Not By Works

[FranC]

To me we have been sanctified, which to me encompasses being set apart, made/declared Holy.

Hebrews 10:8-10
Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.



1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

So to me having been sanctified we walk in the way for which we have been set apart for. To me that's sanctification process.

So to To me in the eyes of God in this life In is eyes on account of Jesus we have been sanctified just as we are justified on account of Jesus.

Either way I think we both agree that actually it's internal change that matters and not the external.

To me I am wary that believers can walk in a way of "I don't do this and don't do that" But neglect the other.

I know you are not like that.

Bill,
Regarding 1 Co 6:11, I've said many times here that we cannot learn J and S from Paul's writings because he used the terms interchangeably. It's something that has to be studied like the Holy Trinity. Theologians came up with the theology.

We are being sanctified. We are NOt sanctified yet, and most probably will never be sanctified.

Sanctified DOES MEAN being set apart. But being set apart for what?

If we're set apart for it, it means it's an ongoing process, which is what sanctification is.
We are not sanctified yet.

People want to say that we are positionally sanctified. The bible does not speak to this.
What I can say is that we are safe in the hands of Jesus for as long as we stay there.
If they mean THIS to be positionally sanctified, thenI agree. If they mean that we are sanctified no matter what, as if we were talking about Justification, then I cannot agree.

It's s easy to read up on this that I don't know how there could be any misunderstanding.
Basically all denominations understand the difference between the two, and understand that S requires our efforts, our works, our cooperation.

The New Covenant shows us a NEW WAY to be holy. But we must still be holy and set apart.
Not by Law
but by Grace.

 

[FranC]

Cheap Grace
Cheap Love

is when someone does EVERYTHING FOR YOU

And You do nothing in return...

Do you have a child?
Do you love him?
Do you do everything for him?
Does he do anything for you in return?
No? Nothing? Are you happy about this?


I know he does things for you.
Like love you back.
Like listen to.
Like do what you ask him.

Mutual love requires mutual doing.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Cheap Grace
Cheap Love

is when someone does EVERYTHING FOR YOU

And You do nothing in return...

Do you have a child?
Do you love him?
Do you do everything for him?
Does he do anything for you in return?
No? Nothing? Are you happy about this?


I know he does things for you.
Like love you back.
Like listen to.
Like do what you ask him.

Mutual love requires mutual doing.

wait cheap grace



it is free grace as the picture says

and as romans says

our good works are also gifts

 

[Ariel82]

Aerial dont forget to pray for me befor you go

I always pray for you Jimbo., just surprised Stephen63 doesn't say anything about Joseph Prince or Joel Osteen.

 

[JIMBO43]

I is confused by that "We can be, and feeling of security"

Surely if we can be means that it's not secure.

Given what I know about the Hyper-grace movement I can't see JP saying that.

I actually had a period of time when I was communicating with Paul Ellis via E2R e-mail I never got the impression that you have seemed to have got with what JP said.

He did reconise that it was an unmerited favor tho. enough said.

meaning not by works etc.. which no one here really does think that billy mate... its dc an his mob who think people think like this.. its rediculous

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Romans 3:24

“Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”


Romans 4:4

“Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.”

 

[JIMBO43]

I always pray for you Jimbo.,

why is he not a fan either ? im more of an angus fan and joyce meyer fan..

 

[Ariel82]

Sanctification happens in two parts. Just as there are two types of righteousness: alien and proper.

Alien righteousness is the righteousness that make up our breastplate of protection...it is Christ's righteousness imparted to us.

Proper righteousness is the fruit of being given the alien righteousness of Christ and what we gain by learning to live godly lives and do good works. It is what is judged as either gold, silver precious stones, hay or stubble.., It is what is burnt up but the person can still be saved if they have the alien righteousness of Christ clothing them.

Sanctification is first God washing us clean and placing within us a new heart that seeks His will. Then it is learning to walk and follow the Holy spirit, putting to death the deeds of the flesh by walking in His light. Allow God to change your beliefs and desires to match His.

Here it is again for those who missed it the first time...my working definition of santification.

