The Standard of Sinless Perfection

Chris1975 · May 24, 2017

The Standard of Sinless Perfection

We have read a myriad of to-and-fro answers from both camps in CC over this particular topic.
Let’s see some of the scriptures which grieve those who are against sinless perfection:

Romans 6v1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Romans 6v15 [SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
Romans 6v22-23 [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8v12-14 [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 John 3v4-9 [SUP]4 [/SUP]Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

ALL OF THIS IS WRITTEN TO THE CHURCH. Not to outsiders.

So the jackpot questions are these:

Is the above possible?
1. If you say “yes” – then you agree with the Word of God. For that (above) is what it says.
2. If you say “no” – then you are is denial about the Word of God. For the scriptures are plain to see.
If God has a Holy Standard, would it be sinless perfection, or something less?
1. If you say “sinless perfection” you agree that the Lord is Holy. Without Holiness Nobody will see the Lord. 1 Peter 1v15-16 [SUP]15 [/SUP]but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, [SUP]16 [/SUP]because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”[SUP][c][/SUP] Elsewhere it is written: Hebrews 12 [SUP]14 [/SUP]Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: [SUP]15 [/SUP]looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; and elsewhere it is written: Matthew 5v48 [SUP]48 [/SUP]Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
2. If you say something short of sinless perfection; you deny the Lord, for He is the essence of Holiness. He can never make the standard lower than perfection.

The Apostles Paul and John wrote the above scriptures under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They are truth. Now you are presented the opportunity to either accept them and ask the Lord to give you understanding, or reject them, and lose out the treasures of what the Lord God wants to reveal to you next. If you really want to press into Him, if you really want the overcoming life, then take the above scriptures as the Gospel truth. We are to rise to this standard, and not drag this down to man’s standard.

How is the above state achieved? How are we to live according to this standard?

The clues can also be found in Romans 6
Romans 6v3-11
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For he who has died has been freed from sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [SUP]9 [/SUP]knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The above is received by faith. It’s your faith in ACTION

Reckon yourself DEAD TO SIN
Reckon yourself ALIVE TO GOD IN CHRIST JESUS THE LORD

Here is the clue:

You can NEVER overcome sin unless you dethrone sin in your life by identifying your old man dead on the cross. Crucified with Christ (Gal 2v20). Pick up your cross daily (Luke 9v23).
You can NEVER live the resurrected life in Christ (living in the Spirit) unless you go through the cross and identify your new man alive in Christ. You are a new creation (2 Cor 5v17). Born again (1 John 5v4 ; John 3v3). Christ living in you (Gal 2v20)

If you tell yourself “It’s impossible to stop sinning” you by FAITH restore the power of Sin over your life. You re-enthrone Sin as your Master. Is that really what you want? It may be so, that that is what you want. But that’s not true Christianity. Christianity is not a democracy. There is a King. And this King is Lord. And He is Jesus Christ. And what He says, you should heed.

Now, the above being said, namely (A) God’s standard (B) How this is appropriated ----- let’s move onto (C) the Hope we have should we have to this point failed in heeding God’s word and a path back into His arms…….
In order to share with you the Hope which is found within the Word of God, it would be useful to look at the lives of Paul and John, who wrote most of the scriptures written above.

Paul

Question: Did Paul live the very standard that he wrote above? Or was he a Hypocrite? Or is there a truth which can be gleaned from the above passages when comparing this to other scriptures which Paul wrote? Let’s see below:

