Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
- Thread starter Chris1975
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The sermon on the mount are descriptions of how the kingdom of God works and operates when the life of Christ is manifesting His fruit in our lives.
Trying to mimic good moral living is the hallmark of all the religions of the world and there is a religion called Christianity that attempts to do the same thing. They think that if they mimic the descriptions of the kingdom of God - that makes them righteous. It's a deception. Only Christ makes us righteous.
The message of the righteousness of God in Christ in the gospel is a stumbling block to all that think trying to mimic good morals creates righteousness and thus makes them acceptable to God.
Romans 10:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
[SUP]3[/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
The law represents man's attempts of being righteous by what they do or don't do. All works-based/works-righteousness belief systems are based on this principle.
Trying to mimic good moral living is the hallmark of all the religions of the world and there is a religion called Christianity that attempts to do the same thing. They think that if they mimic the descriptions of the kingdom of God - that makes them righteous. It's a deception. Only Christ makes us righteous.
The message of the righteousness of God in Christ in the gospel is a stumbling block to all that think trying to mimic good morals creates righteousness and thus makes them acceptable to God.
Romans 10:2-4 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
[SUP]3[/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
The law represents man's attempts of being righteous by what they do or don't do. All works-based/works-righteousness belief systems are based on this principle.
First, you didn't prove anything.
What you did show, however, is that the Father DIDN'T GO AFTER THE SON & MAKE HIM COME HOME. The father didn't MAKE him nor FORCE him to do anything.
What the father DID DO was watch & wait, hoping he'd come back. That is the context of the parable.
Sorry, it can't be changed.
What you did show, however, is that the Father DIDN'T GO AFTER THE SON & MAKE HIM COME HOME. The father didn't MAKE him nor FORCE him to do anything.
What the father DID DO was watch & wait, hoping he'd come back. That is the context of the parable.
Sorry, it can't be changed.
Lies.
You just took Romans 10 outta context to say Paul was speaking about the whole worldly religious system, when he was only speaking of the JEWS.
Romans 9:30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,33just as it is written,
“BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
10: 1Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
You lie every time you use a scripture against a so-called "works-salvation".
E V E R Y time Paul speaks against works, it's against THE WORKS OF THE LAW.
Eisegesis..... adding your own meanings to scripture.
You had to do it this way, otherwise the real truth would come out.
You just took Romans 10 outta context to say Paul was speaking about the whole worldly religious system, when he was only speaking of the JEWS.
Romans 9:30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,33just as it is written,
“BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
10: 1Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
You lie every time you use a scripture against a so-called "works-salvation".
E V E R Y time Paul speaks against works, it's against THE WORKS OF THE LAW.
Eisegesis..... adding your own meanings to scripture.
You had to do it this way, otherwise the real truth would come out.
The Judas who was present was not Iscariot
John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
John 13:30-31 tell us that Judas had left: He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
John 13:30-31 tell us that Judas had left: He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him.
What the father didn't do was put on sackcloth and ashes and mourn as a father would if his son had died. The father watched for his son to return. If he thought his son was truly dead, he would not have watched for his son to return. Luke 15:20 But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him. When the son was a great way off ...
Paul was talking ABOUT the Jews to the Romans, and comparing their attitude with what it should have been.
This was what the Jews did, they sought the righteousness of the law and thus failed to obtain it. They sought to obtain it by works. They fell short in one way or the other. They stumbled at the Rock of offence, Jesus Christ. But the Romans and other Gentiles who had sought the righteousness which is by faith, Christ's imputed righteousness (Romans 3 & 4), and had found it.
This says exactly the same thing,. The Jews had failed to obtain righteousness, for they sought to establish their own righteousness by works of the law, and thus failed. As James said, 'if you keep the whole law and yet offend in one point you are guilty of all.'
But the Gentiles who had come to Christ had found that Jesus Christ was the end of the law for (His imputed) righteousness when they believed (along with their fellow Jewish Christians).
It does not matter whether we take 'the end' as the finish of the law, or the aim of the law. Either He had ended the law as a means of condemnation by Himself observing it on their behalf, or He was the final result and aim of the law, which had pointed men to the cross (Galatians 4.1-4)
Yes works done in trying to keep the Law.
My turn.....
If the father knew his son was coming back, he wouldn't have been standing out there every day looking for him at all!
Your turn.
If the father knew his son was coming back, he wouldn't have been standing out there every day looking for him at all!
Your turn.
Even today we anticipate a visit from our loved ones. or if we're expecting someone, we watch for them as we are waiting for their arrival.
I have a granddaughter who knows I'm coming "soon". She's almost 3 and has no concept of weeks, or days. So my son tells her "soon" when she asks him when her grandma is coming.
Oh, and while she's waiting for me, i'm in the airplane. When she hears an airplane, she tells people her grandma is on that plane. Yep. I just fly around in airplanes 24/7.
