out of energy. She had a lot of energy/rage.)
-- Incest. Not a single one of them (except for the one brother who died, but he was sickly so had a special place -- he was the excuse for the mother being a martyr in the family, because everything she did for him made it alright to do the worst to everyone else), made it to age 14 without being raped by someone, or several in the family. Father, mother, cousins, uncles, and siblings, since, at times, they'd do the same thing to their younger brothers and sisters. And, it wasn't necessarily incest with opposite genders either, since the father was homosexual.
-- When the mother wasn't busy beating the kids, she was screaming at her husband for hours at a time, or hitting him over the head with a frying pan. Basically she kept that up until he hauled off and clobbered her. (Or went upstairs and rape one of the kids. She didn't mind, since she had the oldest son as her partner in bed.)

That was their lives. Now they are all parents and most are grandparents. (The youngest just gave away his daughter in marriage, so they're waiting for the grandparent moment still. lol) They all chose to live better than what they grew up with. They married better. They fought the good fight to regain normalcy. And what was that good fight? For all of them therapy. For half of them salvation in Christ. (Including the sick brother, who was saved in his hospital bed two weeks before he died. Oh! And the father was saved on his death bed too! The mother never was.)

On the other side of it, I know many Christian families who raised their kids up to believe what they believe, and yet, their kids are either in prison or the mother of four who really isn't quite sure who the father is for any of the kids, except that the father is out of the picture.

It's really not how we grew up. It's all working out perfectly according to God's plan.

 

[Ariel82]

Folks tend to skip over this part "spiritual forces at work in their lives "

 

[trofimus]

No...our upbringing and natural inclinations move us towards right or wrong.

If we cant give ourselves the right inclinations, our free will is very limited and is free only in the meaning "nobody forces us to choose this or that".

It is certain we will choose this or that, because of our inclinations. Certain, but not necessary.

And thats how we can be predestined and still be responsible for our actions.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

If we cant give ourselves the right inclinations, our free will is very limited and is free only in the meaning "nobody forces us to choose this or that".

It is certain we will choose this or that, because of our inclinations. Certain, but not necessary.

And thats how we can be predestined and still be responsible for our actions.

i would say my actions were dictated by pleasure
image
pride
finance

untill "the right" inclinations were given to me

i dont feel i gave the understanding of true righteousness to myself

i only now choose to ignore it if i sin
or allow the holy spirit to overcome it through me

 

[Magenta]

To say we are all pieces on a chessboard being manipulated into strategic positions where some get sacrificed, and some are used to win the game. To say that is utterly ridiculous painting God into a nice neat box that we can claim to say how God works.

Man always trying to explain everything. I guess a weak faith will make one do that to try and make sense of the most intelligent, all knowing, all seeing, all loving, and all holy God.

To try and explain away free will is taking the accountability of sin off the sinner. Basically trying to put God in our human understanding.

I used a chess board analogy, but certainly not to suggest what you are saying... not in the least. Did somebody else also use a chess board analogy with a completely different take than mine? Could you please show me the post? I have not read the whole thread...

PS: Jesus used a lot of metaphors and analogies

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I know a family -- all the siblings that are still alive. (One died young. Never knew him.) Three brothers and two sisters. They were all raised the same way.
-- Their father was a drunken homosexual. (Homosexuals got married and had kids back then because it was something that could get you killed if people found out.)
-- Their mother was a narcissistic, psychotic with OCD, who would beat them for what they did and what they didn't do. (If they cleaned a window -- which they had to clean all the windows every Saturday, along with the rest of the house -- not to her satisfaction, and she was OCD so it was never to her satisfaction, they got beat by a wired coat hanger, broom-handle, or whatever was close by to beat them with. If it was her hand, by the time she was done her hand was swollen and bruised from all the blood vessels burst in it. If they came home with anything less than As, and, oh btw, she never thought much of school or never gave them time to study, she lined them up, had them grab hold of the banister and went right down the row until she ran out of energy. She had a lot of energy/rage.)
-- Incest. Not a single one of them (except for the one brother who died, but he was sickly so had a special place -- he was the excuse for the mother being a martyr in the family, because everything she did for him made it alright to do the worst to everyone else), made it to age 14 without being raped by someone, or several in the family. Father, mother, cousins, uncles, and siblings, since, at times, they'd do the same thing to their younger brothers and sisters. And, it wasn't necessarily incest with opposite genders either, since the father was homosexual.
-- When the mother wasn't busy beating the kids, she was screaming at her husband for hours at a time, or hitting him over the head with a frying pan. Basically she kept that up until he hauled off and clobbered her. (Or went upstairs and rape one of the kids. She didn't mind, since she had the oldest son as her partner in bed.)

