Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
So why is believer saved if his works are not a great or good as the non believer?

I know a few people whose love for others would put a lot of Christians to shame.
I know of one who believes in `God and rather hopes his good deeds outweigh his bad deeds and he gets in.

ps don't get tetchy with me, it's not you.
There is a difference between our own works and God's works in and through us. Neither of them "save us". Christ alone is our Savior - we don't save ourselves.

Acts 7:41 (KJV)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.

Romans 4:3-6 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

[SUP]6 [/SUP] just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Romans 11:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

We are saved By Christ's life that is in us. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever. He is NOT a liar.

Romans 5:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

The false doctrine of "being saved by our works" is an anti-Christ belief system that denies the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to do and manifesting the true life of Christ in and through us.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,907
4,349
113
An unbeliever who does MANY good works will still not be saved because he has no faith and does not believe in the one name by whom we can be saved.

Whatever a believer does, he does FOR God.
I did all the same things now that I did before, but now I do them FOR God.

I take care of my family.
Maybe I go to a job.
I try to be honest with people.
I witness in the hopes that someone may come to know God.
I study the bible.
I help someone if I can.

etc. EVERYTHING I do I do FOR God.
Does this mean that studying the bible is a hardship? A "work"?
NO.

A WORK is anything I do for God and to promote His Kingdom.
Jesus meant to set up a Kingdom.
The Kingdom is coming and is ALREADY HERE.
You must BELIEVE to SEE the Kingdom.

When you baptize someone it is a WORK.
When you witness to someone it is a WORK.
When you volunteer for your Church, it is a WORK.


When I was in a choir IT WAS A WORK.
I loved it and did it because I loved it, but it was still a WORK.

See?
So therefore a believer is saved by faith and his works he does for God and our love for him, because he is in us and we in him.

Everything you have quoted you/we do so for God and out of love for him.

Whats the first fruit of the Spirit per `Galatians - its love.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
It's fleshy because it's MAN-MADE.
Calvin made it.
It was never understood until he came along.
It was never a Christian doctrine.
So why didn't the Holy Spirit teach it BEFORE Him?
Were other theolgians for 1,500 years just to dumb to get it?

Will someoe please answer this for me?
well He taught it Himself (John 6,39; 10.27-28). Paul taught it clearly in Romans 3.21-5.21. Also Ch 8. Peter taught it. John taught it. Augustine of Hippo taught it. Huss taught it. So not all were dumb. :)
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
The Bible says quench not the Spirit,which some saints can lack of doing what God requires of them.

Which James points out if they are not going to do what God requires of them,then faith without works is dead,for a person is justified by works,and not faith alone.

How can a person be saved,and be right with God,if they refuse to do what God requires them to do,for then they are being rebellious,and the Bible says,to obey is better than sacrifice.

If a person believes sin does not affect their relationship with God,and works does not save them,would they not lack doing works for they would have a relaxed attitude concerning being Christlike,and living for the kingdom of God.

The truth is a lot of people that claim Christ as Lord and Savior do not do much for the kingdom,but go to work,come home,and enjoy themselves according to the flesh,and go to Church,and then go home,and enjoy themselves according to the flesh.

But how can they be in a saved position when they do not want to labor for the kingdom of God,and Jesus said,the kingdom of God is within you,then the kingdom of God's ways should be displayed by that person.

If this is the case then works has to have a bearing on our salvation,for if we do not do the works then we lack faith,and one of the big things that a lot neglect in works is helping the poor and needy,and the false prosperity Gospel does not help.

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Notice how Jesus is concerned with their works,and tells them to do the first works,and they have fallen because of lack of those works,and if they do not repent,He will remove their candlestick out of his place,so works obviously have a bearing on salvation for Jesus is telling them to do those works,or they are not right with Him,and in a fallen state.

Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Jesus said,He has not found their works perfect before God,and to repent,so if works are not important then why does Jesus tell them to do those works,or He will catch them by surprise in their fallen state,and they will not be saved.

Jesus said works are important,for if you do not do works,you are in a fallen state,and need to do those works,for you have to do what God requires of you,live for the kingdom of God rightly,and stop enjoying the pleasures of the world.