A Works-based/works-righteousness salvation belief system is anything that we think we have to do in order to be acceptable to God, create or maintain righteousness, other then believing in what Christ has already done by grace through faith alone.
Romans 10:1-5 is describing this mindset and belief system to a "tee" using the Jewish belief system as an example. It is a works-based belief system that denies the grace of God from operating in out lives like it was meant to.
It is the trademark of a works-righteousness D.I.Y works-based salvationists mindset.
In this believing of Christ's work - this releases His life to walk out what we are already in our new creation that is in Christ. The inner man of the heart.
Right believing in Christ produces right thinking ( a transformed mind ) which produces right living that brings His life and goodness so that others can know the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them.
It is the way of the kingdom. Christ is the Alpha and the Omega in all things. He is our life, our righteousness, our wisdom, our sanctification, our redemption. It is Him!
In Him was the life and that life is the light of men.
Romans 10:1-5 is describing this mindset and belief system to a "tee" using the Jewish belief system as an example. It is a works-based belief system that denies the grace of God from operating in out lives like it was meant to.
It is the trademark of a works-righteousness D.I.Y works-based salvationists mindset.
In this believing of Christ's work - this releases His life to walk out what we are already in our new creation that is in Christ. The inner man of the heart.
Right believing in Christ produces right thinking ( a transformed mind ) which produces right living that brings His life and goodness so that others can know the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them.
It is the way of the kingdom. Christ is the Alpha and the Omega in all things. He is our life, our righteousness, our wisdom, our sanctification, our redemption. It is Him!
In Him was the life and that life is the light of men.
Last edited:
You have to take the three parable together. In the first the shepherd sought the lost sheep until He found it and put it on His shoulder and brought it home. He didn't leave it much choice there. The woman sought the coin until she found it. The thought was of persistence in seeking. The parable of the prodigal son was the other side of the story.
I agree...all 3 parables spoken by Jesus at the same time - all speak of "original ownership".
All works-based belief systems always need "to do things" in order to achieve and maintain righteousness and salvation which is why they are against the righteousness of God in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.
Unfortunately some belief systems and mindsets of the Pentecostal religion can exhibit this same type of thinking.
All works-based belief systems always need "to do things" in order to achieve and maintain righteousness and salvation which is why they are against the righteousness of God in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.
Unfortunately some belief systems and mindsets of the Pentecostal religion can exhibit this same type of thinking.
Go to your favorite search engine and search for it... if you read Jesus much, you'd already know about this.
In Romans 1:21 it says they they knew God and became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (see James 1:13-15 below)
and in Romans 1:28 He said they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind...
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
The word here "castaway" is adokimos (Strong's G0096) which is: unapproved, worthless, castaway, rejected, reprobate
This is the same word "Reprobate" that is used in Romans 1:28 and goes hand in hand with Romans 8 that states if we walk after the flesh we shall die which is what Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 9:27 if he did not keep his body under subjection.
How a believer can die
(this was written to Christians cause, sinners out in the world are already dead...)
James 1:13-15
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
In Romans 1:21 it says they they knew God and became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (see James 1:13-15 below)
and in Romans 1:28 He said they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind...
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
The word here "castaway" is adokimos (Strong's G0096) which is: unapproved, worthless, castaway, rejected, reprobate
This is the same word "Reprobate" that is used in Romans 1:28 and goes hand in hand with Romans 8 that states if we walk after the flesh we shall die which is what Paul is referring to in 1 Corinthians 9:27 if he did not keep his body under subjection.
How a believer can die
(this was written to Christians cause, sinners out in the world are already dead...)
James 1:13-15
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Last edited:
I asked because you could be referencing Matthew 7 or Luke 13.
Please clarify which verse you reference when you indicate "some are told to depart because they are worker of iniquity" so that I may respond. Thank you.
In Romans 1:21, the word "knew" is the Greek word gnontes which means to perceive, be acquainted with. They have a natural knowledge of God as God is revealed in creation.
In Romans 1:28, it is clear that we are surrounded by people who do not want to retain God in their knowledge. They are the ones who revel in wickedness. The whole digression shown in Rom 1:21-32 begins with those who restrain (suppress) the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). Downward spiral from there as people move further and further from God and God has to give them up to more and more foolishness.
Here's a study I posted on these verses in Romans:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-causes-god-hide-his-face-17.html#post2941105
Please clarify which verse you reference when you indicate "some are told to depart because they are worker of iniquity" so that I may respond. Thank you.
In Romans 1:21, the word "knew" is the Greek word gnontes which means to perceive, be acquainted with. They have a natural knowledge of God as God is revealed in creation.
In Romans 1:28, it is clear that we are surrounded by people who do not want to retain God in their knowledge. They are the ones who revel in wickedness. The whole digression shown in Rom 1:21-32 begins with those who restrain (suppress) the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). Downward spiral from there as people move further and further from God and God has to give them up to more and more foolishness.
Here's a study I posted on these verses in Romans:
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-causes-god-hide-his-face-17.html#post2941105