Philippians 3 [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, [SUP]11 [/SUP]if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, [SUP]14 [/SUP]I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[SUP][b][/SUP] let us be of the same mind. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: [SUP]19 [/SUP]whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]21 [/SUP]who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Now from the above passages we see a clear link between Romans 6 (the Holy Standard) and Philippians 3 (Paul’s walk with the Lord)
Paul references the conformity of His death with Christ (Phil 3v10 and Romans 6 v5,6,8) as well as the resurrection life (Phil 3v10,11 and Romans 6 v5,8)
Paul lives this by FAITH, yet he says he has not yet already attained (v12) or perfected (v12) or apprehended (v13)
YET ---- Paul doesn’t let this hold him back. He doesn’t bring down God’s standard AT ALL. What does he do? He presses on (v12); forgets what’s behind (v13) reaching forward to what’s ahead (v13); presses towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (v14). His direction is always UP….UP….UP.
He then goes on to say (v16) “Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule”. You see? The victories which the Israelites achieved in the Promised land are the victories which You (Christian) are to have in the Kingdom walk. Have you overcome your sins? Don’t be like Lot’s wife and look back. To the degree that you have attained – let this be your new base. Onward and upward.
Yet he goes further and warns of those in the church (v18-v19) who live by the flesh. They set their minds on earthly things (v19). This is corroborated by Romans 8v5. For these people (in the Church) who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal 5v19-21)
To he/she who reads this – do you think you can, as a Christian, continue to live in sin? Or should you like Paul accept the Holy Standard (Romans 6) and press on and up, forgetting what is behind, and laying hold of Christ. This is plain for you to see.
Herein lies the Hope. For You. For Me. For all who love the Lord.

John

1 John 1 v[SUP]5 [/SUP]This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

He is the essence of Holiness

[SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

How can we say we are “In Christ” and yet walk in sin?

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Do you see this? The blood of Jesus cleanses us when we walk in the light (and not in sin).
The corollary is this, to those here who think OSAS – if you walk in darkness, then the blood of Jesus doesn’t cleanse you from this.
It is clear that the blood of Jesus is only available to a repentant heart. And a repentant heart doesn’t walk in sin.
You cannot retain your sins and retain Christ. You will have to give one of them up.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Whether your interpretation of this scripture (for which there has been much debate on the forums) is to whether this applies to historical or current sins matters not in the greater scheme of things. It applies to both, in that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and this we cannot deny. It is equally applicable should a believer fall into sin and is necessary to repent of such sin. We are to judge ourselves lest we be judged. The first step is total honesty with yourself. For nothing is hidden from God.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

“IF” we confess our sins, He is faithful to Forgive. You claim forgiveness from God do you? Have you confessed your sins to Him? Do you think, like many OSAS believers, that confession is not necessary because repentance is only a one time “event”? Then your sins are retained. Because you choose not to confess. Because you choose not to repent.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

All have sinned.
It doesn’t bring down God’s Holy Standard (Romans 6). Neither does it preclude the possibility of attainment.
God has made a way to deal with past sin. If you wish to appropriate this, then it needs to be according to His way, not yours.

2v1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.

John is clear in this. We are not to sin. John is not a confused Apostle. He is not contradicting himself in the same letter in 1 John 3v6 with 1 John 1v10.
John is showing the way that is available for true repentance.

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Here is the Hope available to us. Jesus Christ. He is our Advocate. He redeemed us. Purchased us by His shed blood on the cross. He loves us. He doesn’t want anyone to go to hell. He makes intercession for the Saints. Thanks be to God. There, in Him, we have our true Hope.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. [SUP]4 [/SUP]He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. [SUP]6 [/SUP]He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

We have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. So how do we respond?
Do we disobey because we have an Advocate?
Do we disobey because Jesus forgives?
Or do we repent of our sins?
Your conscience, lest it be seared, should witness a true response to these questions.

So in summary, the great Apostles of the Lord NEVER condoned Sin. They judged it for what it was. They showed the Holy Standard to which the Church is accountable. They showed the “Way of Righteousness” through Jesus Christ, identification with His death and resurrection by faith, and the Hope by which we are to live, to press on to the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. They showed the way for any of our shortcomings through the advocate we have in Jesus Christ. Not that this was to be a lifestyle of sin, but rather that it provides us a hope that should we fall, we have a path back to the Father through Christ. None of this will be possible without maintaining a repentant heart and confession of sin.

The corollary is the pathway to hell. This is the rejection of Christ’s way, and instead imputing your own way, namely:

No need for repentance
No need for confession
Holiness being optional
The Red Letter Words of Christ being “optional”, or a derivation of this that these words were “Old Testament”, or that these were only for the “Jews”.
Denial of sin (there are many derivations of this, one of these being a positional salvation – which means that sin doesn’t exist even though you transgress – because you have been made holy once and for all time, without any further accountability on your part)
Rejection of obedience

You need to get off this road, if this is what you believe. Before it’s too late.