Repent says Jesus,or else,

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

There are a lot of people that lack doing works,and laboring for the kingdom of God,lukewarm,that go to work,come home,and enjoy things of the flesh,go to Church,go home,and enjoy things of the flesh.
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
And here are some teachings on OSAS from the earliest of Christians.
Ignatius of Antioch LEARNED FROM JOHN THE APOSTLE.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Perhaps these words, since they are consistent with what we read in the whole of the Word of God, are worthy to be accepted as supplemental, yet not on the same level of authority as the truth of Holy Writ. The purpose of placing these words in this volume is to show a preponderance of witnesses to the divine truth once delivered to the saints of Christ (Jude 3-4). This is an historical witness to the truth of Scripture. Some who read this will have been surrounded by those who espouse Calvin’s teachings and have had little exposure to the words of other men and their view of Bible truth.

Knowing truth from error is the result of becoming intimately and personally familiar with the contents of the New Testament Scriptures. As we behold what Christ and His apostles taught we are then able to rightly divide the Word of truth and discern who is and who is not teaching and speaking according to the original Gospel (2 Tim. 2:15; 3:16; Heb. 5:11-14).

oday, many who are within Christendom, go back to Calvin, a man with no genuine kingdom authority whatsoever – because he simply did not honor the counsel of God (Isa. 8:20; 1 Pet. 4:11). If we are going to look back to mere men for inspiration and authority, why not go a little further back than Calvin? Why not do the right thing and look to “holy men of God” who “spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost”? (2 Pet. 1:20-21)When we do, we will find John Calvin to be a heretical false teacher who spent his years poisoning the church world with his “private interpretation” and outright and outlandish falsehoods.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” (Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, A.D.110)

“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” (Didache, A.D.140)

“That eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” (Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1, A.D.156)

“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 A.D. 180)

“But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwillingly. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? Is not this gift taken away from many?” (Tertullian, On Repentance, 6 A.D. 204)

“Therefore, the ones who are pardoned are those who slip into sin unintentionally and incautiously. He who sins willfully has no pardon.” (Lactantius, A.D. 304)

“By believing in Him you will live. But by disbelieving you will be punished.” (Apostolic Constitutions, A.D. 390)

“Grace with the Lord, when once learned and undertaken by us, should never afterward be cancelled by repetition of sin.” (Tertullian, A.D. 203)

“He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way.” (Second Clement, A.D. 150)

“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law] and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death—you will by no means be saved.” (Justin Martyr, A.D. 160)

“Rather, we should fear ourselves, lest perchance, after we have come to the knowledge of Christ, if we do those things displeasing to God, we obtain not further forgiveness for sin, but are shut out of His kingdom.” (Irenaeus, A.D. 180)

“He who hopes for everlasting rest knows also that the entrance to it is toilsome and narrow. So let him who has once received the gospel not turn back.” (Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 195)

“God gives forgiveness of past sins. However, as to future sins, each one procures this for himself. He does this by repenting, by condemning past deeds, and by begging the Father to blot them out.” (Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 195)

“The world returned to sin…and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins.” (Tertullian, A.D. 198)

“Rather they must be preserved. It is not the actual attainment, but the perfecting, that keeps a man for God.” (Cyprian, A.D. 250)

“A son who deserts his father in order not to pay him obedience is considered deserving of being disinherited and having his name removed forever from his family.” (Lactaintius, A.D. 304)

“He who sins after baptism, unless he forsakes his sins, will be condemned to Gehenna.” (Apostolic Constitutions, A.D. 390)

“These things, beloved, we write unto you, not merely to admonish you of your duty, but also to remind ourselves. For we are struggling on the same arena, and the same conflict is assigned to both of us. Wherefore let us give up vain and fruitless cares, and approach to the glorious and venerable rule of our holy calling. Let us attend to what is good, pleasing, and acceptable in the sight of Him who formed us. Let us look stedfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God, which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world. Let us turn to every age that has passed, and learn that, from generation to generation, the Lord has granted a place of repentance to all such as would be converted unto Him. Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved. Jonah proclaimed destruction to the Ninevites but they, repenting of their sins, propitiated God by prayer, and obtained salvation, although they were aliens [to the covenant] of God.” (Clement to the Corinthians, 7:33-36)

“Day and night ye were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God’s elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience.” (Clement to the Corinthians, 2:7, 8)