 

[Grace777x70]

The term "cheap grace" has also been used by some that believe we can lose salvation and thus if someone believes that Jesus is not a liar when He said "The Holy Spirit will be in you forever". John 14:16 - they need to come up with a derogatory term to attack those that believe in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

This is very unfortunate because it cost our Lord Jesus Christ the shedding of His blood and His life on this earth to save us. He is the Savior - not us.

Make no mistake about it - there is an all out war against the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection. But the earth shall be filled with the glory/goodness and knowledge of the Lord in these last days.

We need to be boldly proclaiming the Lord's wondrous grace and love to every one and leave the rest in the hands of the Lord. Boldly proclaim Christ and Him crucified and that we too were crucified with Him and have been raised to newness of life.

We are just as dependent on the Lord's life in us for life and living just as Jesus was dependent on the Father inside of Him. Jesus said that He wasn't doing the works but His Father was doing His works through Him. Jesus said - "I can do nothing from my own initiative".

He is the Vine - we are the branches. Without Him we can do nothing.

Unless the Lord build the house - they labor in vain that build it.

 

[mailmandan]

Cheap Grace
Cheap Love

is when someone does EVERYTHING FOR YOU

And You do nothing in return...

Do you have a child?
Do you love him?
Do you do everything for him?
Does he do anything for you in return?
No? Nothing? Are you happy about this?

I know he does things for you.
Like love you back.
Like listen to.
Like do what you ask him.

Mutual love requires mutual doing.

Nobody is claiming that Jesus saves us and after that, we should do absolutely nothing in return (out of love and gratitude) for Him. Love and gratitude is my motivation for serving Jesus Christ and not pride and expectation that He will save me based on the merits of my works. Huge difference. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

 

[PennEd]

ok the only two verses ive seen that can leave room for sin in a righteous man


none that ive seen anyone here post

but these

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

this being NT has conflicted my understanding


Proverbs 24:16

16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

this is OT
talking before Jesus is easier for me to write off because
it also mentions turning back to God rather than falling back to a sinful life

but the 7 times makes it stick in my head
like Gods making a point


please use as little opinion and emotion as possible in your response

always looks like mindless haughty babble to me

You have asked where in Scripture is there room for sin in a righteous man.

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my Brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

So WHO are our brothers?


46 While He was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. 47 Then one said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.”
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers!50 For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

What is the Will of the Father?

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 This is the Will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

So how can you say a Brother (righteous man in Christ) doesn't sin? Why is Peter asking about forgiving a sinning BROTHER, and Jesus saying CONTINUE TO FORGIVE HIM ALWAYS, if a Brother never sins?

 

[Ariel82]

why is he not a fan either ? im more of an angus fan and joyce meyer fan..

Never heard of Angus but didn't think Stephen likes Joyce Meyers either....I know they have been labeled Word of Faith and teach easy believism and "sow money to get money" type doctrines...though G777 says they don't and are just misunderstood.

I don't feel moved enough to listen to hours of their sermons to tell the difference. I just know I would not recommend their sermons to anyone who asked my opinion on if they teach biblically sound doctrine.

Folks are grown and can make their own decisions.

 

[JIMBO43]

The term "cheap grace" has also been used by some that believe we can lose salvation

Are you also in favor of losing salvation for denying God ?..

 

[Grace777x70]

Never heard of Angus but didn't think Stephen likes Joyce Meyers either....I know they have been labeled Word of Faith and teach easy believism and "sow money to get money" type doctrines...though G777 says they don't and are just misunderstood.

I don't feel moved enough to listen to hours of their sermons to tell the difference. I just know I would not recommend their sermons to anyone who asked my opinion on if they teach biblically sound doctrine.

Folks are grown and can make their own decisions.

Actually the word of faith types that I encountered back in the 80's were not believers in eternal security at all and some did preach a sow to get money doctrine too. Both of these things I personally do not believe in.

There was not much grace in their some of their doctrines that I saw and they were definitely a works-based belief system in many areas.

That may have changed now since I had any interactions with them. The Lord is bringing the gospel of the grace of God in believing on Christ's work to the forefront now so maybe they have changed. But I don't know.

