Consequences of sinning

[Roughsoul1991]

Matthew 6:9-13New International Version (NIV)

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.’

Jesus was the final atonement for sin past, present, future.

So why pray for forgiveness?

 

[followjesus]

how does Jesus Christ say the spirit comes to us? Not how yoU think, or what someone else said....but according to Jesus in the gospel does it have anything to do with his words and keeping them?

The Holy spirit, according to the One who sits at the right hand of God, and sends it. the one that everyone claims thier faith is in. This is what Jesus Christ says of the Holy spirit.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.( notice the disciples part and Jesus part)
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye are in me, and I am in you. ( notice the result of receiving the Holy ghost)

21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ( notice once again the direct connection to Jesus words or "commandments)

22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. ( notice the authority of what He is saying "(these are not my words, they are Gods words)
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. ( notice again that the holy spirit reminds of everything jesus said to his disciples in the gospel)

the words of the gospel are spiritual, parables, and deep teachings, the holy spirit comes to those who accept the words of Jesus Christ, and when He comes those very same teachings and words open up understanding, teaching us true things. ( the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, it is living and active, it is the all mighty Gods Words, given through His christ there is no other source of salvation than the things Jesus taught His disciples, because to believe those things is where faith exists.

john 16:7-11 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: "

Luke 24: 49-51 "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. 50And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven
The apostles did this and received the holy spirit exactly as Jesus said they would

acts 2:33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. ( again as Jesus told them keep my words and i will ask the father and He will send the holy spirit to you, and again if i go to the father i will send Him to you. just as Jesus said in the gospel....so it is.


the apostles never changed a single word of Jesus, they were testifying to His truth. a person can develope thier own way to receive the " holy spirit" or they can freel choose to hear what the One who promised the holy spirit said of it. i would advise, simply hearing and believing Jesus...since our faith is in Jesus.

if anyone first believes the gospel, then paul makes perfect sense and theres no need to change anything, because its clear He is testifying to the truth of the gospel, not in any way inventing his own gospel or trying to change the words of Jesus, he himself writes that its a false teaching when anyone refuses to consent to Jesus words. ...Jesus first, and then the rest is all clearly a testimony of Jesus and His word. the spirit teaches us from the gospel, just like people understand you can read the gospel 100 times and still learn from it, thats because of the spirit leading into all truth and teaching from those things.

 

[followjesus]

Matthew 6:9-13New International Version (NIV)

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.’

Jesus was the final atonement for sin past, present, future.

So why pray for forgiveness?

"12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.


" by the measure you use, it will be measured unto you"

v 14-15 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

luke 6:37-38 "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

matthew 18:21-35 "21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. [FONT=Arimo, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]( see the parable of the unforgivng servant and notice the condlusion

[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]35[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


but were already forgiven by the cross?romans 3:25 "[/FONT]Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

hebrews 9:15 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


His doctrine in the 4 gospels are for those who believe in Him, our forgiveness is found in the gospel teachings of " be merciful, forgive, dont Judge......for by the measure you use it will be measured to you.

 

[followjesus]

Hi Undergrace,

Sorry, but I was not splicing.

Salvation is spoken of in scripture as I am saved, I'm being saved, and I will be saved.

Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Paul is speaking to brethren in the faith. He's not talking to those without Christ. He's cautioning them to continue in the faith....to not allow their hearts to become evil so as to fall away from the living God. If it's not possible, why the warning?

But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, while it is said,“Today if you hear His voice,
DO not harden your hearts, as when they provoked ME.”

Paul's exhorting the believers to encourage each other each day. Why? So that they won't become hardened by sin's deceitfulness. So they won't get carried away, fall away by unbelief. That's what the deceitfulness of sin can and will do if we carry on in sin. It will harden our hearts and we'll become unfaithful.

We are partakers of Christ IF we carry on in faith. It's not a done deal. We're being saved for the rest of our life. We can jump off at any time during our lifetime.

In chapter 4 verse 3 is a continuation of chapter 3. It doesn't void what was just said. Those who continue in their faith, those who continue believing WILL enter that rest.

But not those who fall away from the living God, by not continuing in belief. Sin's deceitfulness will harden their hearts and they will fall away from faith.

Those who heed Paul's warning persevering in faith and continuing on in their belief will enter God's rest.

amen
revelation 14:3 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


rest is found in the soul, and in the promised land to come

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Matthew 6:9-13New International Version (NIV)

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.’

Jesus was the final atonement for sin past, present, future.

So why pray for forgiveness?

Im still a little gray in this area. Why are we told to pray this way when in

Hebrews 7
27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

So why pray for forgiveness or does it have something to do with deliberate sin?

Hebrews 10
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

Do we pray for forgiveness to give acknowledgment to our sins we know of so that we dont fall into a habit of them and also to strengthen our will to resist them and flee from them?