“On account of envy, Aaron and Miriam had to make their abode without the camp. Envy brought down Dathan and Abiram alive to Hades.” (Clement to the Corinthians, 4:20, 21)

“Having obtained good proof that thy mind is fixed in God as upon an immovable rock, I loudly glorify [His name] that I have been thought worthy [to behold] thy blameless face which may I ever enjoy in God! I entreat thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to press forward in thy course, and to exhort all that they may be saved. Maintain thy position with all care, both in the flesh and spirit.” (The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp, 1:1)

“What we gather from all these quotes is that the early Church believed one was saved by faith in Christ and His blood, apart from works. That we’re redeemed and washed from our sins, there must be repentance, if one sinned and did not repent they would be lost. They believed God’s foreknowledge and predestination, and they believed by blaspheming the Holy Spirit and/or forsaking God that one would lose salvation.” unknown

“God is a God of mercy and compassion, He is long suffering, patient, and willing to call you back, but if one persists in willful abandonment and blasphemy against His Spirit, how can He put up with that?” unknown

PRAYER: Holy Father, I love You supremely. Savior of my soul, thank You for coming to die for my sins – for redeeming my life. Thank You. Thank You. Thank You. I cling to Thee alone and to the words of Your holy truth. You promised that as I stand upon Your unchanging truth, that I would forever stand in Thee! Thank You! On Christ the solid rock I do stand and all other ground is sinking sand! So be it Jesus!

Sign up here to begin receiving the Moments with My Master email sent out 1-2 times weekly to edify Christ’s people.

Justin Martyr- c. 100/114AD – c. 162/168 AD. He was another early Christian apologist (defender) of the faith and was martyred by
beheading. His works represent the earliest surviving Christian apologies of notable size:

• Man acts by his own free will and not by fate. (20)

• We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered
according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be
predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless
humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever
they may be…. For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely
created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable
to do anything else than what he was made for. (21)

• But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have
been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men
and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom
they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if
they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless
we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it
foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. (2
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
God gives us grace at the revelation of Jesus Christ. He does not give us grace to "keep the law" in order to try to achieve something - like salvation.

All works-based / works-righteousness belief systems operate like the law of Moses which Christians have died to, been released from and not under but under grace only.

Rather grace enables us to live and feed on the life of Christ that is in us in our new creation - of which He has made us partakers of His life, joined us to Christ as one spirit. sealing us and filling us with His mighty Holy Spirit.

Any good works that flow from us as a result of this is simply a fruit of the Spirit inside of us manifesting His life and good works in and through us. So, really we have nothing to boast about.

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
 
Last edited:

AllenW

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2016
1,450
70
48
well He taught it Himself (John 6,39; 10.27-28). Paul taught it clearly in Romans 3.21-5.21. Also Ch 8. Peter taught it. John taught it. Augustine of Hippo taught it. Huss taught it. So not all were dumb. :)
Obviously, there was no term or doctrine called OSAS prior to Calvin.
But the truth behind it has been throughout the Old and New Testament.

"I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever."
How did David know he was saved before he died.

Could it be that he really wasn't saved because he never met Calvin?
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
2 Timothy 4:18;
"The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom."

See, Paul knew that he was going to heaven before he died.
What he said here in this verse is clearly an OSAS statement.
And Paul was telling Timothy to have the same hope, because God will do it.
I don't deny this.

Of course the Lord will save us from Attacks...

As long as we are IN THE LORD.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
An unbeliever who does MANY good works will still not be saved because he has no faith and does not believe in the one name by whom we can be saved.

Whatever a believer does, he does FOR God.
I did all the same things now that I did before, but now I do them FOR God.

I take care of my family.
Maybe I go to a job.
I try to be honest with people.
I witness in the hopes that someone may come to know God.
I study the bible.
I help someone if I can.

etc. EVERYTHING I do I do FOR God.
Does this mean that studying the bible is a hardship? A "work"?
NO.

A WORK is anything I do for God and to promote His Kingdom.
Jesus meant to set up a Kingdom.
The Kingdom is coming and is ALREADY HERE.
You must BELIEVE to SEE the Kingdom.

When you baptize someone it is a WORK.
When you witness to someone it is a WORK.
When you volunteer for your Church, it is a WORK.