 

[JIMBO43]

Never heard of Angus but didn't think Stephen likes Joyce Meyers either....I know they have been labeled Word of Faith and teach easy believism and "sow money to get money" type doctrines...though G777 says they don't and are just misunderstood.

I don't feel moved enough to listen to hours of their sermons to tell the difference. I just know I would not recommend their sermons to anyone who asked my opinion on if they teach biblically sound doctrine.

Folks are grown and can make their own decisions.

They are both devoted to there work like this scripture.

.
1 Corinthians 16:15
they have devoted themselves to the service of the saints.


and a bit like this..
Deuteronomy 6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

 

[Ariel82]

Thanks for the clarification G777.

 

[Grace777x70]

Are you also in favor of losing salvation for denying God ?..

Define your understanding of "denying God"?

I don't believe any believer in Christ that is sealed with the Holy Spirit can lose salvation. Salvation is based on Christ alone. He is the Savior.

I also believe people can get their minds messed up. True biblical belief is of the heart and not in the mind as Romans 10:9-10 clearly shows.

You tell someone that God killed their baby so that He could "teach" them something or something equally sick and that person will have a warped mind and be against that and thus in his mind - be mad and angry at God.

 

[JIMBO43]

Nobody is claiming that Jesus saves us and after that, we should do absolutely nothing in return (out of love and gratitude) for Him. Love and gratitude is my motivation for serving Jesus Christ and not pride and expectation that He will save me based on the merits of my works. Huge difference. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

we know all about Works not being the main reason for recieving salvation at the end..

We know being saved is an umerited favor...... but we know that salvation is awarded for your good deeds and bad deeds... which becomes merited for salvation unmerited for being saved..

 

[BillG]

Bill,
Regarding 1 Co 6:11, I've said many times here that we cannot learn J and S from Paul's writings because he used the terms interchangeably. It's something that has to be studied like the Holy Trinity. Theologians came up with the theology.

We are being sanctified. We are NOt sanctified yet, and most probably will never be sanctified.

Sanctified DOES MEAN being set apart. But being set apart for what?

If we're set apart for it, it means it's an ongoing process, which is what sanctification is.
We are not sanctified yet.

People want to say that we are positionally sanctified. The bible does not speak to this.
What I can say is that we are safe in the hands of Jesus for as long as we stay there.
If they mean THIS to be positionally sanctified, thenI agree. If they mean that we are sanctified no matter what, as if we were talking about Justification, then I cannot agree.

It's s easy to read up on this that I don't know how there could be any misunderstanding.
Basically all denominations understand the difference between the two, and understand that S requires our efforts, our works, our cooperation.

The New Covenant shows us a NEW WAY to be holy. But we must still be holy and set apart.
Not by Law
but by Grace.

The Event of Sanctification
The Scriptures say that we were sanctified (past tense) and are being sanctified (present tense). You can see this in the epistles of Paulin which he addresses those who are called “saints”1 and “thosewho have been sanctified in Christ Jesus”2 and “saints”. This isalso seen in such passages as 1 Corinthians 6:11 and Hebrews10:10. These pictures show that one very important aspect of oursanctication is a past and present reality. Those who have beenjustied have also been sanctied. This is a precious truth.


The Process of Sanctification

While the Scriptures certainly teach the past and present aspectsof sanctication, they also inform us of the ongoing and futureprogression into sanctication. This truth does not contradict theevent of sanctication, but merely complements it. Those whoare holy are being made holy. Though it is diffi cult to understand,it is impossible to deny.

The above is not my works but something I have in my library.

 

[stonesoffire]

1Co 6:10　 thieves, greedy people, drunks, slanderers, and robbers will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The kingdom being within...thank you for bringing this out Megiddo...
　
1Co 6:11


　 That is what some of you were! But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of our Lord Jesus the Messiah and by the Spirit of our God.　

For what? His purposes.

~
1Co 6:2　 You know that the saints will rule the world, don't you? And if the world is going to be ruled by you, can't you handle insignificant cases?　


1Co 6:3　 You know that we will rule angels, not to mention things in this life, don't you?　

Among other things.