BenFTW · May 24, 2017

The standard is perfection, yet our salvation is through Christ being the propitiation. We are saved by grace through faith, and yes, holiness is still a part of our walk as a natural response of who we have been made. We are new creations, as you pointed out. You don't need any of the condemnation, however, in what you present.

The standard of perfection is something God sanctifies us towards, and if it be God who is doing it, how is it that not only our salvation is a gift but so too our progress, and yet you speak of Hell consequentially (as if its by our own doing)? It is the Lord that sanctifies, not our own moralistic striving.

You don't place the Law before people, and say, "Do." You place Christ before their eyes and say, "Done." It is then that you awaken them to righteousness, so that they may "sin not." You inform them of who they have been made to be, so that by faith and revelation it may be carried out. It is a renewing of the mind, and as you shared, a reckoning of oneself to be dead to sin and alive unto God, for what power does sin have over us who are under grace? Scripture says it shall not have dominion, for we are not under the law but under grace.

I beg to differ in your use of walking in the light and how one cannot sin or else not be cleansed by the blood of Jesus. It is while we were in sin that the blood of the Lamb cleansed us, and indeed, it continually does so as His sacrifice was once and for all, followed by Him sitting at the Father's right hand.

Scripture says without the shedding of the blood there is no remission for sin, so had Christ's blood not been an eternally sufficient sacrifice for sin Christ would've suffered since the foundation of the world (Hebrews 9:26). Hence, we are yet in the light and also cleansed of sin. Consider, it is while we are in the light that we are cleansed of sin, so how then does "walking in the light" equate to sinless perfection, when while in the light we are "cleansed of all sin?" What sin would there be to be cleansed if we are perfect while in the light?

This is why the Apostle John says we have an Advocate, and in Hebrews of Jesus, He is presented as our High Priest. What does scripture say? We are saved in our striving for holiness or are we saved because of Jesus?

Hebrews 7:25 King James Version (KJV)

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The goal very well may be to walk without sin, as our hearts should so be geared, yet our salvation is not dependent upon us overcoming a particular sin that we may struggle with. Our salvation is through Christ, by Christ. It is of faith. What sins we struggle with God is sanctifying us from, through many processes including revelation that renews our mind to who we are in Him.

We are, again, saved by grace through faith.

Meggido · May 24, 2017

Are we discussing perfection in terms of spiritual maturity or perfection as only Jesus was perfect and sinless?

If it is the latter, we will never be sinless or perfect as Christ was. We will miss the mark and can and should ask forgiveness immediately when we do.

However, we do have our choice back regarding SIN and it should not have dominion over it as we renew our minds to the word of God. SIN is a choice not an action or force we are helpless over.

Genesis 3 and 4.6 and James 1.13-16, James 4 and Romans 14 are the best examples here.

Chris1975 · May 24, 2017

BenFTW said:

The standard is perfection, yet our salvation is through Christ being the propitiation. We are saved by grace through faith, and yes, holiness is still a part of our walk as a natural response of who we have been made. We are new creations, as you pointed out. You don't need any of the condemnation, however, in what you present.

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[SUP][a][/SUP] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
- I suppose you would take issue with this verse as well?
- since there is condemnation on those who walk according to the flesh. And this is consistent with the passages I posted.

The standard of perfection is something God sanctifies us towards, and if it be God who is doing it, how is it that not only our salvation is a gift but so too our progress, and yet you speak of Hell consequentially (as if its by our own doing)? It is the Lord that sanctifies, not our own moralistic striving.

Hebrews 10v26
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [SUP]27 [/SUP]but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? [SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[SUP][e][/SUP] says the Lord.[SUP][f][/SUP] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[SUP][g][/SUP] [SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
- then why does God hold this person above accountable?
- if cooperation by the believer is "not an option" and if "God does it all" then why is He holding this person accountable?
- You would then take exception to this verse then as well.

You don't place the Law before people, and say, "Do." You place Christ before their eyes and say, "Done."

Well the weight of scripture, again, is contrary to what you say. The law is now written on the hearts and minds of those in the new covenant.

Let's look at one or two examples:
[h=3]Luke 6
[/h][SUP]46 [/SUP]“But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? [SUP]47 [/SUP]Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: [SUP]48 [/SUP]He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.[SUP][h][/SUP] [SUP]49 [/SUP]But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell.[SUP][i][/SUP] And the ruin of that house was great.”