When I was in a choir IT WAS A WORK.
I loved it and did it because I loved it, but it was still a WORK.

See?
They are a fruit of your salvation, not the means of it continuing. You are saved because Christ saved you, and keeps you saved, not because of what you do. What you do is a RESULT of Christ in you.,
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
We are now sons/daughters of God and live by His life that is in us now.

Jesus said that He lived by the Father inside of Him. He said that it is the Father inside Him who is doing His works - not Jesus. He could do nothing of His own initiative.

As Jesus lived by the life of the Father in Him - with total dependence on His life - so we too live by the life of Christ inside of us manifesting His life as a fruit of our union as one spirit with Christ. We too can do nothing without Christ.

We live now from the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the law of love, the law of liberty in Christ, the law of faith ( the law is NOT of faith ) , the law of Christ Himself.

Good works that originate from Christ inside of us are the works that God has prepared for us from the foundation of the world that we will walk in.
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
So why is believer saved if his works are not a great or good as the non believer?

I know a few people whose love for others would put a lot of Christians to shame.
I know of one who believes in `God and rather hopes his good deeds outweigh his bad deeds and he gets in.

ps don't get tetchy with me, it's not you.
This is going to get a little complicated.
Maybe not.

The answer is because he's trusting in Jesus to save him, since we cannot save ourselves or Jesus never would have had to die.

Regarding your friend who says he believes in God and is hoping to "get in" by doing more good works than bad works.

Jesus is God. If He says he believes in God then He's going to be with God.
If he's trying to do good works to "get in", I'd say he's toiling and I'm sorry for Him.
Jesus said hIS yoke is easy and light and he gives us comfort and sent us help.

However, because he had INCORRECT doctrine, does not mean he is lost.
Jesus saves us, not our doctrine. OR MANY OF US WOULD BE LOST, since there are so many doctrines floating about!
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,907
4,349
113
I don't understand your interpretation as follows

Rev 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
Rev 2:3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Notice how Jesus is concerned with their works,and tells them to do the first works,and they have fallen because of lack of those works,and if they do not repent,He will remove their candlestick out of his place,so works obviously have a bearing on salvation for Jesus is telling them to do those works,or they are not right with Him,and in a fallen state.
Jesus was not initially concerned with their works as such.
What was his rebuke?

They had left their first love.
Who was their first love?

Jesus

Therefore repent of that then and do the first works in keeping with that love, the works he commends in v2-3.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
Believers stated perverting the gospel of the grace of God in Christ right from the first.

Here it shows that the believing Jews were perverting the gospel right in front of the apostles in Jerusalem. John was right there then.

Acts 21:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

Paul said that there came those perverting the gospel of the grace of Christ only a year after He preached Christ to the Galatians.

They came in with their "good works" doctrine - of keeping the commandments of the law. The "doing of things" in order to achieve the things of God like salvation and righteousness.

Galatians 3:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

The works of the law are the things we do or don't do for righteousness and thus salvation.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
8,025
124
63
And here are some teachings on OSAS from the earliest of Christians.
Ignatius of Antioch LEARNED FROM JOHN THE APOSTLE.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

Perhaps these words, since they are consistent with what we read in the whole of the Word of God, are worthy to be accepted as supplemental, yet not on the same level of authority as the truth of Holy Writ. The purpose of placing these words in this volume is to show a preponderance of witnesses to the divine truth once delivered to the saints of Christ (Jude 3-4). This is an historical witness to the truth of Scripture. Some who read this will have been surrounded by those who espouse Calvin’s teachings and have had little exposure to the words of other men and their view of Bible truth.

Knowing truth from error is the result of becoming intimately and personally familiar with the contents of the New Testament Scriptures. As we behold what Christ and His apostles taught we are then able to rightly divide the Word of truth and discern who is and who is not teaching and speaking according to the original Gospel (2 Tim. 2:15; 3:16; Heb. 5:11-14).

