Word of Faith - a Look at what the Bible says!

[Denadii]

Running low on Dodge?

Well That'll do but I prefer Ford...LOL

 

[samuel23]

The movement that is called Word of Faith is a corrupted movement, of course we live by faith, and God is still God today. I have faith in God and I believe that it is possible for us to be healed, however it is not guaranteed for every single person. I used to be part of the WOF movement until I begin to really look at what they teach, they are very much after the things of this present world. Also, they take things that were promised to the nation of Israel in the OT and apply them to themselves. Things such as supernatural health and wealth.

 

[preacher4truth]

The movement that is called Word of Faith is a corrupted movement, of course we live by faith, and God is still God today. I have faith in God and I believe that it is possible for us to be healed, however it is not guaranteed for every single person. I used to be part of the WOF movement until I begin to really look at what they teach, they are very much after the things of this present world. Also, they take things that were promised to the nation of Israel in the OT and apply them to themselves. Things such as supernatural health and wealth.

I am glad God brought you out of that error! Their false gospel offers what the world offers - bow to covetous idolatry and worship that false idol. "You cannot serve God and mammon..." Matthew 6:24.

 

[Issachar92]

Great post sister Angela I gave you rep for this.

 

[preacher4truth]

I thought we weren't suppose to attack other denominations?

Exposing errors in false teachings is what happened in the OP. But when a person wants to go for the "emotional plea" in order to draw ire for standing for truth, they call it "an attack." This is a reverse assault on the truth and upon those who stand for it.

(Just making a point, I realize this poster is gone)

 

[sevenseas]

so sad. so very very sad.

there are members here that NEVER have ANYTHING uplifting or positive or encouraging to say to anyone

they make it their business to denigrade, put down and basically attempt to bully everyone who does not agree with their
LORDSHIP SALVATION MacArthur teaching. that alone is a huge red flag because no one is 100% right 100% of the time

FOR THE RECORD, I AM NOT WOF AND IF DO NOT AGREE WITH WOF, ESPECIALLY THE EXTREME TEACHINGS

but I also do not agree with this constant I AM RIGHT AND YOU ARE WRONG THEOLOGY PRESENTED BY p4t and certain others here

LORDSHIP SALVATION has as many errors as WOF on the flip side of the coin

 

[samuel23]

Hi Seven: I guess I do not understand your post, what is LORDSHIP teaching? Most folks that post think they are right, the person that made a big fuss about the original statement believes she is right and the OP wrong.

 

[Iamlearning]

Another basic reason why healing is not included in the atonement is simple. Christ died to atone for our sins. We are saved when we believe this. We are never accused in the Bible of not having enough faith or doubting our salvation, if we believe Christ died on the cross for our sins.

But neither healing, nor prosperity is included in the atonement, or it would indeed have to be perfect healing, and every Christian a rich person, from the time they are saved. I think there are enough testimonies on the other thread, including my own concerning how people are not always healed, and how God uses that for good.


So again – we are saved when we believe in the atonement. I would hope that this is generally agreed upon, no matter what their denominational background.

BUT, we are not automatically healed, nor do we automatically become rich when we believe in the atonement. The atonement is about sin, not healing or riches.

""So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10"

I should tatoo this on my forehead definitely.

 

[BeyondET]

If you wish to talk about opinions, please see the other thread which is going on right now. I want to keep this thread to discuss what the BIBLE says about the Word Faith teaching, and why the Bible says it is wrong.

Again, another copy and paste of something I already wrote, coming from a pamphlet called The Disease of the Health and Wealth Gospel by Gordon D. Fee. Gordon Fee is one of the top Bible and Greek scholars in the world. He is also Pentecostal, believes in healing and the gifts of the Spirit. But he does NOT believe in the distorted exegesis of the Bible, and how Health and Wealth teachers have twisted the Bible, as evident from so many posts in this thread.

As far as wealth, Gordon Fee doesn't have a kind word to say about it. It is totally a false doctrine. Having met numerous people who were fleeced by these evil men who preach unconditional wealth, it is not Biblical. I will not deal with it here, although if anyone wants to talk about it, in terms of what the Bible says, please feel free to post Bible verses on it. I do not believe in this false prosperity gospel and I would be willing to post the Scriptures that explain why. (I am NOT saying that God doesn't bless us, but again, it is not part of the atonement or the Bible!)


