The finished work of the cross ?

[miknik5]

Are you implying the cross alone did all these things? I think we miss the fact, that it is the tomb, where resurrection power flows from, not the Cross. Was SIN defeated at the cross or when Christ raised from the dead?

its the cross

one can't do anything unless HIS BLOOD is covering us

if HE hasn't washed and covered us, were not justified in the sight of GOD

You said it's the empty tomb where "resurrection power" flows from?

because HE is still in the tomb?

or because HE has been raised for our justification

but again if we haven't FIRST been washed and covered then we really have no part with HIM and are not baptized into HiIM in order to be raised a new creation IN HIM born of HIS LIFE-GIVING SPIRIT

 

[miknik5]

a. JESUS is the Source of the faith that SAVES US
b. JESUS is the FINISHER of the faith that SAVES US
c. THE FAITH that JESUS STARTS and FININISHES WITH US is A GIFT
d. IT IS THIS GIFT OF FAITH that SAVED US

If this is not faith of Jesus only saves you what is it?


Whats next DC, you posting 2 TIm 2.13 to try to prove your straw man out?

You totally push and sell the gospel, that no saving faith comes from man at al...=because you view even exercising simple faith is a work that takes away form what Jesus did, yet God said without faith you cannot what!?!?!? Please him...

Romans 10 is fine

GOD sees where no one else can see

 

[miknik5]

Agreed,
The cross is the starting point, not the finishing point.

Jesus exclaimed the deliverance and forgiveness of SIN was finished on the cross.

We strand millions at the cross, that get mental assent they are "saved", but until you make the decision to get on the cross with Jesus, nothing changes.

Dying to self is the greatest obstacle to salvation and being born again. You cannot be be born again until you have died with Christ and risen into new life with him

Most will argue this right out of their way, but the fact remains, you cannot be a new creature until you die.

We believe ONE died
therefore all were dead

how can what is dead be made alive?

can one quicken themself?

 

[miknik5]

Agreed,
The cross is the starting point, not the finishing point.

Jesus exclaimed the deliverance and forgiveness of SIN was finished on the cross.

We strand millions at the cross, that get mental assent they are "saved", but until you make the decision to get on the cross with Jesus, nothing changes.

Dying to self is the greatest obstacle to salvation and being born again. You cannot be be born again until you have died with Christ and risen into new life with him

Most will argue this right out of their way, but the fact remains, you cannot be a new creature until you die.

How can we get on the cross with HIM?

HE's not there
HE is risen!


HE didn't say get on the cross with ME

HE said pick up your cross (of flesh) and follow HIM

HE is leading us by LIVING WATER unto the PRESENCE of THE FATHER

Our work is to remain in HIM and walk by faith and not by sight

that's a stilling of the flesh and that's a very hard "work" because it is more a passive work than an active one


Do you understand?

we come to rest in HIS SOVEREIGNTY in all things

the "righteous" shall live by faith
and the "righteous" will testify that it wasn't anything in themselves that made them "righteous"

but it was HIS ROYAL ROBE AND COVERING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS

 

[UnderGrace]

EXACTLY!!! and AMEN!!

the "righteous" shall live by faith
and the "righteous" will testify that it wasn't anything in themselves that made them "righteous"

How can we get on the cross with HIM?

HE's not there
HE is risen!


HE didn't say get on the cross with ME

HE said pick up your cross (of flesh) and follow HIM

HE is leading us by LIVING WATER unto the PRESENCE of THE FATHER

Our work is to remain in HIM and walk by faith and not by sight

that's a stilling of the flesh and that's a very hard "work" because it is more a passive work than an active one


Do you understand?

we come to rest in HIS SOVEREIGNTY in all things

the "righteous" shall live by faith
and the "righteous" will testify that it wasn't anything in themselves that made them "righteous"

but it was HIS ROYAL ROBE AND COVERING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS

 

[followjesus]

Of course we have a part. He leads us by His Voice (Spirit) within and sometimes by His written "rhema" Word. We believe Him. If He says to do something...we do. It's the working out of our salvation.

We've already obeyed the gospel when we are born again...and Jesus said to wait for His Spirit...so we are also baptized in Holy Spirit.

A lot of people disobey the second part.

so then we first obey the gospel ? meaning the gospel of the Kingdom of God including the teachings of Jesus Christ?