oday, many who are within Christendom, go back to Calvin, a man with no genuine kingdom authority whatsoever – because he simply did not honor the counsel of God (Isa. 8:20; 1 Pet. 4:11). If we are going to look back to mere men for inspiration and authority, why not go a little further back than Calvin? Why not do the right thing and look to “holy men of God” who “spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost”? (2 Pet. 1:20-21)When we do, we will find John Calvin to be a heretical false teacher who spent his years poisoning the church world with his “private interpretation” and outright and outlandish falsehoods.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“And pray ye without ceasing in behalf of other men; for there is hope of the repentance, that they may attain to God. For ‘cannot he that falls arise again, and he may attain to God.’” (Ignatius of Antioch, To the Ephesians, A.D.110)

“Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. But often shall ye come together, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time.” (Didache, A.D.140)

“That eternal fire has been prepared for him as he apostatized from God of his own free-will, and likewise for all who unrepentant continue in the apostasy, he now blasphemes, by means of such men, the Lord who brings judgment [upon him] as being already condemned, and imputes the guilt of his apostasy to his Maker, not to his own voluntary disposition.” (Justin Martyr, fragment in Irenaeus’ Against Heresies, 5:26:1, A.D.156)

“Christ shall not die again in behalf of those who now commit sin, for death shall no more have dominion over Him; but the Son shall come in the glory of the Father, requiring from His stewards and dispensers the money which He had entrusted to them, with usury; and from those to whom He had given most shall He demand most. We ought not, therefore, as that presbyter remarks, to be puffed up, nor be severe upon those of old time, but ought ourselves to fear, lest perchance, after [we have come to] the knowledge of Christ, if we do things displeasing to God, we obtain no further forgiveness of sins, but be shut out from His kingdom. And therefore it was that Paul said, ‘For if [God] spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest He also spare not thee, who, when thou wert a wild olive tree, wert grafted into the fatness of the olive tree, and wert made a partaker of its fatness.’” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:27:2 A.D. 180)

“But some think as if God were under a necessity of bestowing even on the unworthy, what He has engaged (to give); and they turn His liberality into slavery. But if it is of necessity that God grants us the symbol of death, then He does so unwillingly. But who permits a gift to be permanently retained which he has granted unwillingly? For do not many afterward fall out of (grace)? Is not this gift taken away from many?” (Tertullian, On Repentance, 6 A.D. 204)

“Therefore, the ones who are pardoned are those who slip into sin unintentionally and incautiously. He who sins willfully has no pardon.” (Lactantius, A.D. 304)

“By believing in Him you will live. But by disbelieving you will be punished.” (Apostolic Constitutions, A.D. 390)

“Grace with the Lord, when once learned and undertaken by us, should never afterward be cancelled by repetition of sin.” (Tertullian, A.D. 203)

“He who keeps them will be glorified in the kingdom of God. However, he who chooses other things will be destroyed with his works.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“Only those who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as for those who do not keep His commandments, there is no life in them.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life.” (Barnabas, A.D. 70)

“Let us therefore repent with the whole heart, so that none of us perish by the way.” (Second Clement, A.D. 150)

“I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e. the Mosaic Law] and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death—you will by no means be saved.” (Justin Martyr, A.D. 160)

“Rather, we should fear ourselves, lest perchance, after we have come to the knowledge of Christ, if we do those things displeasing to God, we obtain not further forgiveness for sin, but are shut out of His kingdom.” (Irenaeus, A.D. 180)

“He who hopes for everlasting rest knows also that the entrance to it is toilsome and narrow. So let him who has once received the gospel not turn back.” (Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 195)

“God gives forgiveness of past sins. However, as to future sins, each one procures this for himself. He does this by repenting, by condemning past deeds, and by begging the Father to blot them out.” (Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 195)

“The world returned to sin…and so it is destined to fire. So is the man who after baptism renews his sins.” (Tertullian, A.D. 198)

“Rather they must be preserved. It is not the actual attainment, but the perfecting, that keeps a man for God.” (Cyprian, A.D. 250)

“A son who deserts his father in order not to pay him obedience is considered deserving of being disinherited and having his name removed forever from his family.” (Lactaintius, A.D. 304)

“He who sins after baptism, unless he forsakes his sins, will be condemned to Gehenna.” (Apostolic Constitutions, A.D. 390)