Regarding healing, Fee titles this chapter "The 'Gospel' of Perfect Health." First, he notes that physical and mental healing of human life is part of the redemptive activity of God. He believes in prayer for the sick, as I do! Christians are subject to decay and death in this present age, and healing is God's gracious activity in the body healed and is a sign of the future already at work in this present age.

If healing is supported by both the Bible and theology and praying in faith for the gracious healing of the sick, then where is the problem? What is the "disease" nature of the "gospel" of total health for Christians?

There are basically some biblical and theological distortions which insist:

1. that God wills perfect health and complete healing for every believer

2. that God has obligated Himself to heal every sickness for those who have faith (unless the sickness is a result of breaking God's "health" laws.)

Integral to this theology is the insistence that faith can "claim" such healing from God, and that any failure to be healed is not the fault of God, but of the one who has not had enough faith. Very often "claiming" healing means to "confess" it as done, even though the symptoms persists.

So the answer to why people are not healed, who have faith, has to lie not in the actual words of the Bible or God himself, but in the way the Bible is being interpreted. As with many half-truths, the "gospel" of perfect health sees to base itself on Scripture. However, the evangelists interpretation is faulty for the following reasons:

1. some poor, or flat-out wrong interpretations of key texts
2. some selective use of texts,
3. a failure to have a wholistic biblical view of things, and especially a failure to understand the essential theological framework of the New Testament writers.

As a result, they tend to repeat the Corinthian error and are unable to hear Paul's answers in 1 and 2 Corinthians as over and against themselves, although these evangelists are unwitting descendants of the false apostles of 2 Cor. 10-13!

"So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong." 2 Cor. 12:7-10


Basic hermeneutics demands the following things:

The aim of all biblical interpretation is the "plain meaning" of the text. This is the "original meaning", that the author plainly intended and that the original readers plainly understood. The Bible is indeed a book for all seasons, because it speaks directly out of our past to our present situation, it does so because it first spoke to them in their situation.

Therefore, the first task of interpretation is NOT to find out what it says to us, but what it originally said to them. God's Word to us is not a new word, never before discovered; rather it must be the very same word he originally spoke back there and then. This is the only legitimate Word to be heard in Scripture.

All this must be insisted upon, because the basic Biblical failure of the "perfect health" evangelists is the interpretation of their primary texts. They simply fail to do adequate exegesis which has to do with determining the meaning of the text in original context.


The arguments for perfect health as God's will for all believers are based on three sets of texts

a. Paul's statement that "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law" Gal 3:14, coupled with Deuteronomy 28:21-22 where disease is one of the curses for disobedience of the law.

"The Lord will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. 22 The Lord will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish." Debt. 28:21-22

It is argued from these texts that sickness is a part of the curse of the law, from which Christ redeemed us from.

b. Isa. 53 and the citation of Isa. 53:4 in Matt 8:17 and Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24. It is argued from these texts, especially from the change to the past tense in 1 Peter that healing is in the atonement in the same way as forgiveness. (Something that Undergrace has been ably defending!)

c. A whole host of texts that remind us that God honours faith eg. Matt 9:29, Mark 11:23-24, John 14:12; Hebrews 11:6; James 1:6-8


The first set of texts, (a above) can be quickly set aside. This is a typical example of a totally faulty "concordance" interpretation, which finds English "catch" words in various texts and then tries to make them all refer to the same thing. There is not even the remotest possibility that Paul was referring to the curses of Deuteronomy 28 when he spoke of "curse of the law." And "redemption" in Galatians has to do with one thing only - how does one have right standing with God - through faith (= trust in God's gracious acceptance and forgiveness for sinners), or by works of the law (=acceptance by obedience to prescribed rules)? Thus the Holy Spirit could scarcely have inspired a meaning of the text that is totally foreign to the point Paul is making in the context in Galatians.

It is also questionable whether one can rightly argue that the Bible teaches that healing is provided for in the atonement. Historic Pentecostalism does not see healing provided for in the atonement the same way as salvation. Healing is "provided for" because the "atonement brought release from the consequences of sin;" nevertheless, since "we have not yet received the redemption of our bodies" suffering and death are still our lot until the resurrection.


"Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all." Isa. 53:4-6

While there are many texts that show that our sin has been overcome by Christ's death and resurrection, there is in fact no text that that explicitly says the same thing about healing, not even Isaiah 53 and its NT citations.

