Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

[Sagart]

If it is true that genuine, born again Christens cannot fall away from the Christian faith and lose their salvation, the New Testament was so very poorly written that the Early Church Fathers whom God chose to establish the New Testament Canon and to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity could not understand even the doctrine of salvation.

If it is true that genuine, born again Christens cannot fall away from the Christian faith and lose their salvation, the New Testament was so very poorly written that no one could understand it till the 16th century.

If the New Testament was so very poorly written that no one could understand it till the 16th century, we have no assurance of any kind that it is correctly understood by anyone today.

If the New Testament was so very poorly written that no one could understand it till the 16th century, the New Testament is not the word of God, but the words of dingbats with ridiculously poor writing skills.

If the New Testament is the words of dingbats with ridiculously poor writing skills rather than the word of God, it is not a reliable source of truth.

But—the entire Bible is the word of God, and the New Testament was so very well written that the doctrine of salvation regarding the believer’s conditional security was universally understood till the 16th century when a pernicious new and novel doctrine was introduced to the Church and accepted as true by many Christians. Nonetheless, the large majority of Christians have, down to the present day, continued to correctly understand the doctrine of salvation regarding the believer’s conditional security as found in the New Testament—testifying to the New Testament being the word of God.

 

[Rockrz]

Actually, "knew" in Romans 1:21 is ginosko -- pronounced: ghin-oce'-ko

allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) know(-ledge), perceived, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

... so that I may respond

You've already made up your mind so nobody is stopped you from responding in your efforts to try and prove OSAS is true even though it's not.

Here, try this one on for size...

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Here, Jesus is telling us that those who overcome will be clothed in white and those people that overcome will not be blotted of the book of life and Jesus will confess those people before His Father and His angels

Overcome is speaking of those that walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh as the Lord taught us in Romans 8

But, none the less OSAS will do what OSAS always does... attempts to deceive people which God foretold would happen in the end times which is why we have so many seeker sensitive, false grace teachers on TV

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Actually, "knew" in Romans 1:21 is ginosko -- pronounced: ghin-oce'-ko

allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) know(-ledge), perceived, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

In the text, the word "knew" in Rom 1:21 is γνόντες (gnontes).

Ginōskō is γινώσκω.


Gnontes = γνόντες

Ginōskō = γινώσκω


Do you see the difference?

You have come away with an understanding of Romans 1:21-28 never intended by God. I pray you will now teach this section correctly. Otherwise, you'll find your works burned as stated in 1 Cor 3:15. Not to worry, though. You'll still be saved because God is not Who you make Him out to be.

... so that I may respond

You've already made up your mind so nobody is stopped you from responding in your efforts to try and prove OSAS is true even though it's not.

If anyone has made up his mind, it's the one who will not provide Scripture reference in order that others may reply to your point.


And fyi, I read Scripture and believe God is more capable of keeping me from falling than I am of keeping myself from falling. I rest in Him and His abilities, His promises, His continuous watching over me, guiding my footsteps so that I do not end up straying from His path. However, if I do stumble off the path, I trust in my Lord Jesus Christ to come find me, bind my wounded heart, lift me up on His shoulders, and carry me back.

 

[valiant]

If it is true that genuine, born again Christens cannot fall away from the Christian faith and lose their salvation, the New Testament was so very poorly written that the Early Church Fathers whom God chose to establish the New Testament Canon and to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity could not understand even the doctrine of salvation.

It was not that the New Testament was poorly written, but that the early church did not have personal copies for each Christian, so that, for example, they did not understand the teaching of Romans. After the Apostles died they had no one to correct them except persons whose knowledge of the New Testament Scriptures was limited.


The earliest church grew up with only small parts of the New Testament and after Paul's death revealed their lack of understanding even of justification by faith (eg Clement of Rome) as expounded in Romans. For the most part their only Scriptures were the Old Testament. Their doctrine followed suit.

Thus the doctrine of their security in Christ was not generally understood by ill taught leaders who had minimal Scriptures to go on, and by the third century was not part of general teaching. Indeed they gradually produced the Roman Catholic church as we know. It was only due to God's grace that the church survived.

It was only when the Scriptures were opened up by the printing press and the reformation that people were able to study the Scriptures in depth, and discover for themselves what the earliest church had been taught by the Apostles..

If it is true that genuine, born again Christens cannot fall away from the Christian faith and lose their salvation, the New Testament was so very poorly written that no one could understand it till the 16th century.

