What A Sovereign God Cannot Do....

[Johnny_B]

"Wait a minute!" someone counters. "Are you suggesting that our omnipotent God is unable to effect His will upon earth? What heresy is this! Paul clearly says that God 'worketh all things after the counsel of his own will' (Eph:1:11
)."

Yes. But the Bible itself contains many examples of men defying God's will and disobeying Him. God laments, "I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me" (Isa:1:2).

The sacrifices they offer Him and their evil lives are obviously not according to His will. We are told that "the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected for themselves the counsel of God" (Lk 7:30). Christ's statement in Matthew:7:21
shows clearly that everyone doesn't always do God's will. That is implied also in Isaiah:65:12
; 1 Thessalonians:5:17-19
; Hebrews:10:36
; 1 Peter:2:15
; 1 John:2:17
and many other scriptures. In fact, Ephesians:1:11
doesn't say that everything that happens is according to God's will, but according to "the counsel" of His will. Clearly the counsel of God's will has given man freedom to disobey Him. There is no other explanation for sin.

Purpose and will or the counsel of God's will are two different things. There are 17 Greek words that the KJV translated will, wills, willing or willingly, where more modern translations translate by the context that they used in. Not many of them are about the Council of His will.

Luke 7:30 "(When all the people heard this, and the tax collectors too, they declared God just, having been baptized with the baptism of John,30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)"

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." This has nothing to do with God's direct will, it has to do with "entering" in fact the Greek does not use a word for will here, the word "eiserchomai" which has nothing to do with will or the purpose (council) of His will.

I Thessalonians 5:17-19 Lets quote the full context 16-22 "Rejoice always,17 pray without ceasing,18 give thanks in all circumstances; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you.19 Do not quench the Spirit.20 Do not despise prophecies,21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.22 Abstain from every form of evil."

Again nothing to do with the council of His will or Him freeing man to disobey Him, by the way that is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. God freeing man to disobey Him, when they already disobey Him, why do they need to be freed to disobey?

Hebrews 10:36 "For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised." How does this prove the point trying to be made. This verse shows that it's not God's will that those should perish or that all will be save according to the purpose of His will.

Ezekiel 18:23 "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?" He says no where that it is the council of His will that all men be saved.

I Peter 2:15 "For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people."

I John 2:17 "And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever."

These verses proved nothing that the writer is assuming, I like the way he/she tried to twist the Scriptures by saying "the counsel of God" implying that all the verses they are going to quote were about the council of God's will, when they clearly are not. They also failed to show as they put it "Clearly the council of God's will has given man freedom to disobey Him."

John 8:34 "Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin." also John 3:18-20

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed."

 

[followjesus]

When you mess with ppl's 'free will', they go hog wild and pig crazy.

Man is enslaved to and by sin.[Matthew 6:24, Romans 6:6 & 6:16] That's why Jesus said no one can come to Him unless...

"Man is enslaved to and by sin."

john 8:31-34 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YE CONTINUE IN MY WORD, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know THE TRUTH, and the truth shall MAKE YOU FREE 33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

we WERE slaves to sin, thats what the truth of the gospel is all about freeing the captives.

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to PREACH DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

romans 6:16-18 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that YE WERE THE SERVANTS OF SIN, but ye have OBEYED FROM THE HEART that form of DOCTRINE ( the ministry of Jesus) which was delivered you. 18Being then made FREE FROM SIN ye became the servants of righteousness."


we were slaves to sin , those who accept Jesus words keeping them are made free. its the purpose of His Word and is the doctrine Of God

john 7:16-17 "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. "


those who refuse the Gospel, are indeed slaves to sin because the only freedom is found in the teachings of Jesus....which are the teachings of the Father. freedom, light, life, spirit, truth, the rock <<< he says all these things about His word, His doctrine, His sayings believe Him its true

 

[Johnny_B]

"Man is enslaved to and by sin."

john 8:31-34 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF YE CONTINUE IN MY WORD, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know THE TRUTH, and the truth shall MAKE YOU FREE 33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."

we WERE slaves to sin, thats what the truth of the gospel is all about freeing the captives.

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to PREACH DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,"

romans 6:16-18 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that YE WERE THE SERVANTS OF SIN, but ye have OBEYED FROM THE HEART that form of DOCTRINE ( the ministry of Jesus) which was delivered you. 18Being then made FREE FROM SIN ye became the servants of righteousness."


we were slaves to sin , those who accept Jesus words keeping them are made free. its the purpose of His Word and is the doctrine Of God

john 7:16-17 "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. "


those who refuse the Gospel, are indeed slaves to sin because the only freedom is found in the teachings of Jesus....which are the teachings of the Father. freedom, light, life, spirit, truth, the rock <<< he says all these things about His word, His doctrine, His sayings believe Him its true

​That is why when the Son sets you free you are free indeed.