Matthew's use of Isa. 53:4 does not even refer to the cross, rather the clearly sees the text being fulfilled in Jesus earthly ministry. This is made certain by both the context and by his choice of Greek verbs in his own unique translation of the Hebrew (ἔλαβεν or elaben = he took; ἐβάστασεν or ebastasen = he removed.)

"ὅπως πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν διὰ Ἠσαΐου τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος· Αὐτὸς τὰς ἀσθενείας ἡμῶν ἔλαβεν καὶ τὰς νόσους ἐβάστασεν." Matt 8:17 Greek

"This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “He took our illnesses and bore our diseases.” Matt 8:17 ESV

The citation of Isa. 53:5 in 1 Peter 2:24 on the other hand, does not refer to physical healing. The usage here is metaphorical, pure and simple! In context, in which slaves are urged to submit to their evil masters - even if it means suffering for it - Peter appeals to the example of Christ, which Christians slaves are to follow.

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24 ESV

This appeal to Christ, beginning at verse 21, is filling with allusions and to citations of Isa. 53 all of which refers to Christ's having suffered unjustly as the source of the slave's redemption from sin. Thus Peter says:

"He himself bore our wounds" (Isa. 53:12) "that we might die to sin."

"By his wounds you have been healed" (Isa. 53:5) FOR you were as sheep going astray. (Isa. 53:6)

The allusions to both verses 5 and 6, joined by FOR (coordinate Conjunction) and referring to "sheep going astray" plus the change to the past tense, all make it abundantly clear that "healing" here is a metaphor for being restored to health from "the sickness of their sins!"

Such a metaphorical use would be natural for Peter, since sin as "wound" "injury" or "sickness" and the "healing" or such "sickness" are thorough going images in the Old Testament. See 2 Chron. 7:14; Psalm 6:2; Isaiah 1:5-6; Jerem. 30:12-13, 52:8-9; Nahum 3:19)

Furthermore , the Old Testament citations in 1 Peter rather closely follow the Septuagint (LXX or Greek translation of the OT) even when this translation differed from the Hebrew; and the Septuagint had ALREADY translated Isa. 53:4 metaphorically!

"He himself bore our sins" rather than "our sicknesses." I am sure Peter knew both versions and chose the LXX because he knew it was a better version for NT believers and their understanding of Isa. 53:4.

So my point!

Matt clearly saw Isa. 53:4 as referring to physical healing, but as a part of the Messiah's ministry, not the atonement. Peter, conversely, saw the "healing" in Isa. 53 as being metaphorical and thus referring to the healing of our sin sickness. Neither NT reference to healing sees the "healing" in Isa. 53 as referring to physical healing in the atonement.

But what did Isaiah himself intend??

The first reference is certainly metaphorical as the Septuagint, the Targums and Peter recognize. Israel was diseased! She was grievously wounded for her sins (Isa 1:6-7) Yet God would restore his people. There would come one who himself would suffer so as to deliver. Isaiah says of the Messiah "The punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed." Since physical disease was clearly recognized as a consequence of the Fall, such a metaphor could also pick up the literal sense and that is what Matthew picked up on.

The Bible therefore does, not explicitly teach that healing is provided for in the atonement. However, the NT does see the cross as the focus of God's redemptive activity.

As far as part c above, ultimately, these rely on a wrong interpretation that healing is part of the atonement. The argument for perfect health, or healing on demand, lies in the joining of healing to the atonement as the basis for demand, and therefore if God has provided for it, he must therefore heal on demand.

Since in fact, there is no connection of the atonement to healing, God is not obligated to provide healing on demand, although I do believe he heals when people pray and it is His will to heal, that he might be glorified.


Jesus has come to save you from your sins. That you can be sure of. God is real. But televangelist, Word Faith prophets, not at all! If you start reading the Bible from cover to cover, over and over yearly or more, you will get a very different theology than these sharks and false prophets paint. I urge everyone to get out a modern translation like ESV or HCSB and read it over and over again. That was part of what helped me heal - just reading the Word of God - in context, and fully! I've read the Bible over 40 times straight through, and most of the NT in Greek and much of the OT in Hebrew. (And the entire bible in French!) I assure you, there is nothing more glorious than feeding on the Word of God. God will minister to you daily as you seek his revealed Word in the Bible, rather than with internet preachers and false prophets.