No the earliest church knew it from the teaching of the Apostles.

If the New Testament was so very poorly written that no one could understand it till the 16th century, we have no assurance of any kind that it is correctly understood by anyone today.

LOL for many centuries the Bible was forbidden to ordinary people.

But—the entire Bible is the word of God, and the New Testament was so very well written that the doctrine of salvation regarding the believer’s conditional security was universally understood till the 16th century when a pernicious new and novel doctrine was introduced to the Church and accepted as true by many Christians.

I presume you don't know church history? Most believed what the Roman Catholic church taught them. Until 16 th century very few read the Bible,

Nonetheless, the large majority of Christians have, down to the present day, continued to correctly understand the doctrine of salvation regarding the believer’s conditional security as found in the New Testament—testifying to the New Testament being the word of God.

Jesus clearly did not understand it in that case lol For He declared the doctrine of the absolute security of the Christian in Him (John 6.39; 10.28-29).

 

[Grace777x70]

It doesn't take long for the gospel to be contaminated by those that think we need to do works ( which the law is an example of and is a product of self-effort in maintaining and creating righteousness - which all works-based belief systems are build upon )

Even in the midst of the original apostles that were with the Lord - this belief of "works" was being put forth and contaminating the gospel.

All works-based belief systems are built from the very same fruit of unbelief in Christ's finished work on the cross.

Acts 21:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

[SUP]21 [/SUP] and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

Paul even after preaching Christ and Him crucified to the Galatians believed the Judaizers that came to say " you must do something else other than just believe in Jesus to be saved." That only took a year for the gospel to be watered down and contaminated.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It doesn't take long for the gospel to be contaminated by those that think we need to do works ( which the law is an example of and is a product of self-effort in maintaining and creating righteousness - which all works-based belief systems are build upon )

Even in the midst of the original apostles that were with the Lord - this belief of "works" was being put forth and contaminating the gospel.

All works-based belief systems are built from the very same fruit of unbelief in Christ's finished work on the cross.

Acts 21:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

[SUP]21 [/SUP]and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

Paul even after preaching Christ and Him crucified to the Galatians believed the Judaizers that came to say " you must do something else other than just believe in Jesus to be saved." That only took a year for the gospel to be watered down and contaminated.

There is nothing wrong with good works, in and of themselves. Eph 2:10 tells us we have been created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them (good works).

The problem comes about when we believe our salvation is maintained by these good works.

The good works come about because we have been saved.

The good works do not come about so that we can be (or continue to be) saved.

 

[Stephen63]

In the text, the word "knew" in Rom 1:21 is γνόντες (gnontes).

Ginōskō is γινώσκω.


Gnontes = γνόντες

Ginōskō = γινώσκω


Do you see the difference?

Nice little show you put on there..... Gnostes is a transliteration of Ginosko.

Rockrz was correct.

How edumacated do you look now?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Nice little show you put on there..... Gnostes is a transliteration of Ginosko.

Well, let's just look at how both words are used in Scripture:

gnontes – used five times in Scripture

Mark 6:38 He saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? go and see. And when they knew gnontes, they say, Five, and two fishes.

The disciples ascertained gnontes there were 5 loaves and 2 fishes.


Luke 9:11 And the people, when they knew it gnontes, followed him: and he received them, and spake unto them of the kingdom of God, and healed them that had need of healing.

The people became aware gnontes that Jesus was in the desert place belonging to Bethsaida.


Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God gnontes, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) are aware of God gnontes, not through an intimate relationship with Him as a born again believer, but because the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead (Rom 1:20).


Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived gnontes, the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

James, Cephas, and John observed, noticed, recognized the grace of God in the life of Paul.


Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God gnontes, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Here Paul is encouraging those who have been introduced to God to continue with Him and not turn back to weak and beggarly elements which will result in bondage.



ginōskō – used seven times in Scripture


Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know ginōskō not a man?

Mary questioned how she could become pregnant because she had not known a man intimately.


John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know ginōskō my sheep, and am known of mine.

Jesus intimately knows His sheep.


John 10:15 As the Father knoweth ginōskō me, even so know ginōskō I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

The Father and the Son know each other intimately.


John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know ginōskō them, and they follow me:

Again, Jesus intimately knows His sheep.


Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know ginōskō, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

Interesting, the evil spirit ginōskō the Lord Jesus Christ. The evil Spirit epistamai Paul.


Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow ginōskō not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Paul did things he knew ginōskō were not allowed under the law. Paul knew the law thoroughly. He had a very detailed knowledge of the law.


1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know ginōskō in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Right now, we know ginōskō only in part. When we see face to face, we will epiginōskō. The intimate knowledge we have of Father, of our Lord Jesus Christ, of ourselves now and in this lifetime will be intensified once we see face to face.(very cool!)



John Murray interprets the use of gnontes in Romans 1:21 as "cognitive perception." (The Epistle to the Romans [Eerdmans, 1959, 1965; reprint 1997], 41):

The knowledge of God must in this context be the knowledge derived from the manifestation given in the visible creation. It is of this manifestation the apostle is speaking and it is this manifestation that is stated in verse 20 to leave men without excuse. Therefore the cognitive perception elicited from the manifestation of God’s glory in the visible creation is spoken of as “knowing God”

John Murray (1898 – 1975) was born in Scotland, was educated in Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Princeton, and spent most of his distinguished career teaching systematic theology at Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.



Are you "educamated" now concerning the difference between gnontes and ginōskō? Do you need further instruction?

 

[Rockrz]

You have come away with an understanding of Romans 1:21-28 never intended by God

Actually, I haven't seeing some greek comes from the liberal manuscript where they treat God's Word like liberals treat the Constitution... they change things around to fit their views not being true to original intent.

This does not change all the other scriptures that teach it's possible to fall away from the Lord as well as numerous warnings the Lord gives on this subject.

You know, the Book of Hebrews was written to Jewish converts warning them that if they left faith in Christ and went back to the law they would not be saved.

Here's one you cannot explain away that was written to Christians that specifically say it's possible to be condemned with the world:

1 Corinthians 11:31-32
For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged
But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Goes hand in hand with:

Hebrews 12:8
But if ye are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then are ye bastards and not sons

 

[Rockrz]

ginōskō – used seven times in Scripture

It's also used here...

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Here's one you cannot explain away that was written to Christians that specifically say it's possible to be condemned with the world:

1 Corinthians 11:31-32
For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged
But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Actually the verse tells us that God chastens His children so that we will not be condemned with the world.


God does not chasten those who are not His children. Those who are not His children will face judgment in due time.

Goes hand in hand with:

Hebrews 12:8
But if ye are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then are ye bastards and not sons

Right. God chastens His children. God does not chasten those who are not His children (referred to as "illegitimate" in the verse).


In Romans 1:21-32 we are told that God gives them over or gives them up to worse and worse behavior as the unbeliever continues to turn from God.


The believer who is chastened by the Lord experience the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby (Heb 12:11) and are partakers of his holiness (Heb 12:10).

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It's also used here...

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

That is the Greek word ginōskōsin and that is the only use of the word in Scripture.


I would also like to clarify that in Post #368, I should have shown John 10:15 as follows:


John 10:15 As the Father knoweth ginōskei me, even so know ginōskō I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep


Apologies for the confusion.

 

[FranC]

Actually, "knew" in Romans 1:21 is ginosko -- pronounced: ghin-oce'-ko

allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) know(-ledge), perceived, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.





You've already made up your mind so nobody is stopped you from responding in your efforts to try and prove OSAS is true even though it's not.

Here, try this one on for size...

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Here, Jesus is telling us that those who overcome will be clothed in white and those people that overcome will not be blotted of the book of life and Jesus will confess those people before His Father and His angels

Overcome is speaking of those that walk in the Spirit and not after the flesh as the Lord taught us in Romans 8

But, none the less OSAS will do what OSAS always does... attempts to deceive people which God foretold would happen in the end times which is why we have so many seeker sensitive, false grace teachers on TV

Look at you Rock !!

How nice you are.
And you even make intelligent comments.
Not those crazy ones like you make to me.

See. You've missed a lot of good conversation with me because it looks like we agree on everything.

I guess it's your hated of Catholics that kept this from happening.

Too bad --- it would have been nice to talk to you.

BTW, try to love all your brothers in Christ.
Doctrine may be wrong, but remember that it's not doctrine that saves us, Jesus does.

 

[FranC]

Actually, I haven't seeing some greek comes from the liberal manuscript where they treat God's Word like liberals treat the Constitution... they change things around to fit their views not being true to original intent.

