-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Sorry sister, I am going to remain honest: Not really. Many on here hate election. Yes. Hate election. That and they just can't accept it and attack all those who do. Many brothers, sisters and myself have been the target of their disdain, lies, and attacks, and that is a fact.
No, I'm not seeing that you believe in those Biblical terms, just simply giving them token acceptance. Sister, you've already shown disdain for election by using a term intended to make it sound derogatory. I know that is easier to do, to go with the crowd and straddle the fence on the issue.
If you believe in the doctrine of election you'd see it plainly throughout Scripture that God elects all who will be saved unto salvation, and none other. He chose us, not vice versa. It is the milk of the Word, and none would be saved without God electing them to salvation based upon nothing other than His decree to do so. Is that a hard truth? Of course, but it is there. We do not fully understand it, and anyone who says they do is deluded. It is somewhat a mystery, but we will know more perhaps someday.
Of course, no need to ask that question, a lot of my bros and sisters hold to theological errors,
and we all have snotty little attitudes towards one another at times. It's just the lying I cannot accept, and frankly many on here do it perpetually, and typically from the anti-Cal camp. I know that won't earn me any brownie points, but I'm not here for that.
Last edited:
Wesley had some theological problems and a large part of it is that he held great disdain for election and predestination. Several on here hold the same loathing for God's truth - not just differing opinions about the doctrines - it is straight up rejection and disdain for these truths.
Arnold Dallimore says that much about Wesley is false as far as the good of his person, quotes, his "perfection" &c that others attribute to him. He calls this "the Wesley myth."
BTW, I grew up a Methodist. I reject its teachings as many are completely unbiblical and man exalting. But that is pure Wesleyanism, its perfectionism is man exalting to the core as well as its free will teachings.
Arnold Dallimore says that much about Wesley is false as far as the good of his person, quotes, his "perfection" &c that others attribute to him. He calls this "the Wesley myth."
BTW, I grew up a Methodist. I reject its teachings as many are completely unbiblical and man exalting. But that is pure Wesleyanism, its perfectionism is man exalting to the core as well as its free will teachings.
i just read something deeply disturbing. one of our sisters was told (presumably by someone reformed) she was stony ground, not elect, and unable to be saved. just because she had some doubts, the specifics of which i'm unaware.
that just makes me want to punch someone right in the face!
we know that's a terrible misrepresentation is what we believe, but who couldn't understand being totally turned off to reformed teaching based on that pack of lies??
i can't begin to imagine what that might do to a person's tender heart. (and she has one of those)
so i'm going to get pizza and sing happy birthday to myself. lol
and so, y'all, be kind to one another, for Jesus' sake.
D
Let me turn this around on you. That is intentionally misrepresenting your beliefs to prove mine, since that is exactly what you are doing by now.
Arminianism doesn't allow God. Instead they believe they impose on God's will their own will. Thus, they save themselves.
See? Two can play that game! Just tweak what the other believes enough to make them look like idiots for what they don't even believe.
Annoying? Ain't it?
Arminianism doesn't allow God. Instead they believe they impose on God's will their own will. Thus, they save themselves.
See? Two can play that game! Just tweak what the other believes enough to make them look like idiots for what they don't even believe.
Annoying? Ain't it?
For those of you who are Calvinist, is this accurate? It's from the Calvinistcorner. If it's not, please let us know how you would alter what you believe with this understanding of the tulip.
The system of Calvinism adheres to a very high view of scripture and seeks to derive its theological formulations based solely on God’s word. It focuses on God’s sovereignty, stating that God is able and willing by virtue of his omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence, to do whatever He desires with His creation.
It also maintains that within the Bible are the following teachings: That God, by His sovereign grace predestines people into salvation; that Jesus died only for those predestined; that God regenerates the individual where he is then able and wants to choose God; and that it is impossible for those who are redeemed to lose their salvation.
Arminianism, on the other hand, maintains that God predestined, but not in an absolute sense. Rather, He looked into the future to see who would pick him and then He chose them.
Jesus died for all peoples' sins who have ever lived and ever will live, not just the Christians. Each person is the one who decides if he wants to be saved or not. And finally, it is possible to lose your salvation (some arminians believe you cannot lose your salvation).
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
The Five Points of Calvinism
There are two mains camps of theology within Christianity in America today: Arminianism and Calvinism. Calvinism is a system of biblical interpretation taught by John Calvin. Calvin lived in France in the 1500's at the time of Martin Luther who sparked the Reformation.The system of Calvinism adheres to a very high view of scripture and seeks to derive its theological formulations based solely on God’s word. It focuses on God’s sovereignty, stating that God is able and willing by virtue of his omniscience, omnipresence, and omnipotence, to do whatever He desires with His creation.
It also maintains that within the Bible are the following teachings: That God, by His sovereign grace predestines people into salvation; that Jesus died only for those predestined; that God regenerates the individual where he is then able and wants to choose God; and that it is impossible for those who are redeemed to lose their salvation.