Here is the verse God gave me that healed my soul in more than one way. It appears in Paul's chapter on justification, and that we all suffer - we live in a fallen world. It has comforted me more times than you can imagine!

"Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Romans 5:3-5

huh interesting stuff for sure, I agree it's up to God,

I wonder about the protection Jesus provided when He descended into the big furnace in the OT and protected three men from injuries. huh even the king seems to have seen the Son of God before.

 

[sevenseas]

Hi Seven: I guess I do not understand your post, what is LORDSHIP teaching? Most folks that post think they are right, the person that made a big fuss about the original statement believes she is right and the OP wrong.

Hi Samuel

did you understand what I was saying about the constant negativity?

the constant putdowns and bullying?

that is the actual reason for the post

are you aware of how many people have left the forums, even long time members, because of the constant arguing and bullying?

I think it's fine to discuss what we disagree with, decently, but when it is accompanied by bullying and name calling and downright nastiness, it needs to stop and frankly, that is not acceptable for Christians to do

this is an old thread that has been resurrected to continue with a subject that has been talked to death

there are certain posters here that NEVER EVER have ANYTHING positive to say unless it is about themselves

 

[samuel23]

Hi Seven: When I first started in Christian forums I must admit that I was blown away by the way some professing Christians would write to me and others. I have posted things(not necessarily here) as benign as "what a lovely day" and have been attacked as a heretic. Also there is a difference between standing resolute for the truth and just being nasty with people. If we are absolutely certain of a scriptural truth we should not waver, however we should always try to be respectful.

 

[sevenseas]

Hi Seven: When I first started in Christian forums I must admit that I was blown away by the way some professing Christians would write to me and others. I have posted things(not necessarily here) as benign as "what a lovely day" and have been attacked as a heretic. Also there is a difference between standing resolute for the truth and just being nasty with people. If we are absolutely certain of a scriptural truth we should not waver, however we should always try to be respectful.

well that is just my point

I do not think that people who are that nasty present any sort of witness for Christ

they seem far more involved with correcting everyone and making sure everyone knows they are the only ones who are right. no one is always right and certainly not people who put teachers on a pedestal

anyway, thanks for your response

 

[Denadii]

The movement that is called Word of Faith is a corrupted movement, of course we live by faith, and God is still God today. I have faith in God and I believe that it is possible for us to be healed, however it is not guaranteed for every single person. I used to be part of the WOF movement until I begin to really look at what they teach, they are very much after the things of this present world. Also, they take things that were promised to the nation of Israel in the OT and apply them to themselves. Things such as supernatural health and wealth.

Ok I'll not argue about your faith Samuel...I do have to ask though...1 How is it faith in Gods Word to say that healing is not guaranteed for everyone? Where does the bible say that? 2 Don't you know that as seed of Abraham you are entitled to everything in every covenant God made with His people? Do you know anything about covenant at all? I ask this, not to slam you but you MUST know your covenants to live in covenant with God.

I agree that not all WOF preachers preach accurate truth but not all ordinary preachers do either...WOF does not judge you. Why do you judge?

 

[Rockrz]

I think it's quite comical how carnal minded religious people who claim to be followers of Jesus... talk as though He lied sometimes as they do not understand that when God promises something or gives instructions, it is His Will!

This is one reason why people pray and do not get answers... cause the answer is already in God's Word.

If Jesus is one's Lord and Savior... why not believe what He says in His Word??? That's what He judges by is what He has already said and the instructions He has already given.

Some do not realize that both Jesus and Paul taught, acted on, and lives "the word of faith" which simply means to take God's Word in faith and act like it's true and one aspect of doing so is to speak words... cause we are created in God's image and He speaks Word and is responsible for them lest He be found to be a liar... we are also responsible for our words.

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned

Romans 10:8-10
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Salvation here of course includes getting born again, but the greek word here is "soteria" meaning deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.... so this means much more than just getting born again.

I understand... many reject some verses as not being of God so many will claim Romans 10:8-10 is not of God accusing God of lying in His Word or at least failing to prevent crazy people from putting verses in that are of the devil... which makes one wonder if these people have ever been born again because getting saved involves confessing Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior. Without this confession, one is just mentally agreeing which is not the prescription God gives in His Word for getting born again.