 

[followjesus]

​That is why when the Son sets you free you are free indeed.

we are set free By His word, he has always given man freedom to choose, look at the Garden. satan is who took our freedom and enslaved us to sin, by a word of fallacy. Jesus gave the truth that sets free. if you look at all the "if yous" in the new testament, it kind of makes our choice prety obvious. we are wuickened through belief in His word, the only rewuirement is to Have faith in Him, that includes His words if we persevere in the gospel ministry, and believe Jesus words, and also accept His death and resurrection. the power of Gods word, makes us new its what paul is alays referring to " you are new creations" through the word of Jesus, Just as creation came through the word of God because Jesus words, were God the creators.

2 corinthians 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

remember that when God created mankind, the first thing He did was give them dominion over all the earth and all that is in it, satan then took control over man, by deception, leading to sin. genesis 6s circumstance when " men are only evil all the time" is the will of satan working in man, not Gods will. Gods will is expressed in what Jesus said thats His will for us How to treat each other things like " be merciful, give to the needy, be faithful to our spouse, dont lust after other mens wives, bless the ones who curse us, ect.... that is Gods will for us and it will always remain the same

 

[followjesus]

This also makes free will kind of straight forward

acts 17:26-31 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

matthew 7:7-8 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."


hebrews 11:6 "[FONT=&quot]But without faith [/FONT]it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

 

[SovereignGrace]

This also makes free will kind of straight forward

acts 17:26-31 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

matthew 7:7-8 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened."


hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

But you have drummed yourself up an conundrum here.

I will post portions of Psalm 14 to keep it concise...
The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.[vs 2][SUP] [/SUP]Do all these evildoers know nothing? They devour my people as though eating bread; they never call on the Lord.[vs 4]

And then there's Romans 3...

As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.[vss 10,11]

Now, how do these passages, which aver that NO ONE seeks God, jive with those that say to seek Him?

 

[SovereignGrace]

we are set free By His word, he has always given man freedom to choose, look at the Garden. satan is who took our freedom and enslaved us to sin, by a word of fallacy. Jesus gave the truth that sets free. if you look at all the "if yous" in the new testament, it kind of makes our choice prety obvious. we are wuickened through belief in His word, the only rewuirement is to Have faith in Him, that includes His words if we persevere in the gospel ministry, and believe Jesus words, and also accept His death and resurrection. the power of Gods word, makes us new its what paul is alays referring to " you are new creations" through the word of Jesus, Just as creation came through the word of God because Jesus words, were God the creators.

2 corinthians 4:6 "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."

remember that when God created mankind, the first thing He did was give them dominion over all the earth and all that is in it, satan then took control over man, by deception, leading to sin. genesis 6s circumstance when " men are only evil all the time" is the will of satan working in man, not Gods will. Gods will is expressed in what Jesus said thats His will for us How to treat each other things like " be merciful, give to the needy, be faithful to our spouse, dont lust after other mens wives, bless the ones who curse us, ect.... that is Gods will for us and it will always remain the same

You are failing to see how entrenched the lost are in their sins. They are slaves to it. They are blinded by it. They are dead in it. Now, here's where ppl miss the deadness of the lost in their sins. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.[2 Cor. 4:4] The lost are blinded to the gospel via Satan. Satan will not remove the blinders either, so that they can see. God has to come in and destroy the works of the devil in that individual's life so that they can see the gospel, which displays the glory of the Christ. Unless God removes those blinders, they can see the glory of the Christ. And when He quickens them, He then opens their eyes, so that NOW they can see the glory of Christ that the gospel displays.

 

[SovereignGrace]

we are set free By His word, he has always given man freedom to choose,

And man's freedom to choose is always bound by his nature. There is always a driving force behind why ppl choose something.

Jesus gave the truth that sets free.

But you add the caveat that once you choose to accept the truth, it makes you free. So, in reality, you're saying ppl have a freedom to choose before the Christ sets them free. So, all it did, in your view, is not make them free, but made them freer.

we are wuickened through belief in His word,

We are quickened and then we believe. Once He quickens us, then, and only then, can we believe.

the only rewuirement is to Have faith in Him,

Faith is not innate within man, but is given to man in the divine quickening of a dead in sin sinner, and then they exercise that God-given faith and are saved. We are justified by faith. Once we have faith, we are justified. Once we are justified, we are declared righteous before Him. So, if everyone w/o exception has faith, then everyone w/o exception is saved.

