Chose Your Theological Flower, TULIP, ROSES or DAISY

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Roughsoul1991 said:
I would recommend any new believer to just read the bible first before hearing the oponions of human doctrines.

And then see what seem to agree with what scripture has revealed.

Learning mans doctrines before reading the bible puts a biased potential lens over truth in scripture.
Click to expand...
I totally agree, this is not to push any of them. It was to inform those that keep misquoting views that they misrepresent as if they know what they are talking about. Then when you explain it to them they still misquote it. That's why there are no Scripture references, but if someone is new to the faith they would benefit by reading from this article and the site overall, it on hermeneutics this way when they read the Word of God they can get all they can out of it.

You are right do not listen to what others say, I remember as a new believer that I shared with my pastor how awesome it was that God know that I was going to be saved because He saved my, Romans 8:29-30. He told me no He seen that you were going to have faith and then He elected you. I was new I did not know that you read the Bible like any other book, that the commas, semi-colons, colons, periods and all that goes with the context, grammar, punctuation. I thought the Bible was some type of mystical book that had to be read in a special way that I did not know how to do yet.


How to Study the Bible by understanding the storyline or context. This will help anyone understand the Bible clearly, by following the instructions they give, enjoy.
 
Johnny_B said:
I totally agree, this is not to push any of them. It was to inform those that keep misquoting views that they misrepresent as if they know what they are talking about. Then when you explain it to them they still misquote it. That's why there are no Scripture references, but if someone is new to the faith they would benefit by reading from this article and the site overall, it on hermeneutics this way when they read the Word of God they can get all they can out of it.

You are right do not listen to what others say, I remember as a new believer that I shared with my pastor how awesome it was that God know that I was going to be saved because He saved my, Romans 8:29-30. He told me no He seen that you were going to have faith and then He elected you. I was new I did not know that you read the Bible like any other book, that the commas, semi-colons, colons, periods and all that goes with the context, grammar, punctuation. I thought the Bible was some type of mystical book that had to be read in a special way that I did not know how to do yet.


How to Study the Bible by understanding the storyline or context. This will help anyone understand the Bible clearly, by following the instructions they give, enjoy.
Click to expand...

​Hi Johnny,

Here's the thing, though.

I can list the tulip and all Calvinist or Reformed would probably say they believe it. But within that, some will say I'm a 3 pointer or a 4 pointer. Some even say they're a 1 pointer.

From what I've read, a die-hard Calvinist will say it's all or nothing. Each petal builds on the other.

So if someone says Calvinists believe so and so and it's not what you believe, it doesn't mean they're misrepresenting Calvinism.

It's your view of Calvinism that doesn't line up with what they're saying, but that doesn't mean that many Calvinists don't believe that particular viewpoint that you disagree with.

For instance, I was under a teacher in a bible study and she taught determinism. God makes all things happen. A person is sick because God made them that way. A child molested is because God determined it to happen. And the horror story continues to the point that people are robots because God determined it and so He makes it happen.

​And if you really think about it, no acronym will do justice to what God teaches in His word. You can't condense it all into such a short, small list.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen Romans 11:33-36

 
Desertsrose said:
​Hi Johnny,

Here's the thing, though.

I can list the tulip and all Calvinist or Reformed would probably say they believe it. But within that, some will say I'm a 3 pointer or a 4 pointer. Some even say they're a 1 pointer.

From what I've read, a die-hard Calvinist will say it's all or nothing. Each petal builds on the other.

So if someone says Calvinists believe so and so and it's not what you believe, it doesn't mean they're misrepresenting Calvinism.

It's your view of Calvinism that doesn't line up with what they're saying, but that doesn't mean that many Calvinists don't believe that particular viewpoint that you disagree with.

For instance, I was under a teacher in a bible study and she taught determinism. God makes all things happen. A person is sick because God made them that way. A child molested is because God determined it to happen. And the horror story continues to the point that people are robots because God determined it and so He makes it happen.

​And if you really think about it, no acronym will do justice to what God teaches in His word. You can't condense it all into such a short, small list.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen Romans 11:33-36

Click to expand...
​When I said misquote I was talking about people saying that Calvinists believe in double election and God elects to hell, then you explain to them that it is not part of the teaching on election, that hyper-Calvinists teach that. That's what I was referring to, I believe in the Doctrine of Grace and I also believe man had a free will to chose good and evil and that they can do good thing and could be more evil if they wanted, with all of that they can do nothing to find favor in the sight of the Lord and will never have a desire to seek the Lord, without God's grace moving in their heart.
 