 

[followjesus]

bro to understand Hebrews look to the Law, leviticus is a major key

concerning hebrews 7:27 its referring to the aaronic preisthood where arron needed to sacrifice foirt for Himself, and then for the people. check out leviticus 16 and really the whole Law when hebrews isnt jiving, it truly reveals the meaning of Hebrews, because Hebrews is a contrast between the new testament, and the old. it shows us how Jesus has fulfilled the priesthood, only in the order of the heavenly melchezidek of the bred and wine, and that aarons preisthood was only temporary, the shedding of the animals blood only a pattern.

when the people sinned sins that werent punished by death, each year the atonement was made and in order for aaron to enter the holy of holies where the glory of God was above the ark, he had to sacrifice each year for himself and then the people. Jesus sacrifice was once for all time. this doesnt mean were already forgiven, but that our forgiveness now, is in the order of melchezidek ( Jesus ) Hebrews 7:12 "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


were under Jesus priesthood in the order of melchezidek, so therefore our forgiveness isnt to sacrifice spotless animals, but ours is given in the gospel by our priest Jesus " i desire mercy, not sacrifice"

we forgive others like our priest taught, and His sacrifice is sufficient, if we do not forgive others, its as if were under the Law and refusing to offer the required sacrifice. Our sacrifice is to follow the gospel, " be merciful and you will receive mercy, forgive and you will be forgiven, give and it will be given unto you" the priesthood changed when Jesus spoke " repent for the kingdom of Heaven is near" He began giving the true Law of spirit, the witness for us, rather than against us. notice how contrary the gospel is to the mosaic Law. its because its a whole new order. the High order of Melchezidek in the time before the mosaic law ever was, based on the faith of abram.

Leviticus 16:2-6 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat. 3Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering. 4He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on. 5And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house.

 

[graceNpeace]

Matthew 6:9-13New International Version (NIV)

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.’

Jesus was the final atonement for sin past, present, future.

So why pray for forgiveness?

Come on boys and girls, this is 101 stuff!

This prayer for forgiveness is not about justification before God (if indeed we are already a Christian).

Look at the whole verse: 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. Matt 6:12

We are part of the family of God. We have been adopted, as per Rom 8:15:

For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Matt 6:12 has nothing to do with praying again and again to God to forgive us our sins for the purpose of restoring our salvation or re-saving us.
No, the second part of the verse is the key to understanding what is being communicated.
We are to forgive those who have sinned against us, as well as to pray for forgiveness.
Why?

In order to restore fellowship.
And the same understanding applies to the first part of verse 12.
When we sin we do not lose our salvation, in the context of Roman 8:15 we do not lose our sonship, but in the same way that when a natural son does wrong the relationship with his father is disturbed. It takes that son to admit his error and commit to changing his ways to restore fellowship with his father. However at no time is he ever NOT his father's son.

On a human level forgiving others does not always restore fellowship, but, by forgiving others the door is always ajar for that restoration to occur.

In order to mature.
It often takes a lot of courage firstly to forgive others for real wrong's committed against us.
It also takes plenty of courage to admit when are wrong.
Both are crucial parts of what is termed sanctification - a process of modelling our lives and spirits on Jesus Christ - which definitely begins in this lifetime but is not completed in this lifetime.

If we are really honest with ourselves it is very likely that this is the area in which we struggle the most - forgiving others and asking for forgiveness.
Yet, the very struggle we have with forgiveness holds the key for great spiritual maturity.
Sometimes we just need to quietly reflect on the enormity of what Jesus Christ did on the cross for us:

But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.Is 55:3

 

[Rockrz]

Come on boys and girls, this is 101 stuff!

But, the false grace people are out there beyond what God teaches in His Word cause they be cherry pickers not accepting ALL of what God teaches.

 

[graceNpeace]

But, the false grace people are out there beyond what God teaches in His Word cause they be cherry pickers not accepting ALL of what God teaches.

So who exactly are the "false grace people"?
You quoted me to make an accusation so are you directing accusing me of been an heretic?

 

[followjesus]

But, the false grace people are out there beyond what God teaches in His Word cause they be cherry pickers not accepting ALL of what God teaches.

or its a lack of understanding. like the comment above notice the Long explanation of why jesus plain words just arent for chrisitans its as if they have found a different gospel because of the dangers of not gong through Jesus, instead looking to paul

2 peter 3:16-17 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. "

cant imagine the warning about Jesus Words anywhere in scripture...quite the opposite really

2 john 1:9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son

1 timothy 6:3 -5"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words.......

truly a blinding doctrine the gog, very subtle and very circular in its ways of omitting the Living word. always an alternate explaination other than the gospel " these words you Hear are not mine, they Belong to God" seems Jesus said that many times.....