Romans 2
[SUP]13 [/SUP](for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Romans 3
[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

[h=1] Hebrews 10v16[SUP]
16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[SUP][a][/SUP]
[/h]

It is then that you awaken them to righteousness, so that they may "sin not." You inform them of who they have been made to be, so that by faith and revelation it may be carried out. It is a renewing of the mind, and as you shared, a reckoning of oneself to be dead to sin and alive unto God, for what power does sin have over us who are under grace? Scripture says it shall not have dominion, for we are not under the law but under grace.

- then, if that be the case, you would agree that we are not to sin.
- what then, would you say, would be the situation where this is not the case? Someone who carries on in the flesh after committing to the Lord Jesus. Is this one destined for salvation?

I beg to differ in your use of walking in the light and how one cannot sin or else not be cleansed by the blood of Jesus. It is while we were in sin that the blood of the Lamb cleansed us, and indeed, it continually does so as His sacrifice was once and for all, followed by Him sitting at the Father's right hand.

Lets look at the scripture again:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
- when you say it continually cleanses us - by implication you make allowance for living in sin whilst this washing happens. And this is NOT the biblical method for dealing with sin.
- John is VERY clear, in this passage, that admittance, confession and repentance are the methods of remaining in the light. You cannot retain your sins and retain Christ. You turn from your sins, by the power of Christ to delievr you. But YOU decide. And YOU are judged accordingly. Jesus has made the "way" possible, and the "power" available. The "choice" is yours. And you will be judged accordingly.

Scripture says without the shedding of the blood there is no remission for sin, so had Christ's blood not been an eternally sufficient sacrifice for sin Christ would've suffered since the foundation of the world (Hebrews 9:26).
- this one sacrifice for all time means that all the sins you ever commit, provided that there is repentance, will be forgiven. He will not overlook your willful sinful life where you refuse righteousness. Then you are not "In Christ". Then you are an impostor.

Hence, we are yet in the light and also cleansed of sin. Consider, it is while we are in the light that we are cleansed of sin, so how then does "walking in the light" equate to sinless perfection, when while in the light we are "cleansed of all sin?" What sin would there be to be cleansed if we are perfect while in the light?
- You are not in the light in your pornography. Or are you so silly to think so?
- When you give this up, burn your magazines, and turn, with a godly sorrow, perhaps God will relent and grant you repentance.
-Matthew 6v23[SUP] 23 [/SUP]But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

This is why the Apostle John says we have an Advocate, and in Hebrews of Jesus, He is presented as our High Priest. What does scripture say? We are saved in our striving for holiness or are we saved because of Jesus?
- Your advocate will only intercede based on your repentance. He will not stand in your stead where you have no remorse.
- You are saved by Grace (from him) through Faith (your continued belief). If you believe not His word, you have not His Grace.

Hebrews 7:25 King James Version (KJV)

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
- for those who repent. Jesus and John the Baptist first ministered a message of "Repentance" to the people.

The goal very well may be to walk without sin, as our hearts should so be geared, yet our salvation is not dependent upon us overcoming a particular sin that we may struggle with.
- where is your faith?
- have you not enough faith to overcome?
- then your faith is worthless.

Our salvation is through Christ, by Christ. It is of faith. What sins we struggle with God is sanctifying us from, through many processes including revelation that renews our mind to who we are in Him.
- it requires your co-operation.
- You are to DO the WILL of the FATHER.

We are, again, saved by grace through faith.

Grace= from Him
Faith = your continued belief
To those who OVERCOME He will grant to eat from the tree of life.

In blue above.

blue_ladybug · May 24, 2017

There is no such thing as sinless perfection. The phrase itself is an oxymoron.. If we were sinless and perfect, we would be immortals in a mortal world..

BillG · May 24, 2017

Chris1975 said:

The Standard of Sinless Perfection

We have read a myriad of to-and-fro answers from both camps in CC over this particular topic.
Let’s see some of the scriptures which grieve those who are against sinless perfection:

Romans 6v1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? [SUP]2 [/SUP]Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
Romans 6v15 [SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
Romans 6v22-23 [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8v12-14 [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
1 John 3v4-9 [SUP]4 [/SUP]Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

ALL OF THIS IS WRITTEN TO THE CHURCH. Not to outsiders.