“These things, beloved, we write unto you, not merely to admonish you of your duty, but also to remind ourselves. For we are struggling on the same arena, and the same conflict is assigned to both of us. Wherefore let us give up vain and fruitless cares, and approach to the glorious and venerable rule of our holy calling. Let us attend to what is good, pleasing, and acceptable in the sight of Him who formed us. Let us look stedfastly to the blood of Christ, and see how precious that blood is to God, which, having been shed for our salvation, has set the grace of repentance before the whole world. Let us turn to every age that has passed, and learn that, from generation to generation, the Lord has granted a place of repentance to all such as would be converted unto Him. Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved. Jonah proclaimed destruction to the Ninevites but they, repenting of their sins, propitiated God by prayer, and obtained salvation, although they were aliens [to the covenant] of God.” (Clement to the Corinthians, 7:33-36)

“Day and night ye were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God’s elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience.” (Clement to the Corinthians, 2:7, 8)

“On account of envy, Aaron and Miriam had to make their abode without the camp. Envy brought down Dathan and Abiram alive to Hades.” (Clement to the Corinthians, 4:20, 21)

“Having obtained good proof that thy mind is fixed in God as upon an immovable rock, I loudly glorify [His name] that I have been thought worthy [to behold] thy blameless face which may I ever enjoy in God! I entreat thee, by the grace with which thou art clothed, to press forward in thy course, and to exhort all that they may be saved. Maintain thy position with all care, both in the flesh and spirit.” (The Epistle of Ignatius to Polycarp, 1:1)

“What we gather from all these quotes is that the early Church believed one was saved by faith in Christ and His blood, apart from works. That we’re redeemed and washed from our sins, there must be repentance, if one sinned and did not repent they would be lost. They believed God’s foreknowledge and predestination, and they believed by blaspheming the Holy Spirit and/or forsaking God that one would lose salvation.” unknown

“God is a God of mercy and compassion, He is long suffering, patient, and willing to call you back, but if one persists in willful abandonment and blasphemy against His Spirit, how can He put up with that?” unknown

PRAYER: Holy Father, I love You supremely. Savior of my soul, thank You for coming to die for my sins – for redeeming my life. Thank You. Thank You. Thank You. I cling to Thee alone and to the words of Your holy truth. You promised that as I stand upon Your unchanging truth, that I would forever stand in Thee! Thank You! On Christ the solid rock I do stand and all other ground is sinking sand! So be it Jesus!

Sign up here to begin receiving the Moments with My Master email sent out 1-2 times weekly to edify Christ’s people.

Justin Martyr- c. 100/114AD – c. 162/168 AD. He was another early Christian apologist (defender) of the faith and was martyred by
beheading. His works represent the earliest surviving Christian apologies of notable size:

• Man acts by his own free will and not by fate. (20)

• We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered
according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be
predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless
humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever
they may be…. For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely
created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable
to do anything else than what he was made for. (21)

• But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have
been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men
and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom
they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if
they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless
we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it
foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. (2
LOL have you studied Ignatius? He was far removed from Paul and the other Apostles, whom he never understood. His writings are a mixture of truth and gross error.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,907
4,349
113
This is going to get a little complicated.
Maybe not.

The answer is because he's trusting in Jesus to save him, since we cannot save ourselves or Jesus never would have had to die.

Regarding your friend who says he believes in God and is hoping to "get in" by doing more good works than bad works.

Jesus is God. If He says he believes in God then He's going to be with God.
If he's trying to do good works to "get in", I'd say he's toiling and I'm sorry for Him.
Jesus said hIS yoke is easy and light and he gives us comfort and sent us help.

However, because he had INCORRECT doctrine, does not mean he is lost.
Jesus saves us, not our doctrine. OR MANY OF US WOULD BE LOST, since there are so many doctrines floating about!
He doesn't believe in Jesus though. He can believe in a man called Jesus and that Jesus being the one in the N.T.
But only to the extent that walked the earth and died, and it stops there. No resurrection.
A good man that's all
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
Why are you fighting me?
What I stated above as to how I see and believe is not the same as Calvin.
Calvin has no copy right or patent on what OSAS doctrine is.
He's merely expressing what he believes as I am on the same subject.
If you tried to understand what I said above instead of believing that Calvin owns the OSAS interpretation, then maybe you would agree with me.
I agree with you that it's not easy to leave Christ.
John 6:68

John Calvin worked out the doctrine of OSAS. It's called Eternal Security in the 5 points of Calvinism.
This is why I mention Calvin. Martin Luther also believed this but did not insist upon it as Calvin did.
Augustine had some idea of this, but he was wrong on other matters so I don't usually use him for any reference.