This does not change all the other scriptures that teach it's possible to fall away from the Lord as well as numerous warnings the Lord gives on this subject.

You know, the Book of Hebrews was written to Jewish converts warning them that if they left faith in Christ and went back to the law they would not be saved.

Here's one you cannot explain away that was written to Christians that specifically say it's possible to be condemned with the world:

1 Corinthians 11:31-32
For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged
But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

Goes hand in hand with:

Hebrews 12:8
But if ye are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then are ye bastards and not sons

I leave but wish to encourage you first. You're very good at this.

I'd like to make the following comments to encourage and second your beliefs:

1. It's not necessary to know any Greek to understand the bible.
KNOW meand KNOW.

When did Joseph KNOW Mary? So it means a little more than "know", so what. It still means to know. §The translators knew koinè Greek, I think, better than those here who make believe they do just so they could make verses say what they want them to say.


2. It's necessary to twist scripture around to make it fit what some falsely believe. If they just read it, they'd understand it.
Not good. Better to believe a man who came along 1,500 years after Jesus died, than those who taught just after His time, and even knew one of the Apostles, and possible more. They taught loss of salvation, of course.

OSAS has to be the most demonic doctrine out there.
All one has to do is walk up to an altar ONCE, and he'll be saved forever.
I still haven't seen any scripture regarding this. The sealing of the Holy §Spirit is a favorite. Envelopes can be unsealed.
We are sealed ONLY AS LONG as we stay with the Lord.

It also teaches that once saved, we lose our free will and God literally forces us to stay with Him.

It also teaches that one could go back to a life of sin, as in Corinthians, for example (1) and STILL BE SAVED.

This is preposterous.

So, I'm outta here.
Keep up the good work.

 

[PeterJens]

I think the idea of loosing ones salvation is probably the wrong way of describing our
hearts in the Lord.

Can we end up rebelling though once we desired to walk until the end?

The answer to this puzzle is once you start a project do you know you will finish it
until you finish it? The proof is in the finishing not in the strength of intention.

I heard a story of this good christian man, went to church, had a wife, good life
then won the lottery. No more wife, no more nice life, he just let rip. It was all
a compromise, but not his dream. When the dream came true, his real desires came
out.

The real problem is sometimes dreams corrupt us and destroys the good within our
souls. One chink, one minor point can flaw it all. Pride, bitterness, envy, insecurity,
greed, covetousness. I have seen pride take a believer into rebellion and saying hell
was ok, he was not going to forgive or back down. It took a 5 minute argument with
his son to flip him. And this lasted 1 year in rebellion. Until I saw it, I would have never
believed it was possible.

 

[Stephen63]

Well, let's just look at how both words are used in Scripture:

gnontes – used five times in Scripture

Mark 6:38 He saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? go and see. And when they knew gnontes, they say, Five, and two fishes.

The disciples ascertained gnontes there were 5 loaves and 2 fishes.


Luke 9:11 And the people, when they knew it gnontes, followed him: and he received them, and spake unto them of the kingdom of God, and healed them that had need of healing.

The people became aware gnontes that Jesus was in the desert place belonging to Bethsaida.


Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God gnontes, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Those who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) are aware of God gnontes, not through an intimate relationship with Him as a born again believer, but because the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead (Rom 1:20).


Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived gnontes, the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.

James, Cephas, and John observed, noticed, recognized the grace of God in the life of Paul.


Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God gnontes, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Here Paul is encouraging those who have been introduced to God to continue with Him and not turn back to weak and beggarly elements which will result in bondage.



ginōskō – used seven times in Scripture


Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know ginōskō not a man?

Mary questioned how she could become pregnant because she had not known a man intimately.


John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know ginōskō my sheep, and am known of mine.

Jesus intimately knows His sheep.


John 10:15 As the Father knoweth ginōskō me, even so know ginōskō I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep

The Father and the Son know each other intimately.


John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know ginōskō them, and they follow me:

Again, Jesus intimately knows His sheep.


Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know ginōskō, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

Interesting, the evil spirit ginōskō the Lord Jesus Christ. The evil Spirit epistamai Paul.


Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow ginōskō not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Paul did things he knew ginōskō were not allowed under the law. Paul knew the law thoroughly. He had a very detailed knowledge of the law.