So the jackpot questions are these:

Is the above possible?
1. If you say “yes” – then you agree with the Word of God. For that (above) is what it says.
2. If you say “no” – then you are is denial about the Word of God. For the scriptures are plain to see.
If God has a Holy Standard, would it be sinless perfection, or something less?
1. If you say “sinless perfection” you agree that the Lord is Holy. Without Holiness Nobody will see the Lord. 1 Peter 1v15-16 [SUP]15 [/SUP]but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, [SUP]16 [/SUP]because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”[SUP][c][/SUP] Elsewhere it is written: Hebrews 12 [SUP]14 [/SUP]Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: [SUP]15 [/SUP]looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; and elsewhere it is written: Matthew 5v48 [SUP]48 [/SUP]Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
2. If you say something short of sinless perfection; you deny the Lord, for He is the essence of Holiness. He can never make the standard lower than perfection.

The Apostles Paul and John wrote the above scriptures under inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They are truth. Now you are presented the opportunity to either accept them and ask the Lord to give you understanding, or reject them, and lose out the treasures of what the Lord God wants to reveal to you next. If you really want to press into Him, if you really want the overcoming life, then take the above scriptures as the Gospel truth. We are to rise to this standard, and not drag this down to man’s standard.

How is the above state achieved? How are we to live according to this standard?

The clues can also be found in Romans 6
Romans 6v3-11
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, [SUP]6 [/SUP]knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For he who has died has been freed from sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, [SUP]9 [/SUP]knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The above is received by faith. It’s your faith in ACTION

Reckon yourself DEAD TO SIN
Reckon yourself ALIVE TO GOD IN CHRIST JESUS THE LORD

Here is the clue:

You can NEVER overcome sin unless you dethrone sin in your life by identifying your old man dead on the cross. Crucified with Christ (Gal 2v20). Pick up your cross daily (Luke 9v23).
You can NEVER live the resurrected life in Christ (living in the Spirit) unless you go through the cross and identify your new man alive in Christ. You are a new creation (2 Cor 5v17). Born again (1 John 5v4 ; John 3v3). Christ living in you (Gal 2v20)

If you tell yourself “It’s impossible to stop sinning” you by FAITH restore the power of Sin over your life. You re-enthrone Sin as your Master. Is that really what you want? It may be so, that that is what you want. But that’s not true Christianity. Christianity is not a democracy. There is a King. And this King is Lord. And He is Jesus Christ. And what He says, you should heed.

Now, the above being said, namely (A) God’s standard (B) How this is appropriated ----- let’s move onto (C) the Hope we have should we have to this point failed in heeding God’s word and a path back into His arms…….
In order to share with you the Hope which is found within the Word of God, it would be useful to look at the lives of Paul and John, who wrote most of the scriptures written above.

Paul

Question: Did Paul live the very standard that he wrote above? Or was he a Hypocrite? Or is there a truth which can be gleaned from the above passages when comparing this to other scriptures which Paul wrote? Let’s see below:

Philippians 3 [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, [SUP]11 [/SUP]if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, [SUP]14 [/SUP]I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. [SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[SUP][b][/SUP] let us be of the same mind.[SUP]17 [/SUP]Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: [SUP]19 [/SUP]whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]21 [/SUP]who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Now from the above passages we see a clear link between Romans 6 (the Holy Standard) and Philippians 3 (Paul’s walk with the Lord)
Paul references the conformity of His death with Christ (Phil 3v10 and Romans 6 v5,6,8) as well as the resurrection life (Phil 3v10,11 and Romans 6 v5,8)
Paul lives this by FAITH, yet he says he has not yet already attained (v12) or perfected (v12) or apprehended (v13)
YET ---- Paul doesn’t let this hold him back. He doesn’t bring down God’s standard AT ALL. What does he do? He presses on (v12); forgets what’s behind (v13) reaching forward to what’s ahead (v13); presses towards the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus (v14). His direction is always UP….UP….UP.
He then goes on to say (v16) “Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule”. You see? The victories which the Israelites achieved in the Promised land are the victories which You (Christian) are to have in the Kingdom walk. Have you overcome your sins? Don’t be like Lot’s wife and look back. To the degree that you have attained – let this be your new base. Onward and upward.
Yet he goes further and warns of those in the church (v18-v19) who live by the flesh. They set their minds on earthly things (v19). This is corroborated by Romans 8v5. For these people (in the Church) who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God (Gal 5v19-21)
To he/she who reads this – do you think you can, as a Christian, continue to live in sin? Or should you like Paul accept the Holy Standard (Romans 6) and press on and up, forgetting what is behind, and laying hold of Christ. This is plain for you to see.
Herein lies the Hope. For You. For Me. For all who love the Lord.