Now YOU, Allen, are expressing what you believe.
OK. But how many will hear Allen?

Calvin made a Whole movement out of what he believed...
Reformed churches teach what Calvin taught.

I'm not fighting YOU,
I'm fighting Calvin.

OSAS DID start with him.

If the bible teaches you this, you're allowed to believe this, as a born again believer.

If one is a new Christian, I think it's a very dangerous doctrine.
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
He doesn't believe in Jesus though. He can believe in a man called Jesus and that Jesus being the one in the N.T.
But only to the extent that walked the earth and died, and it stops there. No resurrection.
A good man that's all
No. One who has been exposed to Jesus and the gospel must believe Jesus is God, that He died for our sins, that He was resurrected, and that we must follow Him and believe in Him.

If he believes that Jesus was only a good man or a prophet, then ask him this:

Was Jesus crazy?

He had to have been if He THOUGHT He was God but wasn't!

If I think I'm Napolean, I must be crazy.
So, either Jesus was who He said he was (God) or he was a crazy man who went to the cross under the delusion of being God.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
They are a fruit of your salvation, not the means of it continuing. You are saved because Christ saved you, and keeps you saved, not because of what you do. What you do is a RESULT of Christ in you.,
If it is not a salvation issue,and Christ in us that is a result of the works,and Jesus said,the kingdom of God is within you,then someone needs to explain the lack of works that occurs among many people that believe OSAS.

Observe the many people that enjoy the things of the world,when God says,love not the world,or the things of the world,for if they do they are not of the Father,and the prosperity Gospel,or liking material things,and money,for personal wants,which if they do,the love of God does not dwell in them.

The cursing,swearing,enjoying fleshy pleasures,and worldliness,lack of acting like Christ,smoking,drinking,which the Bible says,they are lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.

And I see it a lot in society of people that claim Christ,and say,I am a Christian,but they are worldly,even to the point of being somewhat nasty,among many that claim OSAS.

So if it is not a salvation issue,and it is because Christ is in us that we do works,then someone needs to explain the lack of works,for there is no room for anything but laboring for the kingdom of God.

A lot of people do not labor for the kingdom of God,but may occassionly tell someone of Christ,but go to Church,and then it is worldly time,but why the lack of works if it is Christ in them causing them to do works.

Does Christ work part time in their life,but Jesus is employed full time,so why is there a lack of works.

How do they explain it,for look at it out in society among people that believe OSAS,it is worldly among many of them,so why the lack of works.

If the saints truly did not lack works,and actually did all that the Spirit would have them do,they would be busy as beavers among the world,but most people,especially in the United States so their job,come home,worldliness time,go to Church,go home,worldliness time.

Why the lack of works,and if it is Christ that works in them to do works,why is it not showing.
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
LOL have you studied Ignatius? He was far removed from Paul and the other Apostles, whom he never understood. His writings are a mixture of truth and gross error.
VALIENT!

I hope you know there were two named Igantius.

I DID SAY IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH.

Igantius of Antioch (the Bishop of Antioch)
KNEW And learned from JOHN THE APOSTLE.

You could look this up, don't take my word for it.
 
Apr 30, 2016
5,162
75
0
Believers stated perverting the gospel of the grace of God in Christ right from the first.

Here it shows that the believing Jews were perverting the gospel right in front of the apostles in Jerusalem. John was right there then.

Acts 21:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law;

Paul said that there came those perverting the gospel of the grace of Christ only a year after He preached Christ to the Galatians.

They came in with their "good works" doctrine - of keeping the commandments of the law. The "doing of things" in order to achieve the things of God like salvation and righteousness.

Galatians 3:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

The works of the law are the things we do or don't do for righteousness and thus salvation.
You're speaking about how the Jews wanted to go back to living under the Law.
I've been saying all along that we live under grace.

I don't understand why you even bring this up. It shows that you don't read my posts very well...
WE ARE NOT LIVING UNDER THE LAW,

BUT WE ARE REQUIRED TO KEEP THE LAW.

It's in HOW we keep the Law that the New Covenant changes from that of the Old or Mosaic Covenant.