 

[graceNpeace]

or its a lack of understanding. like the comment above notice the Long explanation of why jesus plain words just arent for chrisitans its as if they have found a different gospel because of the dangers of not gong through Jesus, instead looking to paul

2 peter 3:16-17 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. "

cant imagine the warning about Jesus Words anywhere in scripture...quite the opposite really

2 john 1:9 "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son

1 timothy 6:3 -5"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words.......

truly a blinding doctrine the gog, very subtle and very circular in its ways of omitting the Living word. always an alternate explaination other than the gospel " these words you Hear are not mine, they Belong to God" seems Jesus said that many times.....

And you are just criticizing.
Isn't there something in Scripture about a hollow gong...

And you do not have courage to address me directly.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Come on boys and girls, this is 101 stuff!

This prayer for forgiveness is not about justification before God (if indeed we are already a Christian).

Look at the whole verse: 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. Matt 6:12

We are part of the family of God. We have been adopted, as per Rom 8:15:

For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

Matt 6:12 has nothing to do with praying again and again to God to forgive us our sins for the purpose of restoring our salvation or re-saving us.
No, the second part of the verse is the key to understanding what is being communicated.
We are to forgive those who have sinned against us, as well as to pray for forgiveness.
Why?

In order to restore fellowship.
And the same understanding applies to the first part of verse 12.
When we sin we do not lose our salvation, in the context of Roman 8:15 we do not lose our sonship, but in the same way that when a natural son does wrong the relationship with his father is disturbed. It takes that son to admit his error and commit to changing his ways to restore fellowship with his father. However at no time is he ever NOT his father's son.

On a human level forgiving others does not always restore fellowship, but, by forgiving others the door is always ajar for that restoration to occur.

In order to mature.
It often takes a lot of courage firstly to forgive others for real wrong's committed against us.
It also takes plenty of courage to admit when are wrong.
Both are crucial parts of what is termed sanctification - a process of modelling our lives and spirits on Jesus Christ - which definitely begins in this lifetime but is not completed in this lifetime.

If we are really honest with ourselves it is very likely that this is the area in which we struggle the most - forgiving others and asking for forgiveness.
Yet, the very struggle we have with forgiveness holds the key for great spiritual maturity.
Sometimes we just need to quietly reflect on the enormity of what Jesus Christ did on the cross for us:

But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.Is 55:3

I wasn't pushing lost salvation with this question but just was wondering how the prayer relates to forgiveness.

But I understand now its just a way to restore fellowship.

But I do believe if we didn't practice this restoration. Sin would only become easier as the relationship would be damaged. Which very well could lead to a falling away.

 

[graceNpeace]

I wasn't pushing lost salvation with this question but just was wondering how the prayer relates to forgiveness.

But I understand now its just a way to restore fellowship.

But I do believe if we didn't practice this restoration. Sin would only become easier as the relationship would be damaged. Which very well could lead to a falling away.

Thanks for the feedback!
And, yes your conclusions do have merit!

 

[followjesus]

And you are just criticizing.
Isn't there something in Scripture about a hollow gong...

And you do not have courage to address me directly.

what would you like to be addressed about?

 

[followjesus]

And you are just criticizing.
Isn't there something in Scripture about a hollow gong...

And you do not have courage to address me directly.

matthew 6:14-15 "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

there please explain how this is changed with some scripture


notice Hes speaking to children of God, saying " your Father in Heaven"

 

[graceNpeace]

what would you like to be addressed about?

Rockrz quoted me and posted a completely unfounded accusation and you came in, large as life, and supported an ad hominem attack.

 

[followjesus]

Rockrz quoted me and posted a completely unfounded accusation and you came in, large as life, and supported an ad hominem attack.

you consider that an attack ? actually i was defending you. a lack of understanding v what He said. but listen, i appologize to you, it wasnt my intention to offend you , but i obviously did speak out of line, sincerly appologize for my offense.

i try to understand that because im thick skinned others arent, so i do apologize and Hope your able to accept that.

 

[BillG]

I agree but this still wasnt an example of a man who mentally denying Christ and who he was.

Peter did out of fear not because he truly felt that way but was scared and in fact that lack of faith haunted him to tears in the last conversation between him and Jesus.

Thats not a example that scripture describes as falling away

Hm I didn't post it for that reason.

I was using it to show the opposite.

 

[graceNpeace]

you consider that an attack ? actually i was defending you. a lack of understanding v what He said. but listen, i appologize to you, it wasnt my intention to offend you , but i obviously did speak out of line, sincerly appologize for my offense.

i try to understand that because im thick skinned others arent, so i do apologize and Hope your able to accept that.

I consider what Rockrz posted an attack.
But, thank you for the apology!

 

[followjesus]

I consider what Rockrz posted an attack.
But, thank you for the apology!

well i was a little out of line snd thanks for accepting God bless you.....heres a small gift [video=youtube;wjLlLPZderk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjLlLPZderk&list=PLDs2z6drCTn94L2foXqY2WjI-AjkC_gt2&index=4[/video]