1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know ginōskō in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Right now, we know ginōskō only in part. When we see face to face, we will epiginōskō. The intimate knowledge we have of Father, of our Lord Jesus Christ, of ourselves now and in this lifetime will be intensified once we see face to face.(very cool!)



John Murray interprets the use of gnontes in Romans 1:21 as "cognitive perception." (The Epistle to the Romans [Eerdmans, 1959, 1965; reprint 1997], 41):



John Murray (1898 – 1975) was born in Scotland, was educated in Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Princeton, and spent most of his distinguished career teaching systematic theology at Westminster Theological Seminary, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.



Are you "educamated" now concerning the difference between gnontes and ginōskō? Do you need further instruction?

Strike at the image of highness, & they will retaliate with supremacy. They can't help it, it's who they are.

It's all about the attitude.....

 

[reneweddaybyday]

1. It's not necessary to know any Greek to understand the Bible. KNOW meand KNOW.

When did Joseph KNOW Mary? So it means a little more than "know", so what. It still means to know.

Actually in the Greek there is a difference between gnontes and ginōskō even though in English both words are translated KNOW.


The fact that gnontes is derived from ginōskō does not mean gnontes has the same meaning as ginōskō as you and/or Rockrz are trying to infer.


Think of a famous person you "know". You may know of this person through media, you may know where he/she lives, you may know what he/she likes to eat, you may know his/her habits, etc. But you have never met this person.


Same with those in Rom 1:21 who "know" of God because (as is stated in Rom 1:20) the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead.


So, yes, the person described in Rom 1:21 can be acquainted with God through observing creation and Scripture describes this person as he/she "knew" God.


This is not the same as the believer who comes to know God as Father and who wants to please Him because they love Him so much that to disappoint Him cuts their heart.


So please take the time to find out what is the difference between gnontes and ginōskō. Because there is a difference and you love God enough to find out what that difference is.

 

[FranC]

Actually in the Greek there is a difference between gnontes and ginōskō even though in English both words are translated KNOW.


The fact that gnontes is derived from ginōskō does not mean gnontes has the same meaning as ginōskō as you and/or Rockrz are trying to infer.


Think of a famous person you "know". You may know of this person through media, you may know where he/she lives, you may know what he/she likes to eat, you may know his/her habits, etc. But you have never met this person.


Same with those in Rom 1:21 who "know" of God because (as is stated in Rom 1:20) the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead.


So, yes, the person described in Rom 1:21 can be acquainted with God through observing creation and Scripture describes this person as he/she "knew" God.


This is not the same as the believer who comes to know God as Father and who wants to please Him because they love Him so much that to disappoint Him cuts their heart.


So please take the time to find out what is the difference between gnontes and ginōskō. Because there is a difference and you love God enough to find out what that difference is.

I don't want to be misunderstood.
If I know God, as you stated, what difference does it make whether or not I know what know means?

Do you have any initials after your name?
Where did you study Greek?

It's not necessary to know Greek to understand the salvific message of the NT.

I make a point of this because many TRY to use this to change the meaning of verses, but, alas, it does not work.

The Bible says what it means because the translators DO have initials after their name!

 

[Rockrz]

The believer who is chastened by the Lord experience the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby (Heb 12:11) and are partakers of his holiness (Heb 12:10).

Yes, and some believers do not accept His correction and fall away...

That is the Greek word ginōskōsin and that is the only use of the word in Scripture.

That's from the liberal manuscript... it's actually ginōskō

God is not saying we should just know about Him... He wants to be ONE with us.

Religion cannot handle that cause... they ain't ONE with Him cause of their unbelief and rejection of scripture.

The fact that gnontes is derived from ginōskō does not mean gnontes has the same meaning as ginōskō as you and/or Rockrz are trying to infer.

Thanks for that erroneous opinion... just like in english definitions, the so called "scholars" differ on some points so in the end we will see that the definition for ginōskō is what the Lord was talkin 'bout

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Strike at the image of highness, & they will retaliate with supremacy. They can't help it, it's who they are.

Seriously? You learned nothing from the study?

We all have our place within the body of our Lord Jesus Christ. Mine happens to be different than yours. Doesn't mean I retaliated. It just means a point was brought to my attention and I searched it out.

fyi … I am a researcher. That's what I do. Color me different. Fine by me --- I'm still part of the body of Christ.

It's all about the attitude.....

Your attitude reminds me that sometimes it's best to just remain silent and not engage in efforts to slur a brother/sister in Christ.