John

1 John 1 v[SUP]5 [/SUP]This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.

He is the essence of Holiness

[SUP]6 [/SUP]If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

How can we say we are “In Christ” and yet walk in sin?

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Do you see this? The blood of Jesus cleanses us when we walk in the light (and not in sin).
The corollary is this, to those here who think OSAS – if you walk in darkness, then the blood of Jesus doesn’t cleanse you from this.
It is clear that the blood of Jesus is only available to a repentant heart. And a repentant heart doesn’t walk in sin.
You cannot retain your sins and retain Christ. You will have to give one of them up.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Whether your interpretation of this scripture (for which there has been much debate on the forums) is to whether this applies to historical or current sins matters not in the greater scheme of things. It applies to both, in that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and this we cannot deny. It is equally applicable should a believer fall into sin and is necessary to repent of such sin. We are to judge ourselves lest we be judged. The first step is total honesty with yourself. For nothing is hidden from God.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

“IF” we confess our sins, He is faithful to Forgive. You claim forgiveness from God do you? Have you confessed your sins to Him? Do you think, like many OSAS believers, that confession is not necessary because repentance is only a one time “event”? Then your sins are retained. Because you choose not to confess. Because you choose not to repent.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

All have sinned.
It doesn’t bring down God’s Holy Standard (Romans 6). Neither does it preclude the possibility of attainment.
God has made a way to deal with past sin. If you wish to appropriate this, then it needs to be according to His way, not yours.

2v1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.

John is clear in this. We are not to sin. John is not a confused Apostle. He is not contradicting himself in the same letter in 1 John 3v6 with 1 John 1v10.
John is showing the way that is available for true repentance.

And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Here is the Hope available to us. Jesus Christ. He is our Advocate. He redeemed us. Purchased us by His shed blood on the cross. He loves us. He doesn’t want anyone to go to hell. He makes intercession for the Saints. Thanks be to God. There, in Him, we have our true Hope.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. [SUP]4 [/SUP]He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. [SUP]6 [/SUP]He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

We have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ. So how do we respond?
Do we disobey because we have an Advocate?
Do we disobey because Jesus forgives?
Or do we repent of our sins?
Your conscience, lest it be seared, should witness a true response to these questions.

So in summary, the great Apostles of the Lord NEVER condoned Sin. They judged it for what it was. They showed the Holy Standard to which the Church is accountable. They showed the “Way of Righteousness” through Jesus Christ, identification with His death and resurrection by faith, and the Hope by which we are to live, to press on to the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. They showed the way for any of our shortcomings through the advocate we have in Jesus Christ. Not that this was to be a lifestyle of sin, but rather that it provides us a hope that should we fall, we have a path back to the Father through Christ. None of this will be possible without maintaining a repentant heart and confession of sin.

The corollary is the pathway to hell. This is the rejection of Christ’s way, and instead imputing your own way, namely:

No need for repentance
No need for confession
Holiness being optional
The Red Letter Words of Christ being “optional”, or a derivation of this that these words were “Old Testament”, or that these were only for the “Jews”.
Denial of sin (there are many derivations of this, one of these being a positional salvation – which means that sin doesn’t exist even though you transgress – because you have been made holy once and for all time, without any further accountability on your part)
Rejection of obedience

You need to get off this road, if this is what you believe. Before it’s too late.

Before I engage in this post I would like to ask.

What is sin to you?

Do you sin?
Do you believe beleivers can come a place of not sinning whilst on earth?

Please don't quote bible verses back at me, if you would be kind enough just to answer my questions above.

Ta

Bill

Socreta93 · May 24, 2017

blue_ladybug said:

^what she said

Chris1975 · May 24, 2017

BillG said:

So you would prefer we dispense with scripture, and instead use human reasoning to come to a conclusion on spiritual matters?