Arminianism, on the other hand, maintains that God predestined, but not in an absolute sense. Rather, He looked into the future to see who would pick him and then He chose them.
Jesus died for all peoples' sins who have ever lived and ever will live, not just the Christians. Each person is the one who decides if he wants to be saved or not. And finally, it is possible to lose your salvation (some arminians believe you cannot lose your salvation).
Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
Total Depravity:
Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.
The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).
Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).
Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
D
And, again. You don't listen. And again, you seem like you think I'm 6 years old and can't possibly understand Arminian, because you won't hear I WAS Arminian for over a decade.
That's exactly what happened! I thought I save myself. No lie, and no condescending.
At one point you thought you were explaining Calvinism perfectly because you went to a Calvinistic church. You weren't. You were explaining what a Calvinistic church taught. Now you think you're explaining what all Arminians think. You're not. You're explaining what you think.
Please consider the difference. We're the same age!
That's exactly what happened! I thought I save myself. No lie, and no condescending.
At one point you thought you were explaining Calvinism perfectly because you went to a Calvinistic church. You weren't. You were explaining what a Calvinistic church taught. Now you think you're explaining what all Arminians think. You're not. You're explaining what you think.
Please consider the difference. We're the same age!
D
I know, many people believe that is what it teaches because it appears thus. It is a common misnomer. Total Depravity is another that is misunderstood due to its phrasing.
But what IG does teach is in the end all God has elected will finally be gathered in by His grace, unable to resist it any further. Note Paul in Acts 9, he had "kicked against the goads" for a time, but God's grace succeeded.
But what IG does teach is in the end all God has elected will finally be gathered in by His grace, unable to resist it any further. Note Paul in Acts 9, he had "kicked against the goads" for a time, but God's grace succeeded.
)
True.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
God gave us free will to a certain extent,for if not there would not be any sin,and this is mainly on an individual level.
But in the course of the world,God is in control to direct it as He sees fit,and this is on a grander scale,dealing with the nations,and kingdom,rulers,and how they affect the people that they rule.
Dan 4:28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.
Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
Dan 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Dan 4:36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
Dan 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
On an individual level we have free will to a certain extent,but in the course of the nations,and kingdoms,God rules in the kingdom of men,and gives it to whoever He wants.
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
God gave us free will to a certain extent,for if not there would not be any sin,and this is mainly on an individual level.
But in the course of the world,God is in control to direct it as He sees fit,and this is on a grander scale,dealing with the nations,and kingdom,rulers,and how they affect the people that they rule.
Dan 4:28 All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.
Dan 4:29 At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
Dan 4:30 The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
Dan 4:31 While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.
Dan 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
Dan 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Dan 4:36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
Dan 4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
On an individual level we have free will to a certain extent,but in the course of the nations,and kingdoms,God rules in the kingdom of men,and gives it to whoever He wants.
D
These are the things I held against God at one time:
1. He killed a lot of his own people -- his chosen nation.
2. He hardened Pharaoh's heart! And then punished Pharaoh because his heart was hardened.
3. He told the Israelites to commit genocide over quite a few nations.
4. He didn't let me choose. He chose me before I even had a chance to choose.
5. He didn't choose me on the merits of me being me.
And then?
And then I had to eventually recognize he is God, complete sovereign, gets all this stuff better than I ever will, and I can't/won't change who he is.
So I better learn to accept, then appreciate, and then love him for who he is. Not for who I'd rather he be.
I get why Wesley got frustrated with election and predestination. I don't get why he never accepted the fact he can't change God. Eventually I grew to realize, I really never was going to choose God without him choosing me. So it's a good thing he chose me.
1. He killed a lot of his own people -- his chosen nation.
2. He hardened Pharaoh's heart! And then punished Pharaoh because his heart was hardened.
3. He told the Israelites to commit genocide over quite a few nations.
4. He didn't let me choose. He chose me before I even had a chance to choose.
5. He didn't choose me on the merits of me being me.
And then?
And then I had to eventually recognize he is God, complete sovereign, gets all this stuff better than I ever will, and I can't/won't change who he is.
So I better learn to accept, then appreciate, and then love him for who he is. Not for who I'd rather he be.
I get why Wesley got frustrated with election and predestination. I don't get why he never accepted the fact he can't change God. Eventually I grew to realize, I really never was going to choose God without him choosing me. So it's a good thing he chose me.
Oh no, a gotcha verse that undoes all Calvinist truth!
That's not exactly what 2 Corinthians 4 says, is it? He blinds their minds, noema, intellect. He would then be attempting to do the very opposite of what God does. Sounds perfectly Satanic to me.
I don't find that unreasonable or controversial at all, he's probably armininan at heart and thinks he can thwart Gods will.
That's not exactly what 2 Corinthians 4 says, is it? He blinds their minds, noema, intellect. He would then be attempting to do the very opposite of what God does. Sounds perfectly Satanic to me.
I don't find that unreasonable or controversial at all, he's probably armininan at heart and thinks he can thwart Gods will.