Johnny_B said:
CALVINISM: TULIP
T: Total depravity – Every facet of every person everywhere has been marred by sin.
U: Unconditional election – God chooses those to be saved based solely on His will.
L: Limited atonement – Christ died only for those who are elect.
I: Irresistible grace – The elect cannot resist God’s call to salvation.
P: Perseverance of the saints – The elect cannot lose their salvation.

ARMINIANISM: DAISY*
D: Diminished depravity – Humanity is depraved, but God uses prevenient grace to restore man’s ability to respond to Him.
A: Abrogated election – God bases His election on His foreknowledge of those who freely choose Him.
I: Impersonal atonement – Christ died for everyone, making salvation possible for everyone.
S: Sedentary grace – God calls everyone to salvation, but many freely reject it.
Y: Yieldable justification – The saved can fall from grace and lose their salvation.

*The DAISY acronym is much harder to pin down as there are several different versions (I’ll discuss another when analyzing Arminianism). Also, many Arminians do not like the acrostic. Several versions of DAISY have been pushed by Calvinists as caricatures of Arminian theology. Many Calvinists seem to also enjoy making the lame joke that the Arminian flower is a daisy because they pull the petals off saying, “God loves me. He loves me not.”

MOLINISM: ROSES*
R: Radical depravity – Every aspect of humanity is depraved, but we are not always as bad as we could be.
O: Overcoming grace – God’s grace is persistent in the life of the believer, but it can be resisted.
S: Sovereign election – God desires the salvation of all, but our salvation is based on His choice not ours.
E: Eternal life – God grants believers eternal security in their salvation.
S: Singular redemption – Christ died sufficiently for all people, but efficiently only for the saved.

*Timothy George, a Calvinist Baptist, uses the same acrostic as Kenneth Keathley, a Molinist. The differences lie in the way the terms are defined. I will focus on the Molinist understanding as we will discuss the various forms and moderations of Calvinism with the TULIP.

Tomorrow, we will start off our exploration of the flower bed with the most well known of the botanical acrostics – TULIP.
Click to expand...

What if I have allergies :( {actually,I do}
 
Johnny_B said:
I got that at a website that I posted. I came up with this one.

Dispensationalism VIOLA
Violent depravity — Mankind is deprived, they can do good, but in pleasing God.
Inclusive reconciliation — Christ died for all mankind, that they might be saved.
Omniscient election — God chooses whom He wills, for His purpose.
Life everlasting — Believers are seal by the promised Holy Spirit, until they receive their inheritance.
Alluring grace — God’s grace works in the believe’s life to accept it, but it can be rejected.
Click to expand...


This is all very good as an acronym, but a VIOLA is not a flower. It is a stringed instrument, somewhat bigger and lower in pitch than a violin. It is much smaller than a cello, and played under the chin like a violin.

I think the flower you are thinking of is a violet. Usually violet coloured!

I am busy gardening, so I like that theology is also flowers. Regardless of their meaning. Speaking of gardening and flowers, I really wrecked my shoulder pulling weeds yesterday at my son's house. Please pray for it to heal quickly.

So carry on, just make sure it is a flower, because violas are an expensive instrument, I would hate to see one planted among the flowers!
 
Johnny_B said:
​When I said misquote I was talking about people saying that Calvinists believe in double election and God elects to hell, then you explain to them that it is not part of the teaching on election, that hyper-Calvinists teach that. That's what I was referring to, I believe in the Doctrine of Grace and I also believe man had a free will to chose good and evil and that they can do good thing and could be more evil if they wanted, with all of that they can do nothing to find favor in the sight of the Lord and will never have a desire to seek the Lord, without God's grace moving in their heart.
Click to expand...

Maybe you don't realize this, but Calvin did teach that.
The predestination by which God adopts some to the hope of life, and adjudges others to eternal death, no man who would be thought pious ventures simply to deny….By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death (Institutes of the Christian Religion 3.21.5).
Click to expand...


 
Demi777 said:
Well Ill make my own flower up for this
B Believe
I Inner peace by Christ
B Be Born again
L Love that's ever lasting
E Eternal life
Click to expand...
How about this.