Here's one that many claim Jesus lied about just because some silly TV preachers use in error:

Mark 11:23,24
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Did you notice Jesus personally acted on what He said in versus 23... in verse 24 by saying: "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them"

Of course this is governed by not asking / saying to consume upon one's fleshly desires:

James 4:3
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

And, of course one must abide in Jesus and let the Word His Word abide in us so we are asking / saying the will of the Lord:

John 15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Yet, somehow many get all bent out of shape cause goofy TV preachers mention Mark 11:23,24 in their extreme views that have led them in to the ditch (while carnal minded religious people be all in the ditch on the other side thinking God steals, kills, and destroys)... and it's like they think Jesus lied when He said we could speak to the mountain (that in your live that is bigger than what you can handle) and expect the Lord to watch over His Word to perform it (Jeremiah 1:12) because it's impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18).

It's totally hilarious that some claim God's promises of being well physically, mentally, and emotionally are somehow invented by WOF preachers on TV who fly around in $64 million jets er something. God made these promises long before TV preachers started hording up money and bragging about it as they butter people up give give more in the offering and buy their books and DVDs.

One of the keys to understanding HOW to receive healing is to... tell sickness and disease that it cannot come upon your body because your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit

1 Corinthians 6:19,20
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Of course this is only applicable to those who dedicate their body to be a habitation for the Lord

Romans 12:1,2
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Now, when speaking to sickness / disease telling it "it is written" (you know... like Jesus did when satan tried to get Him to not honor the Word of the Lord)... one must do so based upon what God has promised concerning healing and understand that we will reap in due season if we do not give up (Galatians 6:9)

Here's a few promises the Lord has made for your health / healing:

Romans 8:11
But IF the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you (allowed to live in us), He that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead shall also quicken (energize, make alive) your mortal body by His Spirit that lives in you. (see 2 Corinthians 3:17 – where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, freedom!)

1 Peter 2:24
Jesus carried our sins in his own body on the cross, so that we, being dead to sin, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

Matthew 8:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Isaiah 53:4, 5
Jesus has carried our grief (pain, anxiety, calamity, disease, sickness), and carried our sorrows (anguish, affliction, feelings of pain, sadness and sorrow): yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted....but He was wounded (to wound, to break, be slain or killed) for our transgressions, He was bruised (crush, destroy, oppress, to collapse) for our iniquities: the punishment (violence, rebuke) of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. (He took our wounds, so we could take his wholeness & health in every area of life)

Proverbs 4:20-23
Attend to My words; incline your ear unto My sayings....let them not depart from your eyes; keep them in the midst of your heart....for they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh....keep your heart with all diligence; for out of it flow the forces of life.

James 5:15
The prayer of faith shall save the sick (from being sick!)

Exodus 15:26
If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will not put any diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

Exodus 23:24-26
You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do their works: but you shall utterly overthrow them, and destroy their images.
And you shall serve Adonai your God, and He shall bless your food and drink; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: and you will live out the full span of your lives.

 

[sevenseas]

you know, I am pretty sure that agreement with everyone elses' Christianity is NOT a part of our salvation

you would think that it is though

why can't people be allowed to practice what part of the entire truth (that NO ONE AT ALL WHATSOEVER NEVER EVER SINCE THE DAWN OF TIME AND BEYOND ever had in the current form in which they live) they have received by faith by the Holy Spirit without being attacked, maligned and told they are going to hell, are not saved, are a heretic, are a blasphemer and just an all around piece of dirt?

why are some so self righteous that they think everyone must believe just like them and by gum, they will hold your nose to their favorite scripture until you cry uncle?

it stinks people. really.

I have been to hell and back with certain beliefs and I have spent alot of time wrestling with God over some of them.

I have literally told Him I don't want certain gifts because of bad teaching, but even so, that does not deny the legitimacy of those gifts.

so many are intolerant of the fact that Christianity is not made up of them plus God. get over yourself

it's ok. God knows those who are His and what part of the journey they are on

God knows the heart. we don't know the heart.

and far too many don't know the difference and think they do.

so tiresome and ignorant and just downright not a good witness for the One you say you represent

 

[PeterJens]

I am sure if God spoke, everyone would want to correct Him.

Look at Peter. He loved Jesus, and Jesus was having a down day, saying he
was going to die on the cross. I mean, who would not want to gee up your friend.