 

[followjesus]

But you have drummed yourself up an conundrum here.

I will post portions of Psalm 14 to keep it concise...
The Lord looks down from heaven on all mankind to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God.[vs 2]Do all these evildoers know nothing? They devour my people as though eating bread; they never call on the Lord.[vs 4]

And then there's Romans 3...

As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.[vss 10,11]

Now, how do these passages, which aver that NO ONE seeks God, jive with those that say to seek Him?

it is the context you arent quoting....

what you are quoting there is paul explaining the problem, he goes on a few verses later to say this

romans 3:21-26 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; ( you have quoted a prophet of old) 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."


i guess to believe in Jesus, kind of bodes the question " why wouldnt i believe His words if i have my faith in him?"

so paul goes on from explaining the problem , to explaining the answer God sent

romans 6:1-4 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life"

a little further along in pauls explaination about freedom from sin

romans 6:16-18 "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

same thing Jesus said in the gospel

john 8:31-34 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? ( free from what?)
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."


and whats the "doctrine delivered to the roman church?

john 7:16-17 "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."


its an issue when we take especially paul with a verse or two, because like peter says, its hard to understand, and easily distorted, paul is often using 2 chapters to make His profound points

2 peter 3:15-18 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."


Jesus ois straight forward, easy to grasp, paul is an expounder and making complex statements so like some do to others here, taking one line, often distorts the point being made. we fell by the word of satan a lie, we are redeemed through the word of Jesus Christ, and forgiven of our past through His atonement and resurrection, receive the Holy ghost as He promised he would send to those who kept His words, when He was seated at Gods right hand, ( see john 16:7 +acts 2:33) its all about Jesus, His life, death resurrection, ascention AND teachings. He is our everything

 

[SovereignGrace]

it is the context you arent quoting....

what you are quoting there is paul explaining the problem, he goes on a few verses later to say this

romans 3:21-26 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; ( you have quoted a prophet of old) 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."


i guess to believe in Jesus, kind of bodes the question " why wouldnt i believe His words if i have my faith in him?"

so paul goes on from explaining the problem , to explaining the answer God sent

romans 6:1-4 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life"

a little further along in pauls explaination about freedom from sin

romans 6:16-18 "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

same thing Jesus said in the gospel

john 8:31-34 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? ( free from what?)
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."


and whats the "doctrine delivered to the roman church?

john 7:16-17 "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."


its an issue when we take especially paul with a verse or two, because like peter says, its hard to understand, and easily distorted, paul is often using 2 chapters to make His profound points

2 peter 3:15-18 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."


Jesus ois straight forward, easy to grasp, paul is an expounder and making complex statements so like some do to others here, taking one line, often distorts the point being made. we fell by the word of satan a lie, we are redeemed through the word of Jesus Christ, and forgiven of our past through His atonement and resurrection, receive the Holy ghost as He promised he would send to those who kept His words, when He was seated at Gods right hand, ( see john 16:7 +acts 2:33) its all about Jesus, His life, death resurrection, ascention AND teachings. He is our everything

Can you be a little more concise? How about give us smaller posts to digest? I enough eating from a hearty debate, but don't like being gorged in doing so. Thanks in advance.

 

[followjesus]

And man's freedom to choose is always bound by his nature. There is always a driving force behind why ppl choose something.


But you add the caveat that once you choose to accept the truth, it makes you free. So, in reality, you're saying ppl have a freedom to choose before the Christ sets them free. So, all it did, in your view, is not make them free, but made them freer.



We are quickened and then we believe. Once He quickens us, then, and only then, can we believe.


Faith is not innate within man, but is given to man in the divine quickening of a dead in sin sinner, and then they exercise that God-given faith and are saved. We are justified by faith. Once we have faith, we are justified. Once we are justified, we are declared righteous before Him. So, if everyone w/o exception has faith, then everyone w/o exception is saved.

ill let you get back to the others .... God bless though.

 

[SovereignGrace]

it is the context you arent quoting....

what you are quoting there is paul explaining the problem, he goes on a few verses later to say this

romans 3:21-26 "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; ( you have quoted a prophet of old) 22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus."


i guess to believe in Jesus, kind of bodes the question " why wouldnt i believe His words if i have my faith in him?"

We are saved by His grace through faith, which is correct. However, if faith comes from us, then we have, in essence, saved ourselves. God needs nothing from man, and expects nothing from man, either.

Now, why do some believe and others don't?