 

[Desertsrose]

When Jesus said, "It is finished", That was the grand finale. I believe He was taking His full life and ministry into account as well when He said, "It is finished."

His whole life, from His birth to His death is a fulfillment of so many prophecies about Him. He fulfilled each and every one of them.

Every part of the life of Jesus, each step He took led Him to the next stage of His life and each part was important and necessary. To just say the finished work of the cross leaves off so much of the life and ministry of Jesus. It all had to happen exactly as it did. Leave out any one part and we don't have the cross.

I believe it to be a cliche that has lost it's meaning. We have a lot of Christianese within Christianity that ends up loosing its meaning after awhile. I believe it diminishes the power of the cross. It nulls and voids what the cross truly represents.

The life of Jesus didn't end with the cross, the full force of the Gospel message includes the resurrection, because without it, there's no life in Christ's death.

I'm probably not explaining this very well and of course I'm not a scholar, but this phrase has always bothered me because it just seems like the fullness of what Christ has done for us throughout His full life and ministry has been boiled down to that phrase and it just doesn't say what it needs to say.

Okay, that's my opinion.

 

[followjesus]

I believe our part is to......

"Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (Isa 55:6-7)

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (Matt 6:33)

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jer 29:13)

We find him in His Word because He is the Word (John 1:1-5)

As you have faith in God's Word, Put your foot in the Jordan and watch the waters part. Our focus is not on doing but believing God. It is God who changes our lives as we have faith in His promises.

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2Pet 1:4)

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1John 1:9)

I can get with that

so we believe the gospel correct those things Jesus said? and because we believe Him we then understand this is what makes us doers of the word.....

matthew 7:24-27 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

He says so many things Like this in the gospel, he teaches things and then makes the point, do these things. and i agree we need to believe Him.

so then when we see His warnings Like matthew 25 we can believe those things as well, and they will produce the right thinking in us, because the Word of God, produces doers of the Word of God. am i understanding you ?

so when we see scriptures later like this

james 1:21-25 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed

we understand James is speaking from the Words of Jesus Christ the gospel, and the perfect Law of liberty would be a reference to john 8:31-32, which again Is Jesus saying " if you really keep my words, you are my disciples indeed, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free."

so really, isnt our part to do the things He says to do, because He says this so often? and if we believe Him, thats where the truth comes to light and the freedom begins, bringing sinners to repentance and right living as is the purpose of the gospel

 

[miknik5]

yeah i see much more as you are saying here, i believe that the cross is a call for repentance, and obedience with all of the heart. in that way its sufficient, if we take it to heart and follow the gospel. thanks for the input i couldnt make anything out really of most of the other comments. which is why i asked in the op for the scriptures that support the "rest in the finished work, do nothing or you are trying to save yourself" stuff that seems so popular.

i see much more what you are saying here. Thanks for the input, God bless

Do you overlook who it was that was on the cross?


its the cut to the heart revelation of HIS laying down the life for us so as to be for us OUR LIFE and OUR HOPE

Thats what we take to heart and that's what brings us to the knee buckling/ heart rending truth of the GOSPEL

just how far all had fallen short of the HOLY GLORY of GOD and just how much all were in need of a savior


This is what leads us to repentence and it's our love for HIM that brings us to obedience to OUR LORD

 

[followjesus]

When Jesus said, "It is finished", That was the grand finale. I believe He was taking His full life and ministry into account as well when He said, "It is finished."

His whole life, from His birth to His death is a fulfillment of so many prophecies about Him. He fulfilled each and every one of them.

Every part of the life of Jesus, each step He took led Him to the next stage of His life and each part was important and necessary. To just say the finished work of the cross leaves off so much of the life and ministry of Jesus. It all had to happen exactly as it did. Leave out any one part and we don't have the cross.

I believe it to be a cliche that has lost it's meaning. We have a lot of Christianese within Christianity that ends up loosing its meaning after awhile. I believe it diminishes the power of the cross. It nulls and voids what the cross truly represents.

The life of Jesus didn't end with the cross, the full force of the Gospel message includes the resurrection, because without it, there's no life in Christ's death.

I'm probably not explaining this very well and of course I'm not a scholar, but this phrase has always bothered me because it just seems like the fullness of what Christ has done for us throughout His full life and ministry has been boiled down to that phrase and it just doesn't say what it needs to say.