Too often people get too close to doctrines and not enough to their hearts and
emotions. WOF have some good criticisms about how what we say matters, and speaking
out the will of God does bring it into effect. The problem is the will they are expressing is
so optimised it is seriously a problem.

Take a situation I am in. A husband of one of the member of our house group has a
growing tumour in their brain, medical intervention cannot resolve it, there heart is failing,
they are depressed and will probably live just a few years. Now they are surviving because
of medical support, but it is a kind of torture. How do you talk about Gods will here, other
than trauma, heart ache, and love and prayer. When we go round the room, we have high
blood pressure, cancer treatment, pain relief with massive withdrawal systems, asmatic attacks,
heart disease, pain attacks so cannot walk. And the longer people live the more dependent they
are on modern medicine.

Now what I see is love working through broken people, healing through pain and the weak becoming
strong in the Lord and despite it all rejoicing. Amen, for the blessing of understanding the weakness
of life.

 

[sevenseas]

Ok I'll not argue about your faith Samuel...I do have to ask though...1 How is it faith in Gods Word to say that healing is not guaranteed for everyone? Where does the bible say that? 2 Don't you know that as seed of Abraham you are entitled to everything in every covenant God made with His people? Do you know anything about covenant at all? I ask this, not to slam you but you MUST know your covenants to live in covenant with God.

I agree that not all WOF preachers preach accurate truth but not all ordinary preachers do either...WOF does not judge you. Why do you judge?

and you?

what are YOU doing?

are you a seed of Abraham or are you living in the NT?

don't confuse the two covenants. and by the way, I believe that Israel is still God's chosen people so I am not anti-Semitic but 'we are the seed of Abraham' was the constant cry of the Pharisees and not the way to salvation

we do not have the liberty to attack another's faith. YOUR faith will save no one

however, if Samuel has faith in Christ, then he is saved. has nothing to do with physical healing. they are separate issues

 

[sevenseas]

I am sure if God spoke, everyone would want to correct Him.

Look at Peter. He loved Jesus, and Jesus was having a down day, saying he
was going to die on the cross. I mean, who would not want to gee up your friend.

Too often people get too close to doctrines and not enough to their hearts and
emotions. WOF have some good criticisms about how what we say matters, and speaking
out the will of God does bring it into effect. The problem is the will they are expressing is
so optimised it is seriously a problem.

Take a situation I am in. A husband of one of the member of our house group has a
growing tumour in their brain, medical intervention cannot resolve it, there heart is failing,
they are depressed and will probably live just a few years. Now they are surviving because
of medical support, but it is a kind of torture. How do you talk about Gods will here, other
than trauma, heart ache, and love and prayer. When we go round the room, we have high
blood pressure, cancer treatment, pain relief with massive withdrawal systems, asmatic attacks,
heart disease, pain attacks so cannot walk. And the longer people live the more dependent they
are on modern medicine.

Now what I see is love working through broken people, healing through pain and the weak becoming
strong in the Lord and despite it all rejoicing. Amen, for the blessing of understanding the weakness
of life.

sadly true. in fact, false prophets speak in His name every day and many follow them

Too often people get too close to doctrines

you know, this may well be one of the truest statements ever made in these forums

 

[Gabriel2020]

Yes, but only a christian can work out their own salvation. A non believer has no salvation to work out. a believer works out the deliverance from the power and the effects of sin.

 

[Denadii]

I think it's quite comical how carnal minded religious people who claim to be followers of Jesus... talk as though He lied sometimes as they do not understand that when God promises something or gives instructions, it is His Will!

This is one reason why people pray and do not get answers... cause the answer is already in God's Word.

If Jesus is one's Lord and Savior... why not believe what He says in His Word??? That's what He judges by is what He has already said and the instructions He has already given.

Some do not realize that both Jesus and Paul taught, acted on, and lives "the word of faith" which simply means to take God's Word in faith and act like it's true and one aspect of doing so is to speak words... cause we are created in God's image and He speaks Word and is responsible for them lest He be found to be a liar... we are also responsible for our words.

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned

Romans 10:8-10
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Salvation here of course includes getting born again, but the greek word here is "soteria" meaning deliver, health, salvation, save, saving.... so this means much more than just getting born again.