 

[followjesus]

We are saved by His grace through faith, which is correct. However, if faith comes from us, then we have, in essence, saved ourselves. God needs nothing from man, and expects nothing from man, either.

Now, why do some believe and others don't?

romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." <<<<< its why belief is required if it comes to us by Hois word, God saves us throiugh His word as He has always created.....but ive been in this circle alot so im out.

 

[SovereignGrace]

so paul goes on from explaining the problem , to explaining the answer God sent

romans 6:1-4 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life"

a little further along in pauls explaination about freedom from sin

romans 6:16-18 "What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."

Notice that in verse 17 of Romans 6 Paul wrote "but you have obeyed from the heart that form of teaching..." Now, Jeremiah 17:9 avers the heart is deceitful and beyond cure, so how did they believe from their heart? This shows that there was a regenerating of the spirit that in this divine quickening, God gives that one a new heart and spirit[Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26]. So, it takes God to first quicken them before they can believe from their heart and have faith in the Christ.

 

[SovereignGrace]

same thing Jesus said in the gospel

john 8:31-34 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? ( free from what?)
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."


and whats the "doctrine delivered to the roman church?

john 7:16-17 "Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."


its an issue when we take especially paul with a verse or two, because like peter says, its hard to understand, and easily distorted, paul is often using 2 chapters to make His profound points

2 peter 3:15-18 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. 18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen."


Jesus ois straight forward, easy to grasp, paul is an expounder and making complex statements so like some do to others here, taking one line, often distorts the point being made. we fell by the word of satan a lie, we are redeemed through the word of Jesus Christ, and forgiven of our past through His atonement and resurrection, receive the Holy ghost as He promised he would send to those who kept His words, when He was seated at Gods right hand, ( see john 16:7 +acts 2:33) its all about Jesus, His life, death resurrection, ascention AND teachings. He is our everything

Again, belief stems from the heart. The lost have a sin-deadened heart and can not believe. That is why a divine heart-exchange must take place first.

 

[followjesus]

Notice that in verse 17 of Romans 6 Paul wrote "but you have obeyed from the heart that form of teaching..." Now, Jeremiah 17:9 avers the heart is deceitful and beyond cure, so how did they believe from their heart? This shows that there was a regenerating of the spirit that in this divine quickening, God gives that one a new heart and spirit[Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26]. So, it takes God to first quicken them before they can believe from their heart and have faith in the Christ.

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wh9ich was my original point, look at what you said there " God quickens us"

john 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

same point in romans 10:17, its all about Gods word, has been from eden, to revelation. Jesus is the One God sent with the truth ( Gods word) have a good evening. and please understand, im not arguing with you, just consider , and i will also. God bless and Keep you

 

[SovereignGrace]

romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." <<<<< its why belief is required if it comes to us by Hois word, God saves us throiugh His word as He has always created.....but ive been in this circle alot so im out.

I agree that faith comes from HEARING the word. Notice, faith comes from hearing the word. So if it comes from hearing the word, then if one does not hear it, they don't possess faith. That shows w/o a shadow of doubt, that not everybody w/o exception has faith. Many have died down through the ages w/o ever hearing the gospel, neither knew anything about the Christ. These could not possess faith in God, seeing that faith comes from hearing the message, and the message concerning the Christ.

 

[followjesus]

Again, belief stems from the heart. The lost have a sin-deadened heart and can not believe. That is why a divine heart-exchange must take place first.

" heart-exchange must take place first."

thats why Jesus suffered so greatly, to win our hearts to God

 

[SovereignGrace]

wh9ich was my original point, look at what you said there " God quickens us"

john 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

same point in romans 10:17, its all about Gods word, has been from eden, to revelation. Jesus is the One God sent with the truth ( Gods word) have a good evening. and please understand, im not arguing with you, just consider , and i will also. God bless and Keep you

Just for some clarity, does man do anything in this divine quickening? I mean, does He quicken after they do something first?

 

[followjesus]

I agree that faith comes from HEARING the word. Notice, faith comes from hearing the word. So if it comes from hearing the word, then if one does not hear it, they don't possess faith. That shows w/o a shadow of doubt, that not everybody w/o exception has faith. Many have died down through the ages w/o ever hearing the gospel, neither knew anything about the Christ. These could not possess faith in God, seeing that faith comes from hearing the message, and the message concerning the Christ.

maybe thats the issue, different translations

kjv " romans 10:17 "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

modern niv "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ."

original Niv " so then, faith comes by Hearing the message, and the mesage is heard through the word of Christ"

anyways , ive been in this circle alot, and it never goes anywhere, i hope youll consider, but thats your choice