Okay, that's my opinion.

i agree, which is why im tryoing to figure out the finished works of the cross being everything, and leaving out the gospel preached By Jesus that is our freedom from sin, while the crucifixion is our atonement. I look at it like the 4 gospels are the finished work, Jesus says that He finished the work God gave Him to do, before He even went to the cross in the midst of explaining that He gave His followers Gods word, that the words He gave sanctified them.

john 17:4 "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

and then after the cross, He says " go teach the world to obey the things i taught you." so im the same i take the finished work of the cross to leave out the spirit and Life of the gospel, which is the word of God. when i see everything Jesus teaches of His words, He says they are freedom from sin, spirit and Life, the truth from God , He says they will never pass away, He says they will bring the Holy ghost, he says so many things regarding the things He said and then send His disciples out into the world to teach those things to the world.

its why im confused about the cross changing anything He said, i rather Look at His crucifixion and resurrection, as the sealing of His words as moses sealed the law in the old testament. which as hebrews is clear was only a foretelling shadow of the good things to come

Hebrews 9:15-22 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. ( to me this is the purpose of His death to put the new testament of the gospel into place and authority)

(and then it goes on to use the example of the first testament) 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


so isnt the gospel what the blood seals, and binds to believers as the blood bound the Law of moses to the isrealites?


so really the finished work is all of the 4 gospels, its the provision everything He said, and everything He did to make it eternal and fulfill the old, set in place the new ? then to look at the communion he taught " this is the blood of the covenant, and this is my body which is broken for you"


i think much the same that its not only about Jesus dying and being raised n hebrews again were told about the resurrection, being the means by Which Jesus became the High priest " by the power of an indestructable Life" in the order of melchezidek High priest long before the order of aaron was given, or before the Law ever was. this is why i just dont really see how the work of the cross is our saving Grace, but rather a part of it, like the sacrificial system was in the law, a part of it. that didnt mean the people werent still taught by God and commanded to follow His words.

 

[miknik5]

so then we first obey the gospel ? meaning the gospel of the Kingdom of God including the teachings of Jesus Christ?

Who is the king and how do the subjects enter in?

 

[mailmandan]

so then we first obey the gospel ? meaning the gospel of the Kingdom of God including the teachings of Jesus Christ?

In Romans 10:16, we read: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Refusing to believe the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to obey the gospel.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes.. (Romans 1:16). We obey the gospel by choosing to believe/trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

 

[followjesus]

Do you overlook who it was that was on the cross?


its the cut to the heart revelation of HIS laying down the life for us so as to be for us OUR LIFE and OUR HOPE

Thats what we take to heart and that's what brings us to the knee buckling/ heart rending truth of the GOSPEL

just how far all had fallen short of the HOLY GLORY of GOD and just how much all were in need of a savior


This is what leads us to repentence and it's our love for HIM that brings us to obedience to OUR LORD

naw i believed He died for my sins when i heard it as a child, so im not overlooking it at all. im just not seeing the scriptures that say " the cross is everything, or the words of Jesus dont apply because of it, or " the gospel changed because of the cross. which seems to be the thinking of several people.

i think perhaps you are not realizing that if you have the holy spirit, you are created to obey God and not insist it has nothing to do with it. also maybe missing the new covenant spoken By Jesus, which is where the Holy ghost comes from.

what do you make of these?

Hebrews 9:15-22 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. ( to me this is the purpose of His death to put the new testament of the gospel into place and authority)

(and then it goes on to use the example of the first testament) 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[followjesus]

In Romans 10:16, we read: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Refusing to believe the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to obey the gospel.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes.. (Romans 1:16). We obey the gospel by choosing to believe/trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

so thats your explaination of the gospel, why does Jesus say its all about His words so many times? and expressly says keep my words, obey my commands and you will receive the holy spirit, keep my sayings and you will be set free...ect..ect.... and How do you define faith?

i guess im wondering what changes Jesus words from what is plainly written, to something that is no where to be found?

 

[followjesus]

In Romans 10:16, we read: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We can clearly see that we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Refusing to believe the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) is refusing to obey the gospel.

The gospel is a message of grace to be received through faith. The gospel is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation.

The gospel simply sets forth Christ crucified, buried and risen (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes.. (Romans 1:16). We obey the gospel by choosing to believe/trust in Christ's finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation.

also where does this fit

hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

 

[followjesus]

Who is the king and how do the subjects enter in?