I understand... many reject some verses as not being of God so many will claim Romans 10:8-10 is not of God accusing God of lying in His Word or at least failing to prevent crazy people from putting verses in that are of the devil... which makes one wonder if these people have ever been born again because getting saved involves confessing Jesus Christ as one's Lord and Savior. Without this confession, one is just mentally agreeing which is not the prescription God gives in His Word for getting born again.

Here's one that many claim Jesus lied about just because some silly TV preachers use in error:

Mark 11:23,24
For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Did you notice Jesus personally acted on what He said in versus 23... in verse 24 by saying: "Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them"

Of course this is governed by not asking / saying to consume upon one's fleshly desires:

James 4:3
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

And, of course one must abide in Jesus and let the Word His Word abide in us so we are asking / saying the will of the Lord:

John 15:7
If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Yet, somehow many get all bent out of shape cause goofy TV preachers mention Mark 11:23,24 in their extreme views that have led them in to the ditch (while carnal minded religious people be all in the ditch on the other side thinking God steals, kills, and destroys)... and it's like they think Jesus lied when He said we could speak to the mountain (that in your live that is bigger than what you can handle) and expect the Lord to watch over His Word to perform it (Jeremiah 1:12) because it's impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18).

It's totally hilarious that some claim God's promises of being well physically, mentally, and emotionally are somehow invented by WOF preachers on TV who fly around in $64 million jets er something. God made these promises long before TV preachers started hording up money and bragging about it as they butter people up give give more in the offering and buy their books and DVDs.

One of the keys to understanding HOW to receive healing is to... tell sickness and disease that it cannot come upon your body because your body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit

1 Corinthians 6:19,20
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Of course this is only applicable to those who dedicate their body to be a habitation for the Lord

Romans 12:1,2
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Now, when speaking to sickness / disease telling it "it is written" (you know... like Jesus did when satan tried to get Him to not honor the Word of the Lord)... one must do so based upon what God has promised concerning healing and understand that we will reap in due season if we do not give up (Galatians 6:9)

Here's a few promises the Lord has made for your health / healing:

Romans 8:11
But IF the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you (allowed to live in us), He that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead shall also quicken (energize, make alive) your mortal body by His Spirit that lives in you. (see 2 Corinthians 3:17 – where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty, freedom!)

1 Peter 2:24
Jesus carried our sins in his own body on the cross, so that we, being dead to sin, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

Matthew 8:17
That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Isaiah 53:4, 5
Jesus has carried our grief (pain, anxiety, calamity, disease, sickness), and carried our sorrows (anguish, affliction, feelings of pain, sadness and sorrow): yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted....but He was wounded (to wound, to break, be slain or killed) for our transgressions, He was bruised (crush, destroy, oppress, to collapse) for our iniquities: the punishment (violence, rebuke) of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed. (He took our wounds, so we could take his wholeness & health in every area of life)

Proverbs 4:20-23
Attend to My words; incline your ear unto My sayings....let them not depart from your eyes; keep them in the midst of your heart....for they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh....keep your heart with all diligence; for out of it flow the forces of life.

James 5:15
The prayer of faith shall save the sick (from being sick!)

Exodus 15:26
If you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in His sight, and will give ear to His commandments, and keep all His statutes, I will not put any diseases upon you, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

Exodus 23:24-26
You shall not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do their works: but you shall utterly overthrow them, and destroy their images.
And you shall serve Adonai your God, and He shall bless your food and drink; and I will take sickness away from the midst of you.
There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: and you will live out the full span of your lives.

Good post my friend You missed one very important verse though. I find that most people hate WOF preachers because it doesn't work for them...They claim to live by faith but their faith in God keeps His Word BUT. They always leave an out..Just in case they don't get what they beg for. There's one problem, they spend all of their prayer time begging for what is already theirs...Then comes the big thing....

FAITH WORKETH BY LOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One cannot go around chopping on other Christians, making them look like monsters from hell, and expect to get anything by faith...It says the JUST shall live by faith...Not the self righteous shall live by faith....And What is faith? Its simple trust that God means what He says.

In answer to another comment. I'll add it here.
I was raised a Romanist I believed all my life that Jesus died for my sins..My sins were atoned for. But I can tell you that I was NOT saved... I did get save though when I came to the belief in Him
Romans 10:9 (CJB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP]that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered.
Then I was saved! I believed in the atonement but was not saved until I proclaimed Jesus Lord of my life.