I would prefer we take the scriptures, for that is truth.

BillG · May 24, 2017

Chris1975 said:

Nope not at all.

Scripture has a purpose, for learning, revelation and reproof.

so from your understanding of scripture and how you interpret it please answer my questions.

You and I have been here before and I memory serves me you have dissed me, accused me of being stupid and not knowing the bible.

So once again I ask you the same questions.

What truth is it that the scriptures have revealed to you concerning the standard of sinless perfection.

Just looking for answers to my questions to you.

You yourself have used human reasoning to come to a conclusion of spiritual matters base on your understanding of scripture.

So what is the truth to to you?

Ariel82 · May 24, 2017

Perfection in the Bible refers to spiritual maturity, not sinlessness.

To be without sin is something to strive for, however one should not deny the conviction of the Holy Spirit and believe you have obtained it in this life because in many ways we can not be perfect is wisdom or understanding of all God's mysteries which blind us to our own sin. Only by the Holy Spirit are we able to grow.

Rockrz · May 24, 2017

1 John 1:8
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Those void of the Truth... claim to be sinless and perfect like some of the false grace people believe.

Now, there is a difference between knowingly and willing committing sin... versus falling short of God's glory which includes making mistakes, forgetting things, etc... things that are not actually "sin" but things God would never do since He is literally perfect in every way.While one may claim they have grown spiritually to not commit sin willing or knowingly... they will never quit making mistakes, forgetting stuff, dropping stuff, breaking stuff, etc, etc.

God doesn't do any of that cause He is literally living in sinless perfection.

BillG · May 24, 2017

Rockrz said:

Do you not think though if we not do the things that God would never do is still a sin?
If we will make mistakes even unknown to us it's still a sin?
After all we miss the mark of God.

Maybe we need a deeper insight as to what sin truly is, a deeper revelation of God an his perfection

Rockrz · May 24, 2017

That's what I was saying... some things are not sin as walking after the flesh would be... but just not being perfect like God is

Ariel82 · May 24, 2017

1. There will always be a need for repentance as long as people sin.

2. Confession is so that we can receive God's forgiveness and renew our mind to His truth and is needed daily in a Dr
Christians life. It can also be confession of the truths and promises God gives us.

3. Holiness needs to be measured by God's standard and he has a way to search our hearts and not just our outward
actions. Holiness is shown in the fruit of the Spirit and heavenly wisdom.

4. The entire Bible is to God's people and written for a reason.

5. Many people deny sin and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. I believe in the perservance of the saints but you seem to have a misundertanding of that doctrine.

6. Obedience happens when God renews the heart and teaches the mind his wisdom and how to live godly lives

BillG · May 24, 2017

Rockrz said:

So are you saying that sin is after things of the flesh?
If so would you mind clarifying for me the sins of the flesh are.

We know Jesus did not submit to will of the flesh but to will of God.

So to me Jesus was perfect and Holy, in mind, in the flesh and spirit.

Thats why he had to die.

To me we can't be perfect like God is and stuff we do that is not off the flesh but out of ignorance or not knowing we have got it wrong is still sin

Truth is though Jesus paid the ultimate price for it all.

bluto · May 24, 2017

Can you please tell me chris why 1 John 2:1,2 is in the Bible?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

eternally-gratefull · May 24, 2017

Chris1975 said:

this is why you can not discuss nothing with these people.

Can you show some humility, or is it always this banter going on. Who says your interpretation of scripture is right. ASnyone can pick a few verses and make a doctrine..

It is not for us to try to figure out what you believe, it would be better if you just told us..

eternally-gratefull · May 24, 2017

Rockrz said:

This sounds like someone4 trying to excuse their sin. Vs someone who willingly and openly acknowledges they have sin.

Falling short is falling short. God will not say, Well it was just an oopsie, so your ok. Enter the pearly gates. He will say you have sinned and fall short.

We need to be careful of trying to excuse our sin, as just mistakes..

eternally-gratefull · May 24, 2017

BillG said:

I think this is what separates the two groups. (Grace and works) is the definition of sin and what it causes..

BillG · May 24, 2017

eternally-gratefull said:

Alas not discussion and only imposition.

Im right your wrong.

i am always willing to walk and talk, regardless of differences.

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