That was their lives. Now they are all parents and most are grandparents. (The youngest just gave away his daughter in marriage, so they're waiting for the grandparent moment still. lol) They all chose to live better than what they grew up with. They married better. They fought the good fight to regain normalcy. And what was that good fight? For all of them therapy. For half of them salvation in Christ. (Including the sick brother, who was saved in his hospital bed two weeks before he died. Oh! And the father was saved on his death bed too! The mother never was.)

On the other side of it, I know many Christian families who raised their kids up to believe what they believe, and yet, their kids are either in prison or the mother of four who really isn't quite sure who the father is for any of the kids, except that the father is out of the picture.

It's really not how we grew up. It's all working out perfectly according to God's plan.

So all of the above was God's plan: - the incest, the beatings, the homosexuality, etc.?

How can God be contrary to who he is, i.e. his attributes? It's God's plan to do/cause something to happen then teaches us not to do these things?

The thief comes not but for to steal, kill and destroy; I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly. John 10:10
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8
In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, . . . 2 Cor. 4:4

Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying Turn from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets. Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks like to the neck of their fathers, and did not believe in the LORD their God. 2 Kings 17:13
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked: but that the wicked turn from his way and live, turn, turn from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? Ezekiel 33:11
Be not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn now from your evil ways and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, saith the LORD. Zechariah 1:4

Why does God ask man to do something he can't do?

There are two spiritual forces at work in this world: God and Satan

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here is an example of how people mis-interpret or mis-represent what is really being said.

This statement above is not saying that Jesus and the Father have different belief systems. It was an answer to the question of why would Jesus say that He wanted to gather the people in Jerusalem to Himself but they would not.

Perhaps the Father and Jesus belief system says that people have a choice. That is what is "different".

This scripture shows that God is willing but some people are not willing. Jesus said "How often" I wanted to.....but you would not.

Matthew 23:37 (NASB)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Again....Your children...not YOU...

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm seeing more appealling to the emotions than to the scriptures.

 

[preacher4truth]

Again....Your children...not YOU...

...and now there is attempt to justify the former erroneous statement and wiggle out of it and change the wording.

These things happen when one isn't being sound in faith or when one doesn't hold to sound doctrine.

These are herein described: "so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

 

[SovereignGrace]

...and now there is attempt to justify the former erroneous statement and wiggle out of it and change the wording.

These things happen when one isn't being sound in faith or when one doesn't hold to sound doctrine.

These are herein described: "so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

Context? Who needs context when I can appeal to my emotions?

The context of Matthew 23:37 was the children being gathered not the idolatrous adults who had Abraham as their father.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I used a chess board analogy, but certainly not to suggest what you are saying... not in the least. Did somebody else also use a chess board analogy with a completely different take than mine? Could you please show me the post? I have not read the whole thread...

PS: Jesus used a lot of metaphors and analogies

No i have not seen your post or another. I just pop in and tell my opinion, and pop out.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

So all of the above was God's plan: - the incest, the beatings, the homosexuality, etc.?

How can God be contrary to who he is, i.e. his attributes? It's God's plan to do/cause something to happen then teaches us not to do these things?

The thief comes not but for to steal, kill and destroy; I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly. John 10:10
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Peter 5:8
In whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, . . . 2 Cor. 4:4

Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying Turn from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets. Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks like to the neck of their fathers, and did not believe in the LORD their God. 2 Kings 17:13
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked: but that the wicked turn from his way and live, turn, turn from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? Ezekiel 33:11
Be not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn now from your evil ways and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me, saith the LORD. Zechariah 1:4

Why does God ask man to do something he can't do?

There are two spiritual forces at work in this world: God and Satan

Amen we cant stress enough Jesus died for all to have the chance to live.

And so how can we define all when we know not all will be saved. The answer is a choice. God gave all the choice. Not all will respond. But few faithful making the gate to heaven narrow and the gates of hell wide.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Again....Your children...not YOU...

The concept of that verse is Jesus wanted to save them but they were unwilling( which means they had a choice but chose not to respond) that verse is not talking to us but we can learn from the concept.

Just as parts of Pauls letters were written directly to the church and the others parts written to any reader. Samething applys we can take what the church was doing right or wrong and learn from it.

If anyone needs to study context and truth it would be the unconditional election group.