Jesus is the King, and according to His decrees in the gospel would be the "how to's"

being that He is the mediator of the new covenant, and the only source of salvation. wouldnt what He , the King said be the things we should heed? or does the King not have a say about His kingdom?

seems His main point is to teach the things of God, and then insist " Do these things, keep my words, believe in me My words are not my own, they belong to Him who sent me, "if you Love me, obey my commands and I will pray the Father and He will send the spoirit of truth...the holy Ghost to teach you and remind you of everything i have said to you"

seems it still continues the same given the great commission after the cross, " go into all nations teachings them, baptizing them and teaching them to obey everything i have commanded you"

Id personally say thats the entrance, whatever Jesus says about it

 

[graceNpeace]

Jesus is the King, and according to His decrees in the gospel would be the "how to's"

being that He is the mediator of the new covenant, and the only source of salvation. wouldnt what He , the King said be the things we should heed? or does the King not have a say about His kingdom?

seems His main point is to teach the things of God, and then insist " Do these things, keep my words, believe in me My words are not my own, they belong to Him who sent me, "if you Love me, obey my commands and I will pray the Father and He will send the spoirit of truth...the holy Ghost to teach you and remind you of everything i have said to you"

seems it still continues the same given the great commission after the cross, " go into all nations teachings them, baptizing them and teaching them to obey everything i have commanded you"

Id personally say thats the entrance, whatever Jesus says about it

So....

If that is all it is about then then Jesus going to the cross was the most gigantic blunder in history!!!??!!

 

[followjesus]

So....

If that is all it is about then then Jesus going to the cross was the most gigantic blunder in history!!!??!!

naw no because His death is part of the gospel, im saying the corss is a part of it it doesnt omit the rest. he was also saying He would die and be raised to Life in His words in fact God was saying He would send Him all along, i think maybe check out hebrews 9, and realize the shedding of the blood occurs after the reading of the Law, in order to seal the law. and that its a shadow of what Jesus would do.

he spoke the gospel, then died to remit the sins of the first covenant, and seal His word to the people who would believe in its place and you have the new covenant sealed with the blood of The testator

Hebrews 9:15-22 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[LoveGodForever]

I can get with that

so we believe the gospel correct those things Jesus said? and because we believe Him we then understand this is what makes us doers of the word.....

matthew 7:24-27 "Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

He says so many things Like this in the gospel, he teaches things and then makes the point, do these things. and i agree we need to believe Him.

so then when we see His warnings Like matthew 25 we can believe those things as well, and they will produce the right thinking in us, because the Word of God, produces doers of the Word of God. am i understanding you ?

so when we see scriptures later like this

james 1:21-25 "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed

we understand James is speaking from the Words of Jesus Christ the gospel, and the perfect Law of liberty would be a reference to john 8:31-32, which again Is Jesus saying " if you really keep my words, you are my disciples indeed, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free."

so really, isnt our part to do the things He says to do, because He says this so often? and if we believe Him, thats where the truth comes to light and the freedom begins, bringing sinners to repentance and right living as is the purpose of the gospel

Absolutely! The Word of God makes us doers of the Word as we believe God.... there is life in those words

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matt 4:4)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him (the Word) was life; and the life was the light of men." (John 1:1-4)

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us." (Eph 3:20)

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1Thess 2:13)

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phill 2:12-13)

As we believe His Word he makes us doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving our own selves. Amen!

God's blessing to all

 

[graceNpeace]

naw no because His death is part of the gospel, im saying the corss is a part of it it doesnt omit the rest. he was also saying He would die and be raised to Life in His words in fact God was saying He would send Him all along, i think maybe check out hebrews 9, and realize the shedding of the blood occurs after the reading of the Law, in order to seal the law. and that its a shadow of what Jesus would do.

he spoke the gospel, then died to remit the sins of the first covenant, and seal His word to the people who would believe in its place and you have the new covenant sealed with the blood of The testator

Hebrews 9:15-22 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

What, exactly is that testament?
What, exactly is the Gospel?

You see, you are using all sorts of terminology, but by reading what you are saying it is clear that either you are a poor communicator (just stating as a observation) or you really don't understand what these things mean.

Jesus Christ did not come to waste His life on the cross merely to replace on set of rules with another!

I hope with all that is in me that you do get the reality of the cross, but for now I am not convinced.
Praying for you!