G od's
Riches
At
Christ
Expense

Anyone that called grace cheap, greasy or any other thing, better watch out because Christ gave His life for that grace which is a very high price to pay. Thanks be unto Go that
 
Angela53510 said:
This is all very good as an acronym, but a VIOLA is not a flower. It is a stringed instrument, somewhat bigger and lower in pitch than a violin. It is much smaller than a cello, and played under the chin like a violin.

I think the flower you are thinking of is a violet. Usually violet coloured!

I am busy gardening, so I like that theology is also flowers. Regardless of their meaning. Speaking of gardening and flowers, I really wrecked my shoulder pulling weeds yesterday at my son's house. Please pray for it to heal quickly.

So carry on, just make sure it is a flower, because violas are an expensive instrument, I would hate to see one planted among the flowers!
Click to expand...

Viola https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_(plant)
 
Another thing about TULIP, is that one of the things that drew me to Reformed view, is the Sovereignty of God. It may not seem to be soteriological, but is the whole foundation of how people are saved. Other views downplay the importance of God having total control over not just salvation, but everything.

I see these other views as having an impoverished view of who God is, so perhaps adding an "S" for Sovereignty, to TULIP, would help people see the truth of Reformed doctrine. Or is sovereignty contained in one of the other letters?

i guess I prefer TULIPS in a big bed blooming beautifully, over a single flower in the garden!
 
Angela53510 said:
This is all very good as an acronym, but a VIOLA is not a flower. It is a stringed instrument, somewhat bigger and lower in pitch than a violin. It is much smaller than a cello, and played under the chin like a violin.

I think the flower you are thinking of is a violet. Usually violet coloured!

I am busy gardening, so I like that theology is also flowers. Regardless of their meaning. Speaking of gardening and flowers, I really wrecked my shoulder pulling weeds yesterday at my son's house. Please pray for it to heal quickly.

So carry on, just make sure it is a flower, because violas are an expensive instrument, I would hate to see one planted among the flowers!
Click to expand...
Someone needs to tell the the people that grow Violas, LOL Because they are wasting water. They are a nice purple color check them out. I could of tried Pansy, Poppy, Oxlip, Oxlip or Orpin but the Viola just kind of fell into place.

https://www.thespruce.com/growing-violas-1402895
 
Johnny_B said:
I totally agree, this is not to push any of them. It was to inform those that keep misquoting views that they misrepresent as if they know what they are talking about. Then when you explain it to them they still misquote it. That's why there are no Scripture references, but if someone is new to the faith they would benefit by reading from this article and the site overall, it on hermeneutics this way when they read the Word of God they can get all they can out of it.

You are right do not listen to what others say, I remember as a new believer that I shared with my pastor how awesome it was that God know that I was going to be saved because He saved my, Romans 8:29-30. He told me no He seen that you were going to have faith and then He elected you. I was new I did not know that you read the Bible like any other book, that the commas, semi-colons, colons, periods and all that goes with the context, grammar, punctuation. I thought the Bible was some type of mystical book that had to be read in a special way that I did not know how to do yet.


How to Study the Bible by understanding the storyline or context. This will help anyone understand the Bible clearly, by following the instructions they give, enjoy.
Click to expand...

Very true. Which is why I can't stress enough the phrase in my signature. To question everything and filter it through the word of God. I take nothing as truth unless i know it to be scripture or if the Spirit giving me some kind of warning feeling then ill test someone's interpretation of scripture in context, does it fit with the flow of thought throughout the whole bible, is the interpretation translated in the best modern translation, commentary from different people, meaning of words that could shine light on scripture importance of meaning, my pastor, friends from church, prayer, and Holy Spirits guidance.
 
I think I favor RULIP, myself :D. (I think the term TOTAL depravity can be misleading).
 
Dino246 said:
This is essentially true, though it still looks like a false trichotomy (as though these three were actually the only options).
Click to expand...

Peoples theologies fall into one of the three camps if they are orthodox. Molinism has some huge issues though, IMO.

...I think there is a valid place for this discussion, but I also think there are more important things to get on with doing. :)
Click to expand...

...and here you are discussing it anyhow, lol!!! :p;) :D
 
Tinuviel said:
I think I favor RULIP, myself :D. (I think the term TOTAL depravity can be misleading).
Click to expand...
If you take the history and the context of how, when and why it was written it is easier to understand, it is in the context of mans ability to please God or enter His kingdom. John 3:3

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Unless one is born again they can not even see the kingdom of God, let alone enter it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back